ECML closed PBO to KGX Aug Bank Holiday routing

[Mag_seven]

Hence the very strong message for the weekend is DO NOT TRAVEL.

But its a bank holiday weekend - are people supposed to stay at home? If all efforts are being made as you say to strengthen services on other routes and provide lots of RBBs etc, why should people not travel? Advertise the alternatives and then let people make up their own minds. Making a statement in capitals "DO NOT TRAVEL" implies the industry has thrown in the towel.

 

[jon0844]

I understand the work has to happen and the many connotations and variables that go with it, i.e. diversions, rail replacement transport and upgrades etc. You say it`s plain wrong for anyone to say it doesn`t have to happen this weekend. May I ask why as you have given no explanation. If it is simply that there is likely to be less passengers on these days then it makes sense and I totally accept that. Otherwise it does lend to the idea of the parties involved that they don`t want to offend the business community with rail replacement transport and thus dump it on the unfortunate people who may have to travel on these days. This isn`t a criticism or disagreement as to what needs to be done workwise but merely asking for explanations as to the timing perhaps.

There are going to be people in the week who HAVE to travel and the disruption could cause real logistical issues. It's clearly not great that leisure travellers may be put off travelling over the weekend, but it's not in the same league in terms of hardship. Just plan to travel somewhere else if necessary.

There will of course be workers on the weekend who have to travel and they will have to plan for longer journey times, and it will be a lot easier to help them if the numbers are fewer.

 

[LowLevel]

But its a bank holiday weekend - are people supposed to stay at home? If all efforts are being made as you say to strengthen services on other routes and provide lots of RBBs etc, why should people not travel? Advertise the alternatives and then let people make up their own minds. Making a statement in capitals "DO NOT TRAVEL" implies the industry has thrown in the towel.

The issue with this kind of problem is that the industry idea of essential travel and the passenger one are frequently at odds.

By saying this at least when the passengers are inevitably complaining that they're being left behind on alternative routes/wedged into other people's armpits the industry can say 'well we told you it would be horrible and you're still here'.

 

[Aictos]

But its a bank holiday weekend - are people supposed to stay at home? If all efforts are being made as you say to strengthen services on other routes and provide lots of RBBs etc, why should people not travel? Advertise the alternatives and then let people make up their own minds. Making a statement in capitals "DO NOT TRAVEL" implies the industry has thrown in the towel.

I disagree, the industry is simply implying that services will be extremely busy while these works are happening and journeys will take much longer then usual as a result with alternative routes being recommended.

They haven’t just thrown in the towel at all, just people shouldn’t just turn up and expect a normal service.

 

[yorksrob]

I dunno. Do we get many complaints on here about well planned alternative offerings, such as alternative through trains by diverted routes, or well-coordinated replacement buses where there is no prospect of any alternative?

We get complaints when rail replacements are badly coordinated, and rightly so, and people don't like it if the alternative arrangements are inadequate, and that's understandable too.

If there are threads where people bang on about enhancements while disliking disruption I'd be happy to receive a list of links to look at...

No, we get a load of the industry people on here banging on about how people don't want diversions and would much rather get a bus all the way down the M6.

Personally, as a passenger, I think that in these circumstances, any reasonable route should be allowed.

I.e. if you're travelling North, any route North and across that gets you there.

 

[Master29]

There are going to be people in the week who HAVE to travel and the disruption could cause real logistical issues. It's clearly not great that leisure travellers may be put off travelling over the weekend, but it's not in the same league in terms of hardship. Just plan to travel somewhere else if necessary.

There will of course be workers on the weekend who have to travel and they will have to plan for longer journey times, and it will be a lot easier to help them if the numbers are fewer.

There are other ways of travelling for people who "have to travel" so this answers nothing and "logistical issues" can mean anything, even not offending corporate buddies.

 

[bb21]

There are other ways of travelling for people who "have to travel" so this answers nothing and "logistical issues" can mean anything, even not offending corporate buddies.

The numbers travelling do not compare even remotely between weekdays and weekends.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The timetables have been set, the routing has been set, but as you say OBVIOUSLY nothing has been finalised yet!

AFAIK the timetables or easements haven't been set yet, though yes, the blockade will happen.

Personally, as a passenger, I think that in these circumstances, any reasonable route should be allowed.

And any reasonable route will be, I'm sure, especially from further north.

In this case, though, pushing people onto RRBs may be the most reasonable solution. A coach to Peterborough will take 90-100 minutes, far quicker than any diversion via Leicester for passengers heading to Peterborough itself. Bear in mind the MML is also going to be very busy with people from Yorkshire diverting onto it.

 

[hwl]

The closure also includes Moorgate and the ECML Thameslink* services so the total weekday peak impact is at least 27tph for GTR and the (commuter) numbers carried on those services dwarf East Coast or the OA operators.
Hence complete closure during the working week is not an option hence a quiet bank Holiday weekend.

*also impacts south of the river...

 

[Tetchytyke]

The numbers travelling do not compare even remotely between weekdays and weekends.

Indeed. The blockade needs to happen. Someone will be massively inconvenienced when it does happen. But doing it on a weekend is preferable to a weekday for obvious reasons. And, unlike on previous threads, this really is a case where there are no reasonable diversionary routes because so much of the line is shut.

And on the ECML diversions ARE used wherever possible, including terminating trains at Finsbury Park when Kings Cross is shut.

 

[ainsworth74]

And on the ECML diversions ARE used wherever possible, including terminating trains at Finsbury Park when Kings Cross is shut.

Plus they even use them during normal service disruption. I've seen trains being diverted via Lincoln when the wires have come down at Retford. I've been on a train diverted via the Hertford Loop after a fatality at Potters Bar. They'll even divert trains via Carlisle when there are problems north of Newcastle! That's a massive diversion to undertake at the drop of a hat.

You can accuse the LNER and predecessors of many things but being shy of diverting trains is not one of them.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looking at RTT, the WCML appears to be open that long bank holiday weekend (which makes a change).
However services are reduced and with longer journey times.
So seemingly 2tph Manchester-Euston and Birmingham-Euston.
It's going to be busy at Manchester Piccadilly that weekend...

There's also an additional 1Z52 VT 1352 Edinburgh-Euston (Voyager) running direct via the Trent Valley, on the Saturday.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S06460/2019/08/24/advanced

 

[Aictos]

Looking at RTT, the WCML appears to be open that long bank holiday weekend (which makes a change).
However services are reduced and with longer journey times.
So seemingly 2tph Manchester-Euston and Birmingham-Euston.
It's going to be busy at Manchester Piccadilly that weekend...

There's also an additional 1Z52 VT 1352 Edinburgh-Euston running direct via the Trent Valley, on the Saturday.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S06460/2019/08/24/advanced

Because one route has to be open for Anglo-Scots traffic at all time as been mentioned here before which certain members such as @The Planner @Bald Rick etc can confirm!

 

[DanDaDriver]

By way of contrasting attitudes to alleviating disruption, Derby City council have closed part of the A52 for 13 months while they replace a bridge. This has essentially gridlocked Derby for the coming year. The evening traffic has made the news with previously 10 minute journeys taking 2+ hrs.

The council spokesman is on record as saying, “It is what it is.”

 

[Aictos]

By way of contrasting attitudes to alleviating disruption, Derby City council have closed part of the A52 for 13 months while they replace a bridge. This has essentially gridlocked Derby for the coming year. The evening traffic has made the news with previously 10 minute journeys taking 2+ hrs.

The council spokesman is on record as saying, “It is what it is.”

Should it take 13 months to replace a bridge tho?

When Crescent Bridge just south of Peterborough station was refurbished a few years ago they kept it open with 2 lane traffic and that’s a major route out of the city so one wonders why Derby is dragging their feet over a simple bridge replacement!

 

[DarloRich]

For the avoidance of doubt, and for those who seem to have every knife and dagger aimed at the DfT/NR/TOCs at every opportunity possible... this has been planned thoroughly and the essentials are this:

There have been comprehensive, well attended, sometimes terse and frank, thorough, honest, sensitive, multiple all-day meetings on this project between ALL parties concerned. At one point there was a meeting with almost every single UK TOC represented in one room (aside from TfW, GWR, SWR, c2c and SE). I refute any claim that NR haven’t talked to the TOCs, vice versa, that it’s poorly planned or that it’s pathetic. This is a genuinely collaborative piece of work between TOCs/NR that I have never seen before.

This work absolutely has to happen and the length and distance the block covers is essential - there are no alternatives. The most significant worksite being undertaken is resignalling of the ECML to York ROC, but it also includes some work in Stevenage platform 5 and some work around King’s Cross. To say it doesn’t have to be that weekend, or that it doesn’t need to be so disruptive, is wrong.

Every single possible permutation of alternative routes has been considered and fleshed out in detail. If it was possible, it would be done. If it is not being done, it was not possible. For example, the offer was given for TOCs to loan stock to other TOCs for the weekend - some TOC execs approved some very interesting offers to loan units/coaches elsewhere, but these were declined for various reasons (driver traction knowledge, driver resource/cover availability, route clearance). Diverting trains on alternative routes into alternative terminus was also fully discussed, but there were caveats to that too (driver route knowledge lacking and failing that a severe lack of freight driver availability to pilot crews, lack of capacity on alternative routes, lack of platforms at alternative terminus, etc). And yes, AGA will be running longer trains, strengthening to 12 where possible and starting their Bishop Stortford to Stratford services back from Cambridge.

There are also a number of planned alternative travel opportunities (bus/coach services) - some of which will be advertised, some unadvertised to soak up extra passengers on the day - which are yet to enter the public domain.

The work must happen and the alternative travel options in place are the very best that the TOCs can implement. Hence the very strong message for the weekend is DO NOT TRAVEL. If you know people - friends, family, work colleagues, even spotters and enthusiasts - planning to travel that weekend, warm them now not to.

that is far to sensible a response for this board! Many posters simply want to complain and point out how they know best.

 

[yorksrob]

AFAIK the timetables or easements haven't been set yet, though yes, the blockade will happen.



And any reasonable route will be, I'm sure, especially from further north.

In this case, though, pushing people onto RRBs may be the most reasonable solution. A coach to Peterborough will take 90-100 minutes, far quicker than any diversion via Leicester for passengers heading to Peterborough itself. Bear in mind the MML is also going to be very busy with people from Yorkshire diverting onto it.

Maybe directing people towards buses may be quicker. But why not give people the choice. People travelling from Yorkshire may well use the Sheffield services, but may be less likely to end up on the Nottinghams.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You can accuse the LNER and predecessors of many things but being shy of diverting trains is not one of them.

Or thinking outside of the box generally. When the canal tunnels were beimg brought imto use they even had a temporary SLW arrangement to allow a limited service into Kings Cross.

If they're saying they have to blockade from Peterborough, I'm going to believe them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

People travelling from Yorkshire may well use the Sheffield services, but may be less likely to end up on the Nottinghams.

But people from Lincoln, Newark and Grantham are likely to end up on the Nottinghams, so it's not like they'll be carting fresh air around.

The only realistic slot I could think of using would be extending the EMT Corbys to Peterborough, but I've no idea if it would work.

 

[cactustwirly]

Maybe directing people towards buses may be quicker. But why not give people the choice. People travelling from Yorkshire may well use the Sheffield services, but may be less likely to end up on the Nottinghams.

The Sheffield services are really busy atm, and don't have the capacity for LNER passengers.
The Nottingham HSTs have a bit more capacity, but they can still be busy.

I guess EMT could use more HSTs to boost capacity, but they can't keep to time on the Sheffield route.
I guess they could modify the timetable and put in some more Leeds services operated by HSTs

 

[DarloRich]

I guess they could modify the timetable and put in some more Leeds services operated by HSTs

that is about the only practical solution - however the journey time via the ECML, even with a part by bus, is still going to be quicker than via the MML.

 

[cactustwirly]

But people from Lincoln, Newark and Grantham are likely to end up on the Nottinghams, so it's not like they'll be carting fresh air around.

The only realistic slot I could think of using would be extending the EMT Corbys to Peterborough, but I've no idea if it would work.

Could work I guess, but it's really slow, and I doubt EMT have enough 222s, plus a 4 car 222 isn't gonna have a huge amount of capacity

 

[yorksrob]

But people from Lincoln, Newark and Grantham are likely to end up on the Nottinghams, so it's not like they'll be carting fresh air around.

The only realistic slot I could think of using would be extending the EMT Corbys to Peterborough, but I've no idea if it would work.

Assuming a diversion is impractical, they could just remove the restriction on the train towards Leicester.

 

[yorksrob]

The Sheffield services are really busy atm, and don't have the capacity for LNER passengers.
The Nottingham HSTs have a bit more capacity, but they can still be busy.

I guess EMT could use more HSTs to boost capacity, but they can't keep to time on the Sheffield route.
I guess they could modify the timetable and put in some more Leeds services operated by HSTs

If I were a passenger, that would be my preference.

 

[cactustwirly]

that is about the only practical solution - however the journey time via the ECML, even with a part by bus, is still going to be quicker than via the MML.

I don't think so, the fast Sheffield services have a journey time to London of 2 hours.
It's only going to be around 20-30 minutes slower than the ECML

 

[Aictos]

But people from Lincoln, Newark and Grantham are likely to end up on the Nottinghams, so it's not like they'll be carting fresh air around.

The only realistic slot I could think of using would be extending the EMT Corbys to Peterborough, but I've no idea if it would work.

There’s a issue with the Corby proposal above in that there’s no curve at Manton Junction which allows that move to take place without reversal as the infrastructure only takes you to/from Leicester and I doubt NR will put in new track for one set of works.

If they did extend the Corby service to Peterborough then they would have to reverse at Leicester which takes times and isn’t likely to happen.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't think so, the fast Sheffield services have a journey time to London of 2 hours.
It's only going to be around 20-30 minutes slower than the ECML

the last Sunday Leeds > St Pancras HST I was on took 4 hours plus.

 

[Tetchytyke]

People from north of Newark aren't going to be using the RRBs, they'll go via the MML or WCML. So the RRBs are really more for Peterborough passengers towards London. The RRB would likely be faster than via Leicester, and likely more comfortable too.

 

[cactustwirly]

If I were a passenger, that would be my preference.

They only have 3 extra HSTs, but that's only on Saturday and Monday, the Sunday timetable uses 7 HSTs.

I guess they could use an Angel set on a quiet Nottingham service to release an extra HST set.

 

[cactustwirly]

the last Sunday Leeds > St Pancras HST I was on took 4 hours plus.

That's a Sunday though, it has to stop at all of the EMT stations, plus it's a 2 track railway south of Bedford.
It probably went via Nottingham as well.

If it's limited stop via Derby it should only be around 2hrs 45