Ebbsfleet International - London Terminal validity on Thameslink Core

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hkstudent

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I will be travelling from Ebbsfleet to London next week.
I want to try the High Speed 1 service but wanted to get to London Bridge after that.
Would the "Plus High Speed" ticket allows me to travel on a Thameslink service to London Bridge from St. Pancras International? (I find that Southeastern offered me an Ebbsfleet - London Underground Zone 1 ticket).
And would the barrier at St. Pancras swallow my ticket, so that I cannot use that on Thameslink?
 
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Alex365Dash

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I will be travelling from Ebbsfleet to London next week.
I want to try the High Speed 1 service but wanted to get to London Bridge after that.
Would the "Plus High Speed" ticket allows me to travel on a Thameslink service to London Bridge from St. Pancras International? (I find that Southeastern offered me a Ebbsfleet - London Underground Zone 1 ticket)
For non-HS1 tickets, travel for London Terminals tickets at north London terminal stations through Thameslink usually isn’t permitted as Farringdon is not part of the London Terminals fare group. However, there is an exception to this rule as described in the following National Rail page:
Customers with tickets with an origin or destination of 'London Terminals' and routed "Plus High Speed" are also permitted to travel in either direction on Thameslink services between London St Pancras International and:

  • Farringdon
  • City Thameslink
  • London Blackfriars
  • Elephant & Castle
  • London Bridge
All tickets between Ebbsfleet International and London Terminals are routed ‘Plus High Speed’, and can therefore be used on Thameslink services to London Bridge.
 

hkstudent

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For non-HS1 tickets, travel for London Terminals tickets at north London terminal stations through Thameslink usually isn’t permitted as Farringdon is not part of the London Terminals fare group. However, there is an exception to this rule as described in the following National Rail page:

All tickets between Ebbsfleet International and London Terminals are routed ‘Plus High Speed’, and can therefore be used on Thameslink services to London Bridge.
Yeah, but I am worried, as Southeastern.co.uk doesn't offer a London terminal ticket for my planned journey...
(And, let's play naughty, what about Stratford Intl - St. Pancras Intl ticket, would that be permitted to go to London Bridge, Charing Cross or even Victoria (via Waterloo / Peckham Rye?) afterwards?)
 

Alex365Dash

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Yeah, but I am worried, as Southeastern.co.uk doesn't offer a London terminal ticket for my planned journey...
I’m unsure as to why it doesn’t show up on the journey planner (I’ll leave that as a question for the floor) but there is a positive easement (700847) in the Routeing Guide that allows it…
Tickets to London Terminals priced on routes (00131) PLUS HS1 and (00324) Plus HS1 NOT UND(erground) on HS1 services to London are valid via London St Pancras International and Farringdon by National Rail services to City Thameslink, London Bridge, London Blackfriars, London Cannon Street, London Waterloo East and London Charing Cross. This fare route easement applies in both directions.
…so it’s valid. I haven’t actually tried to use such a ticket, so I can’t comment on how likely staff are to accept it. Hopefully someone else can answer that one!

And, let's play naughty, what about Stratford Intl - St. Pancras Intl ticket, would that be permitted to go to London Bridge and even Victoria afterwards?
All tickets from Stratford Intl. to St Pancras Intl. are also routed ‘PLUS HIGH SPEED’ and issued to London Terminals, so would be valid to London Bridge. The easement itself appears to list every London Terminal reachable from Blackfriars without leaving the London Terminals fare group, however London Victoria isn’t listed on the easement and is hence not valid, probably because there’s no way to get to London Victoria from Blackfriars without leaving the London Terminals fare group. Although you could always use a Stratford International to London Terminals ticket to go to Charing Cross!
 
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BluePenguin

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Yes, this is completely valid and a journey I have done many times. The Plus High Speed tickets have no less validity. You can travel to any of the southern London terminals you wish.

I don’t know where the misinformation from upthread is coming from. This has nothing to do with there not being a connection between Blackfriars and Victoria. No need to buy a ticket from Stratford Intl either.

The barriers at London Bridge/Victoria/Charing Cross etc will not be able to tell whether you have travelled in on a northbound Southeastern service or a southbound Thameslink anyway so you are fine. They might swallow your ticket though, so instead show it to the barrier staff at London Bridge for example if you want to break your journey
 

Alex365Dash

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I don’t know where the misinformation from upthread is coming from. This has nothing to do with there not being a connection between Blackfriars and Victoria. No need to buy a ticket from Stratford Intl either.
While the bit on why the easement isn’t valid to Victoria is useless speculation, this was in response to a follow-up question from the OP regarding whether a Stratford Intl. - St Pancras Intl. ticket would be valid to London Bridge. I agree that a ticket from Ebbsfleet Intl. is valid to London Bridge, so you don’t need a Stratford Intl. ticket to make the journey.

Does the easement allow you to continue your journey from St Pancras to London Victoria? I interpreted the easement as valid solely to the stations listed and no further once you travel back south from St Pancras on Thameslink, although I’m happy to be corrected on that one.
 

JaJaWa

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Are Oyster card users travelling Stratford International <> St Pancras entitled to the free Thameslink connection?
 

Watershed

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Are Oyster card users travelling Stratford International <> St Pancras entitled to the free Thameslink connection?
You can only use Oyster in PAYG mode on Southeastern High Speed (as Travelcards aren't valid), so the journey won't ever really be 'free'.

Stratford International to St Pancras is charged as a 'special fare', separate from the rest of the system as with the Heathrow and Gatwick Expresses. If you travel from Stratford International to London Bridge, for example, you'll be charged two separate fares, one to St Pancras (SE High Speed) and another from St Pancras (Thameslink).

So there are circumstances where a paper ticket could be cheaper than Oyster.
 
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hkstudent

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Yes, this is completely valid and a journey I have done many times. The Plus High Speed tickets have no less validity. You can travel to any of the southern London terminals you wish.

I don’t know where the misinformation from upthread is coming from. This has nothing to do with there not being a connection between Blackfriars and Victoria. No need to buy a ticket from Stratford Intl either.

The barriers at London Bridge/Victoria/Charing Cross etc will not be able to tell whether you have travelled in on a northbound Southeastern service or a southbound Thameslink anyway so you are fine. They might swallow your ticket though, so instead show it to the barrier staff at London Bridge for example if you want to break your journey
And would barrier at St Pancras (Southeastern) swallow my ticket?
 

Haywain

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The barriers at London Bridge/Victoria/Charing Cross etc will not be able to tell whether you have travelled in on a northbound Southeastern service or a southbound Thameslink anyway so you are fine.
The fact that barriers may not be able to tell how you arrived is not confirmation of validity. The easement allowing travel south of St Pancras clearly names a range of stations that does not include Victoria so I don't think it can be taken as clear that such a ticket is actually valid.
 

BluePenguin

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Does the easement allow you to continue your journey from St Pancras to London Victoria? I interpreted the easement as valid solely to the stations listed and no further once you travel back south from St Pancras on Thameslink, although I’m happy to be corrected on that one.
Yes, I cannot see why you wouldn’t be allowed to. Honestly I don’t see how the easement comes into it at all. The additional validity permits you to travel the entire length of the Thames core past Farringdon, which cheaper tickets do not permit. There is nothing about not being allow into all south London terminals once on the other side of the Thames.

The fact that barriers may not be able to tell how you arrived is not confirmation of validity. The easement allowing travel south of St Pancras clearly names a range of stations that does not include Victoria so I don't think it can be taken as clear that such a ticket is actually valid.
Granted, whether a barrier accepts a ticket is not the best way to deems its validity. Although I remind you that Plus High Speed tickets include a 20% surcharge. These tickets allow passengers to use all mainline routes into London, including St Pancras. They are also additionally valid to travel on HS1 and into the Thameslink core with all other terminals still permitted I cannot understand how it can be suggested that more a expensive ticket has less validity.

You are correct the easement does not mention Victoria, although would anyone really question whether it is still valid? Charing Cross and Cannon Street are still allowed on reaching London Bridge. It would be ludicrous to suggest passengers are only permitted to travel to Victoria via Bromley South. Otherwise, we would all opt for significantly cheaper NOT VALID ON HS1 tickets, as would not benefit from paying more for the Thameslink validity that limits further onward travel options. Presumably they expect people to travel on direct services instead anyway. Time wise there is not much of difference in it.

And would barrier at St Pancras (Southeastern) swallow my ticket?
Potentially, it might do. It’s always safer to show it to the member of staff

You can only use Oyster in PAYG mode on Southeastern High Speed (as Travelcards aren't valid), so the journey won't ever really be 'free'.

Stratford International to St Pancras is charged as a 'special fare', separate from the rest of the system as with the Heathrow and Gatwick Expresses. If you travel from Stratford International to London Bridge, for example, you'll be charged two separate fares, one to St Pancras (SE High Speed) and another from St Pancras (Thameslink).

So there are circumstances where a paper ticket could be cheaper than Oyster.
This is a very interesting point. Someone with a paper ticket would of course be allowed to travel onwards on Thameslink. Although on Oyster, tapping out at St Pancras and then in again downstairs would lead to being charged extra. The system is completely designed to discourage people using Oyster anyway.
 
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Watershed

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Yes, I cannot see why you wouldn’t be allowed to. Honestly I don’t see how the easement comes into it at all. The additional validity permits you to travel the entire length of the Thames core past Farringdon, which cheaper tickets do not permit. There is nothing about not being allow into all south London terminals once on the other side of the Thames.
Where tickets are issued to a station group (e.g. London Terminals), the normal rule is that they expire when you arrive at the last station you can reach without passing through somewhere outside the group.

Let's imagine for a moment that this easement didn't exist.

Farringdon is not a London Terminal. Stratford International to London Terminals tickets would therefore expire upon arrival at St Pancras - as you cannot reach any other London Terminal without leaving the London Terminals group.

So, as you can see, you are reliant on the easement to travel via Farringdon at all. Therefore, when relying on it, you can only travel to one of the listed stations - and Victoria is not one of them.
 

BluePenguin

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That does make sense. Although once past Farringdon, from London Bridge you can reach Charing Cross, Cannon Street and Victoria direct. Would the direct train rule not supersede that? If not, Denmark Hill and Victoria are easy enough to change at. I strongly feel the easement needs to be updated to be more flexible. Presumably most people take the Victoria line from St Pancras anyway, as it is much quicker although yet more money to pay! Let’s hope when Crossrail finally opens Farringdon will be made a London terminal for ticketing purposes in the same way as Vauxhall.
 

Watershed

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That does make sense. Although once past Farringdon, from London Bridge you can reach Charing Cross, Cannon Street and Victoria direct. Would the direct train rule not supersede that? If not, Denmark Hill and Victoria are easy enough to change at. I strongly feel the easement needs to be updated to be more flexible. Presumably most people take the Victoria line from St Pancras anyway, as it is much quicker although yet more money to pay! Let’s hope when Crossrail finally opens Farringdon will be made a London terminal for ticketing purposes in the same way as Vauxhall.
You can reach Dover via a direct train from London Bridge, if you go down that line of logic!

You are entirely reliant on the easement to travel on Thameslink with this ticket. Therefore you cannot read things into the easement that it doesn't say. Victoria isn't one of the listed London Terminals, so you can't travel there under the easement.

I see no reason why Farringdon will become a London Terminal when Crossrail opens. TfL are skint as it is; they won't want to lose any more money than they already are.
 

paul1609

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I will be travelling from Ebbsfleet to London next week.
I want to try the High Speed 1 service but wanted to get to London Bridge after that.
Would the "Plus High Speed" ticket allows me to travel on a Thameslink service to London Bridge from St. Pancras International? (I find that Southeastern offered me an Ebbsfleet - London Underground Zone 1 ticket).
And would the barrier at St. Pancras swallow my ticket, so that I cannot use that on Thameslink?
All London Bound Services from Ebbsfleet International use HS1 there is no not HS1 route.
All tickets from Ebbsfleet to London Terminals allow you to travel on Thameslink as far as London Bridge.
Southeastern is showing you the London U1 ticket as this ticket is also valid on the Northern Line of London Underground and will often be the quicker journey because of higher frequency on the Northern Line.
All London terminals tickets are returned at the high speed barriers at St Pancras and staff will be used to the easement which is used by thousands of season ticket holders a day.
Tickets to London U1 can also be used on the Thameslink route between London Bridge/ Elephant and Castle and West Hampstead Thameslink.
If you want to travel to Victoria you need the U1 ticket or a travelcard off peak.
 
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