EC October diversion

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delt1c

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I will be travelling by EC Edinburgh to Kings Cross on Sunday 7th October, I note that the service is diverted via Carlisle, question is when it reaches Newcastle will it reverse or continue over the other bridge to keep the 1st class at the front. I take it that it will be HST and not a Diesel hauled Mk4 set
 
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jopsuk

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as it will depart westbound from Waverly, 1st class will (almost certainly) be at the rear until Newcastle. If it comes straight in from Craigtinney, no odd moves round the South Suburban, it'll be facing the right way for this.
 

delt1c

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will have to try and change seats at Newcastle as like to face forward
 

philjo

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I read that some of the services will be 225 sets dragged between Newcastle & carlisle. The 91s will then run under their own power on the WCML to Edinburgh. EC were planning an hourly service on one of the wekeends which is more frequent than in the past so they probably wouldn't have enough HSTs in the right places.
 

sprinterguy

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I read that some of the services will be 225 sets dragged between Newcastle & carlisle. The 91s will then run under their own power on the WCML to Edinburgh. EC were planning an hourly service on one of the wekeends which is more frequent than in the past so they probably wouldn't have enough HSTs in the right places.
The Newcastle – Carlisle – Edinburgh Tyne Valley diversions in the autumn have been hourly since they started in 2004. Unless they were cut back in more recent years by NX or EC and I missed it, but even so East Coast now have more HST sets than GNER did back then!

Although I thought I did see something about dragged 225s this time as well, but I might be getting confused with something else.
 

philjo

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On Sat 15th this week the diversions via Carlisle are all day. I think that in previous years the diversions generally only started after about 12 noon on the Saturday as the early departures from KX on the saturday morning went the normal route via Berwick. So presumably this would mean a lot more HSTs would be required for an all day hourly service, hence the 225 drags this year.
I was on a 225 on a Saturday morning last year to York which was rammed as it was going though to Edinburgh via Berwick. All later northbound trains that day would be diverted.
 

sprinterguy

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On Sat 15th this week the diversions via Carlisle are all day. I think that in previous years the diversions generally only started after about 12 noon on the Saturday as the early departures from KX on the saturday morning went the normal route via Berwick. So presumably this would mean a lot more HSTs would be required for an all day hourly service, hence the 225 drags this year.

I was on a 225 on a Saturday morning last year to York which was rammed as it was going though to Edinburgh via Berwick. All later northbound trains that day would be diverted.
Ah, well that’s certainly a change from the earlier years of these diversions, as in GNER days the Newcastle – Carlisle – Edinburgh runs used to commence first thing in the morning (The first one was about 8am off Newcastle IIRC), but as I say there were enough HSTs to cover all the required diagrams despite GNER’s smaller HST fleet.

The method of operation in the early years was that the majority of the workings between Newcastle and Edinburgh via Carlisle were HST worked “shuttles” between these points only, with the addition of the usual Aberdeen and Inverness trains working through to/from London in some of the hourly paths. The shuttles connected into 225 services from London that terminated at Newcastle. Is this still the method of working for the diversions?
 

philjo

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The EC journey planner for Sat 15th shows hourly services from Kings cross as through services to Edinburgh calling at York, Darlington, Newcastle & Carlisle. leave KX at 08:00 and hourly to 13:00 then 15:00 and 17:00. The 14:00 & 16:00 only go to Newcastle. I can't see any specific Newcastle-Edinburgh shuttles.
 

northern156

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I live on the Tyne Valley and since 2007 at latest, GNER/NXEC/East Coast have always started early Saturday morning running 'shuttles' between NCL and EDB. Sundays are a bit later and most of these services are shuttles also.
I'm really looking forward to the Mk4 drags though, certainly a first in a long time for the Tyne Valley!
 

sprinterguy

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I'm really looking forward to the Mk4 drags though, certainly a first in a long time for the Tyne Valley!
Come to think about it, when has a class 91 and mark 4 rake being dragged over the Tyne Valley line? I cannot think of a single instance of this occuring, but that does not mean that it has not happened by any means!
 

ainsworth74

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Come to think about it, when has a class 91 and mark 4 rake being dragged over the Tyne Valley line?

I think I read somewhere that they've only just been route cleared for the Tyne Valley so this could be the first time. However, don't hold me to that as I can't remember where I read it.

Certainly it's the first time that a 91+Mk4 rake has run over the WCML properly for any real distance This is the first time in quite a while that a 91+Mk4 set has run any distance the WCML (I don't count Edinburgh - Glasgow via Carstairs). I am kind of tempted to try and bag one, just for the novelty factor.
 
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EltonRoad

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There was a railtour in 1994 or thereabouts when a full 91 set ran from King's Cross to Euston via Edinburgh. I took a photo of it coming through Crewe.
 

ainsworth74

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Any chance seeing the photo?

(I ask not because I don't believe you but because I'm curious to see a 91+Mk4s a Crewe! :lol:)
 

sprinterguy

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That would most certainly be an interesting photo to see: I have a photo in a book I own of a shortened 225 formation on the WCML in 1992, but it is being hauled by a 90 rather than running on it's own power.
 

EltonRoad

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Can't sorry, it was a print and it's at another house!

I do remember it was a bit of a non-event, I was the only person photographing it and it went silently through platform 1 without stopping.
 

34Short

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Try not to get caught out.

67's only run THIS Saturday. It'll be Sundays afterwards.

And no, I'm not telling you where I'm getting my shot...
 

Searle

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All of the services will be run by HST's under their own power all the way, apart from the 0650 Glasgow Central - King's Cross, the 1100 King's Cross - Edinburgh, and the 1839 King's Cross - Newcastle on September 15, and then the 1425 King's Cross - Glasgow Central on September 16, which are run by 91 + Mk4, under their own power from King's Cross - Newcastle, and from Carlisle onwards where applicable, with the 67 from Newcastle - Carlisle.

Oh just noticed that's not the date you're travelling on but it'd be a shame to delete all the post, so have the info anyway :P
 

bb21

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Are these the diagrams for just this weekend, or is this repeated for the next few weeks? I mean I know the Saturdays are just for this week, but what about the Sunday runs?
 

Searle

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I'm not sure, sorry, I'm just reading it from RAIL Magazine :P It doesn't mention any other weekends, so I'd presume not
 

Rick1984

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Why is it stopping in carlisle? Would impressive to see in tyne valley. Some really tight curves to navigate just before newcastle
 

ainsworth74

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Why is it stopping in carlisle?

I've never been clear why the HSTs call at Carlisle but for the IC225s they'll have to stop there anyway to attach/remove the 67 so they might as well open the doors to let people travel.
 

jopsuk

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but surely like with coupling movements on MUs they need to have the doors locked to guard against people being injured when the two parts join/if something goes wrong during a brake test?
 

ainsworth74

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but surely like with coupling movements on MUs they need to have the doors locked to guard against people being injured when the two parts join/if something goes wrong during a brake test?

Sorry should have been a bit clearer. What I meant was that if they're stopping to do all that work anyway then either once they've done it or before they do it they might as well let people board. It's not exactly going to add much of a time penalty compared to the coupling duties.
 

philjo

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Presumably also for connections. Passengers from ECML stations who normally change at Edinburgh for Glasgow would find it quicker to change at Carlisle & use VT.
 

ainsworth74

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However passengers are not supposed to alight - Very rarely stops folks though.

Tickets between Newcastle and Carlisle are NOT valid on these services, neither is a Tyne Valley Rover.

Source?

It's indicated as a timetabled stop on both NRE and East Coast's journey planner (which is also happy to issue a seat reservation for Carlisle to Newcastle on the 0942 to take just one service as an example). I can't find any mention of a Tyne Valley rover but the Hadrian's Wall Country Line Day Ranger which covers the same area has a map indicating it's validity which states "valid on all train operating companies’ services on the map shown" you can see the map here. The North East Round Robin states the same thing.

Northern Rail's leafleat describing Robins/Rangers for Yorkshire and the North East also has maps of both the above products and it also states quite specifically "valid on all train operating companies’ services on the maps shown with the exception of Grand Central". You can find this leaflet here.

I would also be interested to see what is stated on the above tickets when they've been issued as according to Condition 10 of the NRCoC:

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies

The validity of a ticket may:

a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit

travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

So if there is no mention of Northern Only or Except East Coast then I'd have thought any such prohibition is unenforcible. I can tell you for sure (I'm looking at one right now) that on a North East Round Robin the validity is indicated as being: As Advertised. I would suggest that a passenger might reasonably expect that it's valid on any train companies services seeing as all the information from Northern states as much.

So I'd be interested to see where that claim comes from and more over if East Coast would actually try and enforce such a claim when the passenger is confronted with so much information to the contrary?
 
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34Short

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Source?

It's indicated as a timetabled stop on both NRE and East Coast's journey planner.

Set Down. Just like the Scotrail sleeper does at Preston. It's not supposed to pick people up or drop them off.

All depends what went into TRUST - I'm guessing STP Scotland team at Network Rail put the paths with the stop as a timing point.

So if there is no mention of Northern Only or Except East Coast then I'd have thought any such prohibition is unenforcible. I can tell you for sure (I'm looking at one right now) that on a North East Round Robin the validity is indicated as being: As Advertised. I would suggest that a passenger might reasonably expect that it's valid on any train companies services seeing as all the information from Northern states as much.

So I'd be interested to see where that claim comes from and more over if East Coast would actually try and enforce such a claim when the passenger is confronted with so much information to the contrary?

I understand your skepticism, but technically they aren't valid and it'd depend on what the Train Manager would say. I've been chinged before, as have several others over the past years.

Yes, a Round Robin is valid - but a Tyne Valley technically isn't.

The 67+91 will be on these services this Saturday.

0944 CAR - NCL
1410 NCL - CAR

If you are photting along the line, please be aware of farmers fields!
 

ainsworth74

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Set Down. Just like the Scotrail sleeper does at Preston. It's not supposed to pick people up or drop them off.

This is not shown by the timetables available through NRE and East Coast. Also do you therefore state that the reservations that I've just made through the East Coast journey planner would be rejected on board?

I understand your skepticism, but technically they aren't valid and it'd depend on what the Train Manager would say. I've been chinged before, as have several others over the past years.

Can you please show me your source for claiming that the tickets are not valid? I can find nothing that would indicate that they are not valid.

Again the maps issued by Northern for the rover state "valid on all train operating companies’ services on the map shown". Furthermore Condition 10 indicates that unless there is a specific TOC restriction printed on the ticket (and this goes for all of them not just the rover) then it is valid on all TOC services.
 

34Short

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This is not shown by the timetables available through NRE and East Coast. Also do you therefore state that the reservations that I've just made through the East Coast journey planner would be rejected on board?

No - Because you've booked on that service, then that revenue will go to East Coast. If you booked on a Northern service, the revenue would go to Northern.

Can you please show me your source for claiming that the tickets are not valid? I can find nothing that would indicate that they are not valid.

I see what I've done here - Slight confusion (My apology). Tyne Valley rovers aren't valid. I was made to buy a full NCL-CAR return at full price. I don't need a source, I was made to purchase the full ticket price by the guard. The source is myself.


Again the maps issued by Northern for the rover state "valid on all train operating companies’ services on the map shown". Furthermore Condition 10 indicates that unless there is a specific TOC restriction printed on the ticket (and this goes for all of them not just the rover) then it is valid on all TOC services.

I stand by my guns on this one. They TECHNICALLY aren't valid. It'd be down the train manager's digression to accept it or not.
 
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