East West Rail Services

[CyrusWuff]

Mod note - moved from here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/east-west-rail-operations.246670/. Please keep this thread for non-speculative discussion

A new Service Group (HO05 - EWR) has been added to Chiltern's Track Access Agreement, coming into play no earlier than the December timetable change.

This allows for up to 33tpd between Milton Keynes Central and Oxford Mondays to Fridays, 36 on Saturdays and 29 on Sundays, with a further 2tpd (4 on Fridays, 1 on Sundays) between Bletchley High Level and Oxford.

In the reverse direction, it's 31tpd between Oxford and Milton Keynes Central Mondays to Fridays, 35 on Saturdays and 29 on Sundays, with a further 4tpd (6 on Fridays, 1 on Saturdays and Sundays) between Oxford and Bletchley High Level.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Mod note - moved from here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/east-west-rail-operations.246670/. Please keep this thread for non-speculative discussion

A new Service Group (HO05 - EWR) has been added to Chiltern's Track Access Agreement, coming into play no earlier than the December timetable change.

This allows for up to 33tpd between Milton Keynes Central and Oxford Mondays to Fridays, 36 on Saturdays and 29 on Sundays, with a further 2tpd (4 on Fridays, 1 on Sundays) between Bletchley High Level and Oxford.

In the reverse direction, it's 31tpd between Oxford and Milton Keynes Central Mondays to Fridays, 35 on Saturdays and 29 on Sundays, with a further 4tpd (6 on Fridays, 1 on Saturdays and Sundays) between Oxford and Bletchley High Level.

Just been looking at the diagrams loaded to RTT from December.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Oxford all day on 18/12/2024

Train information at Oxford all day on 18/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The first service seems to start very late in the day, with the final service relatively early.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just been looking at the diagrams loaded to RTT from December.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...24-12-18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

The first service seems to start very late in the day, with the final service relatively early.

They must not all be loaded yet, there should be 35 departures on a weekday

 

[DarloRich]

interesting stuff - thanks for sharing. i cant wait to be able to use these services instead of the 5 to get to Oxford! There seem to be a very high number of services which is pleasing.

 

[geoffk]

Not being familiar with the layout at MKC, I checked on line and see that platform 2A is a south-facing bay, presumably used by the Southern service from Croydon before it was cut back. RTT suggests this will be used by the Oxford service but there are also terminating locals from Euston which appear to use 2. I'll have to have a trip across when the new service starts.

 

[swt_passenger]

As it’s not easy to find, I thought I’d repeat the link to the track access application that I posted originally in the construction thread:

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Completed%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/2024/15.03.2024%20-%20Chiltern%20Railway%20Company%20-%20Section%2022%20-%2010th%20SA%20-%20Closes%2017.04.2024/10th%20SA%20Form%20P.pdf

 

[Julia]

interesting stuff - thanks for sharing. i cant wait to be able to use these services instead of the 5 to get to Oxford! There seem to be a very high number of services which is pleasing.

A half-hourly train service will be the death of the (soon to be hourly only off-peak) X5 west of MK... heading off-topic, but can only hope the eastern end is retained as a feeder into EWR pending the next phase (and perhaps reunite with the Cambridge-Bedford section?)

 

[Nottingham59]

So when will passenger services start? The NR press release says 2025. Does that mean after Christmas next year?

 

[The Planner]

So when will passenger services start? The NR press release says 2025. Does that mean after Christmas next year?

Summer

 

[12LDA28C]

Just been looking at the diagrams loaded to RTT from December.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...24-12-18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

The first service seems to start very late in the day, with the final service relatively early.

Passenger services aren't planned to start until next year

Not being familiar with the layout at MKC, I checked on line and see that platform 2A is a south-facing bay, presumably used by the Southern service from Croydon before it was cut back. RTT suggests this will be used by the Oxford service but there are also terminating locals from Euston which appear to use 2. I'll have to have a trip across when the new service starts.

EWR services are planned to use Platform 2A but could use any platform (apart from 6) as operational requirements dictate

 

[Class 170101]

They all look like training paths, to me, being Class 5s.

 

[liamf656]

They all look like training paths, to me, being Class 5s.

Correct. No passenger services planned until 2025 at the earliest

 

[Bletchleyite]

I note Bletchley High Level has its own CRS code (BLU) despite being part of the same station - is that permanent and is there a reason for it? Other stations like that don't.

 

[liamf656]

I note Bletchley High Level has its own CRS code (BLU) despite being part of the same station - is that permanent and is there a reason for it? Other stations like that don't.

It was asked on another thread and it was mentioned that it's a manual task to merge high level and low level platforms into "one station". The below conversation goes into a bit more depth as to why the data is presented the way it is

From the December 2024 timetable thread:

Interesting. I wonder why Bletchley has been given a separate station code for the high level platforms (BLU instead of BLY)? It's not like that's normal, it doesn't happen at places like Nuneaton, Tamworth or Smethwick Galton Bridge (some examples of two level stations), and it's not like the high level platforms have their own entrance/gateline or something.

It's common for a station to have multiple timing point locations (TIPLOCs - up to 7 letters) for different platforms. From querying my database of the Network Rail open data feed, Nuneaton has one, but the others have two (TMWTHHL / Tamworth High Level / TAH) and (TMWTHLL / Tamworth Low Level / TAM), (GALTINT/ Smethwick Galton Bdg H. L. / SGB) and (GALTILL/ Smethwick Galton Bdg L. L / XGQ). No locations in the database share a three letter code so assume has to be unique where one is defined. London Victoria and London Bridge trains are timed at locations without a station code and there's another location with the station code without any trains timed there.

The National Rail feeds and third party sites showing Network Rail schedule feeds use another lookup to show results across all relevant TIPLOCs for a particular station or code. This is outside the data provided by the Network Rail feeds. I believe RealTimeTrains doesn't use National Rail data and it's a manual task to update the mapping on the rare occasion a station gets multiple timing points in the system. The BLU code isn't intended for public use and there will be some technical reason why the new platforms have a new timing point, probably related to the signalling system in some way.

Same is true of Paddington, Liverpool Street, Farringdon, Whitechapel and Abbey Wood for the Elizabeth Line. There were also planned to be different CRS codes but for passenger connection and journey planner reasons, these weren't used.

 

[fishwomp]

In Realtime Trains we can now see the January driver training / shadow service runs for EWR.

If these are the actual times we can expect from May, I just did a quick exercise on some key journeys from Oxford - assuming that the rest of the network is also largely unchanged. (although I hope we do see the hourly XC Reading-York etc restored)

The last column is for if you randomly arrive at the station - rather than arrive in time for a planned departure.

	Current	EWR	Turn up and go .. which is best?
Oxford - Manchester	xx:39 (hourly, direct), journey time 2h50 xx:10 (intermittent), 2h50	xx:11, 2h54	EWR for 32 minutes every hour, except hours when XC's xx:10 runs.
Oxford - Sheffield	xx:39 mins, 2h40 xx:10 mins (intermittent), 2h17	xx:11, 3h16	XC always.
Oxford - Glasgow	xx:39 mins, 5h33-6h	xx:11, 6h26	Depends, EWR better for 3-30 mins every hour
Oxford - Liverpool	xx:39 mins, 3h03 xx:10 mins, 3h07	xx:11, 2h53	EWR better for 32 mins every hour ( from 39 mins past hour to 11 mins past )

Basically, MKC has poor Scotland service, and Sheffield's MKC/Tamworth route (never via Bedford) just can't match via Brum. It's a bit of a surprise that Manchester time is almost as good as XC's direct service, but Liverpool is good, as expected.

The xx:40 from Oxford to MKC doesn't get into MKC in time to meet anything useful heading north. The xx:11 from Oxford still gets a good Liverpool time with a 20 min wait in MKC, Manchester is a 29 min wait but still very quick!

 

[Nottingham59]

key journeys from Oxford

And of those, Oxford-Manchester (73 passengers per day) is by far the most important, being five times the flows to Liverpool or to Sheffield.

 

[BlueLeanie]

In Realtime Trains we can now see the January driver training / shadow service runs for EWR.

If these are the actual times we can expect from May, I just did a quick exercise on some key journeys from Oxford - assuming that the rest of the network is also largely unchanged. (although I hope we do see the hourly XC Reading-York etc restored)

The last column is for if you randomly arrive at the station - rather than arrive in time for a planned departure.

	Current	EWR	Turn up and go .. which is best?
Oxford - Manchester	xx:39 (hourly, direct), journey time 2h50 xx:10 (intermittent), 2h50	xx:11, 2h54	EWR for 32 minutes every hour, except hours when XC's xx:10 runs.
Oxford - Sheffield	xx:39 mins, 2h40 xx:10 mins (intermittent), 2h17	xx:11, 3h16	XC always.
Oxford - Glasgow	xx:39 mins, 5h33-6h	xx:11, 6h26	Depends, EWR better for 3-30 mins every hour
Oxford - Liverpool	xx:39 mins, 3h03 xx:10 mins, 3h07	xx:11, 2h53	EWR better for 32 mins every hour ( from 39 mins past hour to 11 mins past )

Basically, MKC has poor Scotland service, and Sheffield's MKC/Tamworth route (never via Bedford) just can't match via Brum. It's a bit of a surprise that Manchester time is almost as good as XC's direct service, but Liverpool is good, as expected.

The xx:40 from Oxford to MKC doesn't get into MKC in time to meet anything useful heading north. The xx:11 from Oxford still gets a good Liverpool time with a 20 min wait in MKC, Manchester is a 29 min wait but still very quick!

Timing wise, I'd agree.

Now add a "9F" ticket restriction on a "Super Off Peak" service from Oxford, and ask yourself if you'll be waiting until 09:39, or hopping on an earlier E-W service to MK for a connection.

There will be a lot of "mix&match". On a Sunday, the 14:34, and 16:38 from Glasgow take just over 4 hours direct to Milton Keynes. The Network Rail timetable shows 6h18-6h39 from Glasgow Central to Oxford on a Sunday with a one hour wait at Wolverhampton.

And of those, Oxford-Manchester (73 passengers per day) is by far the most important, being five times the flows to Liverpool or to Sheffield.

I suspect that's a deceptive figure. Whilst the "Banbury" hack doesn't seem to exist anymore, there's an ingrained culture of split-ticketing in the Thames Valley rail-user community. Single to London in the morning, Railcard single home at night etc.

 

[fishwomp]

And of those, Oxford-Manchester (73 passengers per day) is by far the most important, being five times the flows to Liverpool or to Sheffield.

Birmingham is a bigger draw, if you happened to miss the XC at xx:39, and there were no xx:10 XC, you could catch xx:40 via MKC and arrive 2h08 later, which would be 3 mins before the next XC you could have caught. Tickets/ validity may be an issue - we don't know this topic yet, along with your ability to switch track to platform 2 in Oxford after having run over the bridge to 4 for the XC in less than a minute.

Sheffield is just the example of the NE-bound XC destinations - you could add Derby, Wakefield, Leeds etc to that. Derby could benefit from more Tamworth options, but it doesn't in practice. Sheffield is also proxy for regional stoppers there, Barnsley, Lincoln, and many others. Add those destinations and you'll soon be in >100 travellers a day I expect.

Now add a "9F" ticket restriction on a "Super Off Peak" service from Oxford, and ask yourself if you'll be waiting until 09:39, or hopping on an earlier E-W service to MK for a connection.

It'll be interesting to see tickets.. "one railway" now, right?

There will be a lot of "mix&match". On a Sunday, the 14:34, and 16:38 from Glasgow take just over 4 hours direct to Milton Keynes. The Network Rail timetable shows 6h18-6h39 from Glasgow Central to Oxford on a Sunday with a one hour wait at Wolverhampton.

Absolutely. In times of disruption, it's going to be very interesting

 

[BlueLeanie]

Absolutely. In times of disruption, it's going to be very interesting

As an MK resident, how long do you think it'll be before you are refreshing RTT and looking at Google Maps wondering if you can sprint between Bicester North and Bicester Village to make a connection?

 

[fishwomp]

Last trains (and first) are also interesting to cover
Southbound is not useful as the last one is 21:17 dep MKC, and Birmingham to Oxford has 22:03 plus possible Moor Street options.

	Now	EWR
Oxford - Sheffield	21:39d 00:46a	21:10d
Oxford - Liverpool	19:40d 23:17a	21:10d 00:48a
Oxford - Manchester	20:40d 23:31a	21:10d 23:48a
Oxford - Birmingham	22:55d 00:35a (Moor St)	21:10d 23:02a

 

[mathstrains19]

Last trains (and first) are also interesting to cover
Southbound is not useful as the last one is 21:17 dep MKC, and Birmingham to Oxford has 22:03 plus possible Moor Street options.

	Now	EWR
Oxford - Sheffield	21:39d 00:46a	21:10d
Oxford - Liverpool	19:40d 23:17a	21:10d 00:48a
Oxford - Manchester	20:40d 23:31a	21:10d 23:48a
Oxford - Birmingham	22:55d 00:35a (Moor St)	21:10d 23:02a

Bear in mind that the first and last trains shown on RTT at the moment will be what runs for crew training initially. This doesn't mean that this will be the full passenger timetable running

 

[A S Leib]

I wonder if there's be any journeys where EWR would become the quickest route for Haddenham & Thame or Princes Risborough – north west journeys, especially with slower London – Birmingham Chiltern journeys post-Covid and the official connection time between Marylebone and Euston being 56 minutes.

A 25 minute gap between stations in Birmingham (I think less than the minimum connection time) is 3:17 for Haddenham & Thame Parkway – Manchester Piccadilly; even with a 59 minute wait at Milton Keynes Central, which won't be the case as it would be 2 tph, via Winslow would be 3:39 with a 16-minute connection at Bicester Village.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Bear in mind that the first and last trains shown on RTT at the moment will be what runs for crew training initially. This doesn't mean that this will be the full passenger timetable running

Exactly. In reality there is bound to be a 23:10 or even a 00:10 departure from Oxford

 

[fishwomp]

Bear in mind that the first and last trains shown on RTT at the moment will be what runs for crew training initially. This doesn't mean that this will be the full passenger timetable running

True - it's a mix of 'shadow service' and training - paths during the main part of the day will be locked and loaded for the final service though, but it's a bit daft putting on late into the night for no customers. I wonder if they'd like some shadow passengers, I'd be happy to help .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly. In reality there is bound to be a 23:10 or even a 00:10 departure from Oxford

And earlier ones too. The times on RTT at present would make traditional 9-5 commuting impossible.

 

[fishwomp]

And earlier ones too. The times on RTT at present would make traditional 9-5 commuting impossible.

Great - hadn't noticed that. Things can indeed get better as they figure out overnight servicing routines/locations. Is crew depot entirely Bletchley, or anything expected out of Chiltern in Banbury?

 

[The Planner]

Exactly. In reality there is bound to be a 23:10 or even a 00:10 departure from Oxford

Which will likely end up at Bletchley only on some weeks due to the two track on the WCML.

 

[swt_passenger]

And earlier ones too. The times on RTT at present would make traditional 9-5 commuting impossible.

The track access application (linked in the construction thread) has 35 trains each way Mon - Sat, so there’s quite a few more services to add to what RTT shows in December. That’s 18 more, (say 4 1/2 more hours worth), if I’ve counted right?

The TAA also shows that certain Oxford trains start or finish service at Bletchley, I’d expect them to be early morning and late evening.

 

[BlueLeanie]

I wonder if there's be any journeys where EWR would become the quickest route for Haddenham & Thame or Princes Risborough – north west journeys, especially with slower London – Birmingham Chiltern journeys post-Covid and the official connection time between Marylebone and Euston being 56 minutes.

A 25 minute gap between stations in Birmingham (I think less than the minimum connection time) is 3:17 for Haddenham & Thame Parkway – Manchester Piccadilly; even with a 59 minute wait at Milton Keynes Central, which won't be the case as it would be 2 tph, via Winslow would be 3:39 with a 16-minute connection at Bicester Village.

It's interesting how NRE splits the routing up. Generally for Manchester or Liverpool it sends via Banbury or Moor St + walk, but for Glasgow it sends via Euston.

But let's look at the timetables.

The services from Princes Risborough and Haddenham arrive at Bicester Village are all over the place but generally settle on an XX:10 & XX:40 arrival pattern.

Services show as departing Bicester Village at XX:25 and XX:55, and arriving at Milton Keynes 30 minutes later.

So departing HDM at 07:03 in the morning, you could comfortably connect to an 07:25 service at Bicester Village and be in Milton Keynes for 07:55. You'd be in MK quicker than the NRE allows you to connect between Marylebone & Euston. Plenty of time to connect with the 08:15 service to Liverpool, arriving at 10:04, or the 08:24 service to Manchester, arriving at 10:05

Currently the 07:13 departure from Haddenham, change at Banbury, would get you into Liverpool at 10:42 or Manchester at 10:29.

Not a lot in it. But "9F" is waving again and if you're connecting to an XC before 09:30 you're probably going to be better off on Avanti+Connections.

I do hope that Avanti/Network Rail find an opportunity to stop at least one of the weekday Northbound Glasgow fasts at Bletchley or Milton Keynes once EWR opens.

 

[12LDA28C]

In Realtime Trains we can now see the January driver training / shadow service runs for EWR.

If these are the actual times we can expect from May, I just did a quick exercise on some key journeys from Oxford - assuming that the rest of the network is also largely unchanged. (although I hope we do see the hourly XC Reading-York etc restored)

The last column is for if you randomly arrive at the station - rather than arrive in time for a planned departure.

	Current	EWR	Turn up and go .. which is best?
Oxford - Manchester	xx:39 (hourly, direct), journey time 2h50 xx:10 (intermittent), 2h50	xx:11, 2h54	EWR for 32 minutes every hour, except hours when XC's xx:10 runs.
Oxford - Sheffield	xx:39 mins, 2h40 xx:10 mins (intermittent), 2h17	xx:11, 3h16	XC always.
Oxford - Glasgow	xx:39 mins, 5h33-6h	xx:11, 6h26	Depends, EWR better for 3-30 mins every hour
Oxford - Liverpool	xx:39 mins, 3h03 xx:10 mins, 3h07	xx:11, 2h53	EWR better for 32 mins every hour ( from 39 mins past hour to 11 mins past )

Basically, MKC has poor Scotland service, and Sheffield's MKC/Tamworth route (never via Bedford) just can't match via Brum. It's a bit of a surprise that Manchester time is almost as good as XC's direct service, but Liverpool is good, as expected.

The xx:40 from Oxford to MKC doesn't get into MKC in time to meet anything useful heading north. The xx:11 from Oxford still gets a good Liverpool time with a 20 min wait in MKC, Manchester is a 29 min wait but still very quick!

The times in RTT do indeed represent the planned passenger timetable, although there's been no announcement proclaiming EWR services will commence in May.

Great - hadn't noticed that. Things can indeed get better as they figure out overnight servicing routines/locations. Is crew depot entirely Bletchley, or anything expected out of Chiltern in Banbury?

The timetable and overnight servicing has already been planned and agreed. Traincrew will be based at Bletchley.

I do hope that Avanti/Network Rail find an opportunity to stop at least one of the weekday Northbound Glasgow fasts at Bletchley or Milton Keynes once EWR opens.

Do any Avanti services stop at Bletchley?