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East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

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DarloRich

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Isn't Bletchley essentially 'MK South Parkway, for East / West purposes? Given a decent frequent shuttle bus to central and other parts of MK, would that not do for MK?

just change trains and get the bus from central MK - the service is better than from Beltchley - although if E-W actually provides a station entrance facing the town centre that might allow for a proper bus interchange on that side of the station. ( Benchley station faces Old Blethcley, rather than the current town centre that must date from the 1960's)

Where would this new southern E/W non stop line to Bedford go, exactly, crayons invited? Do either of you have a feeling for that?

The big problem ( beyond the massive cost) is that the new route doesn't serve anywhere between MK & Bedford. I doubt you can get into Olney or Newport Pagnell and i am unsure how the benefit of this line would be calculated when the route beyond Bedford isnt known.

The mini crayon idea is to create the third side of the triangle between Denbigh Hall Junction and the Marston Vale line and have trains run to MLK and reverse. That option requires the demolition of a trading estate, quite a bit of earth works and the removal of a depot and stabling sidings.

If we are going for full on crayoning a new line would have to swing away from the WCML somewhere between Wolverton/Castlethorpe/Hanslope and follow the approximate route of the A422. You have got to cross the M1 and miss all the lakes/flood plains to the north of MK then cross the Great Ouse, swing round the top of Newport Pagnell, North of Cranfield and then off towards Kempston Hardwick, crossing the A421. Or build a tunnel from somewhere near Woburn Sands or just not bother.

For the full super crayon approach you could also put in a triangular MML/Marston Vale junction somewhere between Stewartby and Kempston Hardwick

My money is on: Not bother.
 
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A0wen

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Clearly a new line would involve a substantial cost. In terms of benefits, apart from direct access to central MK (for inbound journeys for shopping / centrally located jobs), the main benefit would be direct interchange to "intercity" services along the west coast to Manchester / Birmingham / Liverpool / Glasgow / etc. For anyone coming across from Oxford / Bicester / Aylesbury / Bedford, being able to change directly onto these services would make these journeys much more likely to be completed by rail (a double change at Bletchley + Milton Keynes central is far less likely to be used).

You're barking up the wrong tree with this one.

People from Oxford for the WCML destinations can already do most of those with one change using XC services - indeed some places are achieved without a change.

People from Aylesbury will be in a better position when the planned Aylesbury - MK service is introduced. Aylesbury services aren't planned to go elsewhere as I understand it.

People from Bedford wanting WCML destinations are already better off travelling north on the MML then changing at Leicester, Nottingham or Sheffield in most cases.

Don't forget the WCML stopping pattern means MKC currently only gets the Scotland via Birmingham / Birmingham terminators, Manchester and North Wales services. It doesn't get Liverpools, which are mostly first stop Stafford.
 

A0wen

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The mini crayon idea is to create the third side of the triangle between Denbigh Hall Junction and the Marston Vale line and have trains run to MLK and reverse. That option requires the demolition of a trading estate, quite a bit of earth works and the removal of a depot and stabling sidings.

If we are going for full on crayoning a new line would have to swing away from the WCML somewhere between Wolverton/Castlethorpe/Hanslope and follow the approximate route of the A422. You have got to cross the M1 and miss all the lakes/flood plains to the north of MK then cross the Great Ouse, swing round the top of Newport Pagnell, North of Cranfield and then off towards Kempston Hardwick, crossing the A421. Or build a tunnel from somewhere near Woburn Sands or just not bother.

For the full super crayon approach you could also put in a triangular MML/Marston Vale junction somewhere between Stewartby and Kempston Hardwick

My money is on: Not bother.

I think you mean MKC not MLK ?

That said, the rest of your post is spot on !
 

edwin_m

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There is precisely no sensible route out and across to the MML between MK and Northampton as even the most cursory look at a map shows.
...
- Diverge between Wolverton and Hanslope - That is flood plain and floods quite regularly. The logical line from there would also miss Olney - which is the only significant place in the area, so it would be a line serving nowhere in between.
...
MK future development is unlikely to be north for two reasons, 1 - the flood plain mentioned above and 2 - the fact that once you reach Stony Stratford you're over the county border into Northants.

The more likely development is on the south side from Bletchley towards the M1 - coincidentally the route of the existing Marston Vale line.

The big problem ( beyond the massive cost) is that the new route doesn't serve anywhere between MK & Bedford. I doubt you can get into Olney or Newport Pagnell and i am unsure how the benefit of this line would be calculated when the route beyond Bedford isnt known.

The mini crayon idea is to create the third side of the triangle between Denbigh Hall Junction and the Marston Vale line and have trains run to MLK and reverse. That option requires the demolition of a trading estate, quite a bit of earth works and the removal of a depot and stabling sidings.

If we are going for full on crayoning a new line would have to swing away from the WCML somewhere between Wolverton/Castlethorpe/Hanslope and follow the approximate route of the A422. You have got to cross the M1 and miss all the lakes/flood plains to the north of MK then cross the Great Ouse, swing round the top of Newport Pagnell, North of Cranfield and then off towards Kempston Hardwick, crossing the A421. Or build a tunnel from somewhere near Woburn Sands or just not bother.

For the full super crayon approach you could also put in a triangular MML/Marston Vale junction somewhere between Stewartby and Kempston Hardwick

My money is on: Not bother.
Like both of you I really can't see this happening. However Rob Brighouse is a former colleague of mine and though I didn't know him well I don't think he'd be floating an idea that is self-evidently impossible to anyone who examines it slightly more closely. So breaking out my own set of crayons (and based on Bing's OS mapping)...

I think it would be feasible to diverge just after leaving the MK built-up area north of Wolverton and then follow the Great Ouse valley, where possible on the lower slopes so as to avoid both the flood plain and the higher ground. It would pass somewhere near Haversham, cross the valley near Tyringham and pass near Emberton. The river then does a big loop to the north but there is the possibility of using some of the Olney-Bedford trackbed to cut off the corner, though it would a fair bit of earthwork to get it out of the valley near Clifton Pastures. The trackbed is built over where it crosses the A428 and possibly elsewhere, but isn't in an urban area so minor deviations are possible and might be worthwhile to smooth a couple of tight curves. It would fly over the MML (just about room between it and the A6) to descend on the "slow" side.

I agree it doesn't serve anywhere much in between (a parkway on the A509 would be a mile or so from Olney) but it's not intended to. And no doubt there are all sorts of difficulties, but in terms of buildability it doesn't seem drastically worse than the Bedford-Cambridge options they are also contemplating.

Clearly a new line would involve a substantial cost. In terms of benefits, apart from direct access to central MK (for inbound journeys for shopping / centrally located jobs), the main benefit would be direct interchange to "intercity" services along the west coast to Manchester / Birmingham / Liverpool / Glasgow / etc. For anyone coming across from Oxford / Bicester / Aylesbury / Bedford, being able to change directly onto these services would make these journeys much more likely to be completed by rail (a double change at Bletchley + Milton Keynes central is far less likely to be used). Having said that, the likelihood of a new line being built closely parallel to the existing Bedford - Bletchley line seems to be very low (and closing the existing Bedford - Bletchley line in favour of a new line would be very difficult). It's puzzling that someone connected to EW Rail appears to be discussing this option?!
I think the importance of intercity interchange at MK is overplayed. There is a good service from Bletchley to all stations as far as London and Birmingham, so going to MK only gives access to slightly faster trains or those that serve more distant destinations. I can't see many longer-distance interchanging journeys that wouldn't be quicker via other routes, especially after HS2 takes some of those long-distance trains away from MK and possibly allows others to call at Bletchley as well.
 

HowardGWR

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If the triangle at Bletchley were created (reversal at MKC idea), the level crossings on the existing line would still form an impediment. I thought Mr Brighouse was suggesting a route that would be a new one diverging from Fenny Stratford eastwards, so presumably north of the existing line but not by much?

Edit: Looking at the map, it would have to weave both south and north of the present line wouldn't it?
 

A0wen

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If the triangle at Bletchley were created (reversal at MKC idea), the level crossings on the existing line would still form an impediment. I thought Mr Brighouse was suggesting a route that would be a new one diverging from Fenny Stratford eastwards, so presumably north of the existing line but not by much?

Edit: Looking at the map, it would have to weave both south and north of the present line wouldn't it?

I don't think there's a viable alternative formation between Bletchley and Woburn Sands - and there are three l-cs on that, effectively one at each station. None are 'easy' to fix - the 'easiest' is probably Bow Brickhill where the l-c could be replaced with an overbridge.

Fenny's is on a road with no space to put in an over-bridge - ditto Woburn Sands. After Woburn Sands there's probably two or three options for a route heading North East towards Bedford which could be built without the l-cs but it won't be cheap......
 

cle

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Once HS2 opens, the WCML will be a very different place, with a lot more trains stopping at Milton Keynes. Some have said all trains might stop.

Compared to today - that is 2 x Manchester, 2 x Birmingham, 1 x Liverpool and 1 x Glasgow which might stop. Plus random extras. Which makes it about 10-11 fast trains per hour. Arguably 2-3 of those calling at Bletchley instead would not disadvantage MKC badly, but might offer good E/W connections from either side. Not to mention helping the growing MK urban area not be so centralised and supporting the development sprawl.
 

route:oxford

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For anyone coming across from Oxford / Bicester / Aylesbury / Bedford, being able to change directly onto these services would make these journeys much more likely to be completed by rail (a double change at Bletchley + Milton Keynes central is far less likely to be used).

I, and quite a few others, are rather looking forward to having the opportunity to take the train to MK and grabbing a fast Virgin Northbound and Vice Versa.

The fastest service at, 4 hours from Glasgow to Milton Keynes, is very enticing indeed.

If an OA operator could get their paws on a few paths and tilting units, I suspect an Edinburgh or Glasgow to Oxford/Reading service that took 4h35/4h50m would be very popular indeed.
 

hooverboy

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I think the importance of intercity interchange at MK is overplayed. There is a good service from Bletchley to all stations as far as London and Birmingham, so going to MK only gives access to slightly faster trains or those that serve more distant destinations. I can't see many longer-distance interchanging journeys that wouldn't be quicker via other routes, especially after HS2 takes some of those long-distance trains away from MK and possibly allows others to call at Bletchley as well.

it's not just about intercity connectivity.In terms of employment,recreation and commercial activity MK is vastly bigger than bletchley,so you need to cater for those folks who would be prepared to spend an 3/4 an hour a day commuting from bedford to MK,but 1hr+ eats into time otherwise to be spent with family etc etc.

IMHO intercity connectivity is VERY important,but stuff like smooth transit MK to cambridge for an IT/pharma guy doing a job is equally so.
for well heeled professionals (lets say take home pay circa £40-50kpa as such from a housing perspective:
1)cambridge is too expensive- average house is not far off london prices
2)bletchley is a dump!
3)mk -is in part quite nice,but would take too long via train, other option is car but the roads are mostly gridlocked.
 

HowardGWR

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From the above, it seems that the third leg of the Bletchley triangle (MKC - Bedford) is that which is required. It would also not mean much extra time for E-W trains also to reverse at MKC, but with several advantages for most pax.
 

Bald Rick

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Disclaimer: I don’t know the scheme well, but I do know the process for getting new railways approved (reasonably well) and some of the people involved in EWR (very well).

To get any new line built will require either legislation (like HS2, or Crossrail) or an order under the Transport and Works Act (which for a long line would be very significant). To progress either, you need to demonstrate that you have considered all reasonable alternatives.

Similarly, to get the business case approved you must demonstrate that you have considered all reasonable alternatives.

My personal view is that a new line from MK to Bedford is being examined as a reasonable alternative, and is most likely to demonstrate that, actually, it is unreasonable.
 
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gingerheid

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MK is so spread out that there's probably going to be a journey to either station anyway! To an extent that may as well be Bletchley as anywhere else! Is there room for a nice big car park?
 

A0wen

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it's not just about intercity connectivity.In terms of employment,recreation and commercial activity MK is vastly bigger than bletchley,so you need to cater for those folks who would be prepared to spend an 3/4 an hour a day commuting from bedford to MK,but 1hr+ eats into time otherwise to be spent with family etc etc.

IMHO intercity connectivity is VERY important,but stuff like smooth transit MK to cambridge for an IT/pharma guy doing a job is equally so.
for well heeled professionals (lets say take home pay circa £40-50kpa as such from a housing perspective:
1)cambridge is too expensive- average house is not far off london prices
2)bletchley is a dump!
3)mk -is in part quite nice,but would take too long via train, other option is car but the roads are mostly gridlocked.

Anyone working in Cambridge is unlikely to choose MK to live, particularly given you don't need to travel far outside Cambridge to get reasonably priced housing - places on the A1 corridor between Biggleswade and Huntingdon, Royston, St Ives, Newmarket even Bury St Edmunds are no more expensive than MK and offer a decent journey into Cambridge.
 

A0wen

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I, and quite a few others, are rather looking forward to having the opportunity to take the train to MK and grabbing a fast Virgin Northbound and Vice Versa.

The fastest service at, 4 hours from Glasgow to Milton Keynes, is very enticing indeed.

If an OA operator could get their paws on a few paths and tilting units, I suspect an Edinburgh or Glasgow to Oxford/Reading service that took 4h35/4h50m would be very popular indeed.

Even on a 4hr MK - Glasgow service, you're looking at not a huge saving against a current Oxford - Glasgow given you'll be looking at 45 mins to cover Oxford - so call that 4h 45m.

Via Birmingham you're only looking at 30 mins more than the times you're talking about.

I can't believe there's anything like enough demand to justify additional Reading / Oxford services to Scotland. For people who are time pressured - particularly in the Reading area - will be more inclined to head to Heathrow and fly as that can get you to Scotland in under 2 hours.
 

Sean Emmett

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For people who are time pressured - particularly in the Reading area - will be more inclined to head to Heathrow and fly as that can get you to Scotland in under 2 hours.
Or change at Old Oak Common for HS2.

I suspect EW rail will still be very useful, providing there are sufficient services for decent connections at Milton Keynes, Bedford and with ECML.
 

A0wen

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Or change at Old Oak Common for HS2.

I suspect EW rail will still be very useful, providing there are sufficient services for decent connections at Milton Keynes, Bedford and with ECML.

I agree if you're travelling from Oxford / Bicester it will potentially provide useful links onto the MML and ECML - but the WCML argument is barking - already Oxford gets direct trains to Birmingham, Manchester, Crewe etc, which is exactly what MKC gets. The time of travel to MKC from Oxford is going to be comparable to Oxford - Birmingham International which then covers off the Scottish services.

That said, both the ECML and MML links will be compromised by where EWR links with them. In the case of the ECML it's going to be Sandy or somewhere like that, but the long distance services stop at Peterborough or Stevenage, necessitating a further change. Sandy will never justify replacing Peterborough or Stevenage stops. In the case of the MML, it's highly likely, going on a dead cert that once the Corby's are electric the long distance MML services i.e. Nottingham, Sheffield etc won't be stopping at so many places in order to speed up their journey times, so expect Market Harborough to be OK (because it can't be served by the Corby's), Kettering (because it will be the interchange to the Corby's) and Luton Airport - for the airport connection. Bedford won't figure.
 

InTheEastMids

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Anyone working in Cambridge is unlikely to choose MK to live, particularly given you don't need to travel far outside Cambridge to get reasonably priced housing

However, with people changing jobs more frequently, the death of corporate relocation deals, families balancing 2 careers, not wanting to disrupt family life and so on, there's a lot of people who simply wouldn't think of it this way.

Somebody working in biotech might think: "Well, from MK I could work for any number of companies in Cambridge, but also roles around Oxford and London are commutable. And my partner works in Northampton..."
 

A0wen

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However, with people changing jobs more frequently, the death of corporate relocation deals, families balancing 2 careers, not wanting to disrupt family life and so on, there's a lot of people who simply wouldn't think of it this way.

Somebody working in biotech might think: "Well, from MK I could work for any number of companies in Cambridge, but also roles around Oxford and London are commutable. And my partner works in Northampton..."

That identifies 1, maybe 2 people. Hardly enough to even begin to make a robust benefits case......
 

DarloRich

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My personal view is that a new line from MK to Bedford is being examined as a reasonable alternative, and is most likely to demonstrate that, actually, it is unreasonable.

is the correct answer.

it's not just about intercity connectivity.In terms of employment,recreation and commercial activity MK is vastly bigger than bletchley,so you need to cater for those folks who would be prepared to spend an 3/4 an hour a day commuting from bedford to MK,but 1hr+ eats into time otherwise to be spent with family etc etc.

IMHO intercity connectivity is VERY important,but stuff like smooth transit MK to cambridge for an IT/pharma guy doing a job is equally so.
for well heeled professionals (lets say take home pay circa £40-50kpa as such from a housing perspective:
1)cambridge is too expensive- average house is not far off london prices
2)bletchley is a dump!
3)mk -is in part quite nice,but would take too long via train, other option is car but the roads are mostly gridlocked.

wow. there is some wibble here.
 

cle

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It's not just about connectivity, but capacity. We are told that most of our railways are full and that XC cannot path more through Birmingham, Stafford etc... so this is about adding new services too, and frequency.

Yes Oxford has a service to Manchester, once an hour. But perhaps 30 minutes after that, a good connection at MKC gets you there not long after - and that ride is much quicker than from Birmingham, with less stops. It's about choice, and spreading demand. And who knows - perhaps there will be Reading - MKC - Manchester services which would definitely be preferable.

Equally, there might be Reading - Bletchley - Leicester/Nottingham/Sheffield services too. New opportunities, less people on the roads, relieving London and Birmingham stations, and choice/frequency. It's a new mainline and connector. Yes some journeys are duplicative, but that also provides resilience (see it as quadding), or removal of freight, or the chance to resignal/wire/update. So many advantages I could go on for days. But people are quibbling of micro issues like stopping patterns at Bedford. EWR will evolve a lot, and change the mainlines it connects also. We will just have to see how the market adapts, especially with such buoyant economies (and rail growth) in Reading, Oxford, MK and Cambridge.
 

D365

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Similarly, to get the business case approved you must demonstrate that you have considered all reasonable alternatives.

My personal view is that a new line from MK to Bedford is being examined as a reasonable alternative, and is most likely to demonstrate that, actually, it is unreasonable.

Thank you. That’s the information I gleaned from the talk I attended, but written more succinctly.
 

midlandred

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Although outside the scope of EWR2 the subject of Bicester London Road level crossing has been raised again.

Apparently Network Rail is working with Oxfordshire County Council on a solution and has provided this statement....

"The London Road Level Crossing in Bicester was upgraded as part of East West Rail Western Section Phase 1 and does not form part of EWR2 to which this consultation relates. Whilst the train services introduced by EWR2 will result in an increase of the barrier down time at this crossing, the overall duration of closure is still considered acceptable from an operational perspective.”

"Network Rail is working with Oxfordshire County Council in identifying technology that can be positioned at specific decision points and provides potential crossing users with live information on the position of the barriers. In the meantime, Network Rail is reviewing if any reasonable changes can be introduced to the signal control system for London Road to reduce the existing and anticipated future barrier down time."

I've not heard of "live information" as an option in this sort of situation; does anyone know where it is in use? And is this live information any use to pedestrians or cyclists?

I had occasion today to meet a Marylebone-Oxford train at Bicester Village, and took the opportunity to "time" the level crossing at London Road, as experience as a road user has shown seemingly long delays to traffic
The first amber light flashed and I took timings from there
The train was on the crossing 4 minutes 15 seconds after the first amber light, and the gates began to rise at 4 minutes 40 seconds
Bearing in mind the low speed of the train which had negotiated Bicester Chord and Gavray Junction before slowing for the station stop, the timings of the level crossing do seem slightly in excess what might be expected even allowing for safety considerations
Is there a "standard" to which this crossing is geared - or might there be a case for review?
 

edwin_m

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A "controlled" crossing (barriers go all the way across the road) has to be closed and proved clear before the signals can be cleared for an approaching train. For a fast train the crossing is closed when it is some distance off so it gets greens all the way through - but the train is travelling fast so doesn't take too long to travel that distance.

If the train is travelling more slowly it's possible to close the crossing later and the train will encounter one or more caution signals but is already below maximum speed so won't need to decelerate much for those signals. However this would depend on the signaller closing it at the optimum time, and there may have been other things they needed to attend to meaning they had to close it before that.
 
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I had occasion today to meet a Marylebone-Oxford train at Bicester Village, and took the opportunity to "time" the level crossing at London Road, as experience as a road user has shown seemingly long delays to traffic
The first amber light flashed and I took timings from there
The train was on the crossing 4 minutes 15 seconds after the first amber light, and the gates began to rise at 4 minutes 40 seconds
Bearing in mind the low speed of the train which had negotiated Bicester Chord and Gavray Junction before slowing for the station stop, the timings of the level crossing do seem slightly in excess what might be expected even allowing for safety considerations
Is there a "standard" to which this crossing is geared - or might there be a case for review?
I believe that NR are looking at this crossing to see if the strike-in point can be improved.
 

The Planner

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The strike in point is a long way back, a good 3 miles south of Bicester South Jn around the 5 mile post.
 

7ftBroad

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The western portion should end at Chippenham, platform doing nothing so ideal for turn around. Avoid calling at Didcot to save time. If and hopefully RWB station is built to east of town the service should stop here. This giving a service to connection for services at Swindon and Chippenham. Could also be useful for a line into a Watchfield. With military college and more house building going on. A park and ride could serve both Swindon and Oxford.
 

richieb1971

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Surprised that Bedford MK direct has come up in this thread. If so has to go north of Wolverton, round Haversham and join the old Northampton-Bedford alignment east of Olney. I don't understand what the fuss is about to get the Marston Vale up to 100mph or whatever. 70mph is going to get you from one end of the Marston Vale to the other in 17 minutes or so. I do agree that a loop between Bletchley-Bedford and MKC is a benefit to the plans.

All my wishes and hopes are based around a world where money grows on trees and people just do things because they can. Like they do in Dubai.
 
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