ECML closed PBO to KGX Aug Bank Holiday routing

Dr Hoo

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Depends a bit on the route but anything transferring ECML passengers used to 9-coach trains across to another route, e.g. at Nottingham, Leicester or Cambridge, in 2 or 3-car DMUs can quickly get cosy, even with bank holiday levels of traffic.
 
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jon0844

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"We undertake this work when the railway is traditionally quieter but alternative routes will be extremely busy" - how does that work?
Other routes will be busy because they'll be taking on extra people displaced by the works. Now imagine if you did it in the week and had to combine commuters on a smaller number of trains, or local buses.
 

Solent&Wessex

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York/Leeds -> Go to Manchester for Virgin to Euston .
Which of course means using TPE. A TOC well known for having loads of spare capacity on Bank Holiday weekends to soak up all the extra passengers.

But as long as people can get from York to London thats OK. Sod the people from Huddersfield who want to go to Manchester who won't be able to fit on the trains.
 

Kite159

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Which of course means using TPE. A TOC well known for having loads of spare capacity on Bank Holiday weekends to soak up all the extra passengers.

But as long as people can get from York to London thats OK. Sod the people from Huddersfield who want to go to Manchester who won't be able to fit on the trains.
The Huddersfield starter will be popular then
 

Hadders

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That's all well and good for LNER, but down in GN land it won't involve changes of train etc. as there will be no trains at all, as such what else could be said?

Plans are being worked on but any replacement bus services will be very limited compared to the train service - for starters, the amount of buses that would be required to provide anything even vaguely close would be astronomical.

Even if you could source enough buses, the length of time the journies would take, the changes that would need to be involved and the practicalities of actually running such a service would be extremely difficult to manage, no doubt resulting in lots and lots of angry passengers.

With that in mind using "Do not travel" to try and put off anybody making non-essential journies seems fairly reasonable.
I often work in London and also visit most weekends so i’m Well qualified to talk about the leadings on the ECML south of Stevenage.

There’s never a good time to do this work but trust me, although the train’s are busy at weekends they’re far less busy than on a typical weekday in the rush hour. Also fewer trains run at weekends, again underlining that fewer people will be impacted.

I can only remember one other occasion in the last 20 years when there were no trains from Stevenage so this work is pretty much unprecedented.

Personally, if I do travel into London that weekend I’ll either:

1. Drive to Cockfosters and get the Piccadilly Line
2. Drive to Hertford East for a train to Liverpool Street

Both options will take far longer than the normal 24 minute train journey.

This work has to be done, I know I will benefit from the additional platform at Stevenage.
 

Dr Hoo

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Aictos

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Basic outline of the plan for GN is as follows:

Do not travel is still and will remain the main advice, however, the following will be in place for those that still need to travel:

  • Shuttle train service between Kings Lynn and Cambridge
  • Buses between Peterborough- Hitchin, Hitchin - Potters Bar, Hitchin - Cambridge, Stevenage - Enfield Chase
  • Buses between St Neots - Bedford, Hitchin - Luton Airport Parkway, Stevenage - Luton Airport Parkway
  • There will be no "fast" buses all the way to London, only the routes above which link to buses over to Thameslink / TFL
  • Full Ticket acceptance on Thameslink (Bedford Line), with some form of free parking to be allowed at select stations, details TBC
  • Ticket acceptance with Greater Anglia into London, as well as TFL Underground and buses etc.
  • Ticket acceptance with local buses where available
  • Some GN car parks will either be fully or partially closed to allow the significant rail replacement service to operate
Just quickly but why is Luton Airport Parkway a better location then Luton Town to terminate rail replacement services? Personally I think it's a oversight by GTR especially as it coped fairly well with last weekend and this weekend, okay there are no lifts but there are far more alternatives at Luton Town then at Parkway!

The latter has a wide choice of both bus and coach routes plus just to name two routes, you've got the 99 to Milton Keynes and the 757 to London Victoria both would be VERY popular on those days.

With Hull trains running 3 southbound and 3 northbound from Hull to St Pancras on the MML but not providing any extra capacity just using it, EMT could have run Doncaster to St Pancras and helped out but the DfT gave the paths to Hull Trains like this below

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N02168/2019/08/24/advanced
It's not actually the DfT who gives out the paths but Network Rail which gets approved by the ORR, I do agree though that Hull Trains and Grand Central should really on those days just run a shuttle service between Hull/Sunderland and Doncaster which leaves paths from Doncaster to London free for operators who would make better use of it.

Of course, Hull Trains could work with Grand Central to run a 10 car to London HOWEVER not stopping anywhere useful is a block to that!
 

43055

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With Hull trains running 3 southbound and 3 northbound from Hull to St Pancras on the MML but not providing any extra capacity just using it, EMT could have run Doncaster to St Pancras and helped out but the DfT gave the paths to Hull Trains like this below

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N02168/2019/08/24/advanced
These are shown as a unadvertised express? Is this to ease overcrowding or something.

As much as I would like to see EMT/R extend up to Doncaster but when looking at the platform allocations (even with the reduced LNER service) there is a lot of services on 4 and 8 which are the platforms from the Sheffield direction. Sheffield will be another sticking point due to the amount of services using the north end of the station and the lines out there. Realistically the best option is to use as much as possible on the normal timetable with 9 and 10 car 222's and 2 extra 8 car HST's could be freed up from the Skeggy extras by using the short 6 car sets instead.
 

Qwerty133

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These are shown as a unadvertised express? Is this to ease overcrowding or something.

As much as I would like to see EMT/R extend up to Doncaster but when looking at the platform allocations (even with the reduced LNER service) there is a lot of services on 4 and 8 which are the platforms from the Sheffield direction. Sheffield will be another sticking point due to the amount of services using the north end of the station and the lines out there. Realistically the best option is to use as much as possible on the normal timetable with 9 and 10 car 222's and 2 extra 8 car HST's could be freed up from the Skeggy extras by using the short 6 car sets instead.
Using 6 car HSTs on Skeggy probably causes more problems than it gives solutions as there is (virtually) no staff trained on both the sets and route and I believe EMT do not use the DVT luggage area in those units which would cause luggage issues. Extra HSTs sourced from LNER are much more likely to be a viable solution to lengthen EMT services than releasing the ones on Skeggy services unless someone can be convinced to give up several 156s for the weekend to use on the Skeggy services.
 

Metal_gee_man

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The DfT don't 'give' (or sell, allocate, etc.) paths too anyone.
Was I meant to say Network Rail, but as Hull are an open access operator is this because the company were prepared to do the diversion and kicked off about losing revenue (considering Grand Central aren't running a thing) or were they forced by the powers that be
 

ainsworth74

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With Hull trains running 3 southbound and 3 northbound from Hull to St Pancras on the MML but not providing any extra capacity just using it, EMT could have run Doncaster to St Pancras and helped out but the DfT gave the paths to Hull Trains like this below

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N02168/2019/08/24/advanced
Was I meant to say Network Rail, but as Hull are an open access operator is this because the company were prepared to do the diversion and kicked off about losing revenue (considering Grand Central aren't running a thing) or were they forced by the powers that be
Hull Trains when they bid to the ORR for paths put into their request a desire for the right to run into St Pancras via a number of alternative routes when Kings Cross is unavailable (this includes using the MML). When those paths were awarded they were given rights to utilise St Pancras when Kings Cross is closed. They are therefore utilising their contractual rights to continue to run their service.

Of course, Hull Trains could work with Grand Central to run a 10 car to London HOWEVER not stopping anywhere useful is a block to that!
Grand Central are, of course, not running any trains at all that weekend. They, unlike Hull Trains, appear to prefer to not run at all when Kings Cross is shut (they've done this previously). There would be nothing stopping them in their last track access application requesting contingent rights to run services into St Pancras via alternative routes but they didn't and instead just don't run a single train all weekend. So it's less Hull Trains not working with Grand Central but instead Grand Central not working at all.

These are shown as a unadvertised express? Is this to ease overcrowding or something.
I suspect the overworked goblins in MK have missed another TOC induced error.
Hull Trains haven't opened reservations for that weekend yet. One presumes as they are still finalising their arrangements. I would be more concerned if reservations were open but the trains were still unadvertised!
 

ainsworth74

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When would the timetable be finalised then as the date should have been released for booking by now for both Hull Trains and London North Eastern Railway?
How long is a piece of string? LNER are now on sale for that weekend though so I doubt it'll be too much longer for Hull Trains.
 

SC43090

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Using 6 car HSTs on Skeggy probably causes more problems than it gives solutions as there is (virtually) no staff trained on both the sets and route and I believe EMT do not use the DVT luggage area in those units which would cause luggage issues. Extra HSTs sourced from LNER are much more likely to be a viable solution to lengthen EMT services than releasing the ones on Skeggy services unless someone can be convinced to give up several 156s for the weekend to use on the Skeggy services.
EMT have been crew training staff on the ex Grand Central sets to Skegness over the winter months on at least half a dozen occasions to my knowledge

SC 43090
 

800002

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Hull Trains haven't opened reservations for that weekend yet. One presumes as they are still finalising their arrangements. I would be more concerned if reservations were open but the trains were still unadvertised!
Humm... agreed on your last point there. I always thought that reservations and bookings was TOC business, regardless of the advertised condition of the schedule. The TOC now needs to rebid the schedules to NR to advertise them in CIS systems.

As all the stops are OP stops they won't be advertised anyway? Correct?

Time shall tell what they are doing...
 

LowLevel

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EMT have been crew training staff on the ex Grand Central sets to Skegness over the winter months on at least half a dozen occasions to my knowledge

SC 43090
Only for drivers for whom the sets are entirely interchangeable - they happened to be available at a convenient time to use them. For guards they're a separate competency and there are literally 2 senior conductors trained on them IIRC.
 

londonbridge

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I notice Grand Central are runnning no services whatsoever on the Saurday and Sunday, is it not feasible for them to run just between Peterborough and Sunderland then? Will likely cause a few problems for Sunderland/Newcastle fans depending on where/when they're playing that weekend, and remembering one will be at home, the other away.
And with the release of the EFL fixtures today, the answer to my question of who we (Sunderland) will be playing that weekend is.......home against Wimbledon.
 

ainsworth74

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And with the release of the EFL fixtures today, the answer to my question of who we (Sunderland) will be playing that weekend is.......home against Wimbledon.
Shame that the FA didn't take account of the well publicised closure when creating their fixtures for that weekend.
 

Aictos

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Bigger station, bigger bus station, closer to the motorway, closer to London.

Any more?
Bigger station?

Umm no, it only has 4 platforms vs 5 at Luton Town!

Bigger bus station?

Umm no, you could fit Parkway’s bus station twice over at Luton Interchange!

Closer to the M1?

Literally both are fairly close to it so you don’t save any time!

Closer to London?

Well yes but there are far more services both coach and rail from Luton Town!

Try again with more valid reasons!
 

43055

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Using 6 car HSTs on Skeggy probably causes more problems than it gives solutions as there is (virtually) no staff trained on both the sets and route and I believe EMT do not use the DVT luggage area in those units which would cause luggage issues. Extra HSTs sourced from LNER are much more likely to be a viable solution to lengthen EMT services than releasing the ones on Skeggy services unless someone can be convinced to give up several 156s for the weekend to use on the Skeggy services.
Only for drivers for whom the sets are entirely interchangeable - they happened to be available at a convenient time to use them. For guards they're a separate competency and there are literally 2 senior conductors trained on them IIRC.
From the training runs that have taken place I was under the understanding that a higher number of staff was trained up on these sets for skeggy. Even useing the spare 8 car and 2 DY sets would allow for 3 222s to be paired up which is better than nothing. I don't think LNER will be willing to give up the HSTs as they are going along the joint line that weekend. Although more 800s may be in use by then.

Hull Trains haven't opened reservations for that weekend yet. One presumes as they are still finalising their arrangements. I would be more concerned if reservations were open but the trains were still unadvertised!
Good point.
 

LowLevel

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From the training runs that have taken place I was under the understanding that a higher number of staff was trained up on these sets for skeggy. Even useing the spare 8 car and 2 DY sets would allow for 3 222s to be paired up which is better than nothing. I don't think LNER will be willing to give up the HSTs as they are going along the joint line that weekend. Although more 800s may be in use by then.


Good point.
I'm afraid your understanding is incorrect. The training runs to Skegness were for drivers only. Local side senior conductors undertaking training on HSTs, in a fairly unusual but convenient move for the company, do so by working them with an instructor out of London St Pancras.
 

mm333

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As much as I would like to see EMT/R extend up to Doncaster but when looking at the platform allocations (even with the reduced LNER service) there is a lot of services on 4 and 8 which are the platforms from the Sheffield direction. Sheffield will be another sticking point due to the amount of services using the north end of the station and the lines out there. Realistically the best option is to use as much as possible on the normal timetable with 9 and 10 car 222's and 2 extra 8 car HST's could be freed up from the Skeggy extras by using the short 6 car sets instead.
A couple of Christmasses ago, Peterborough was closed on 27 December. That day, EMT extend the Nottingham services to Grantham to connect.
 

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Darandio

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Grand Central could have shared the paths by attaching / detaching at Doncaster with Hull Trains.
Which they have done in the past. I'm not sure you would anything coupled to a Hull Trains unit at the moment though, big potential to catch something nasty!
 

ainsworth74

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Grand Central could have shared the paths by attaching / detaching at Doncaster with Hull Trains.
I'm not sure they could. They haven't bid for access rights to St Pancras. But in any event they seemingly prefer to completely shut up shop when Kings Cross is closed (note that they're not evening running Sunderland - York/Bradford - Doncaster which they could easily do).
 

Dr Hoo

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I'm not sure they could. They haven't bid for access rights to St Pancras. But in any event they seemingly prefer to completely shut up shop when Kings Cross is closed (note that they're not evening running Sunderland - York/Bradford - Doncaster which they could easily do).
An operator that generally has a good reputation in passenger surveys might well take the view that encouraging passengers (who would presumably have to hold inter-available tickets of which it would only keep a small proportion of the revenue) to travel on a day when they were bound to experience multiple changes, diversions, extended journey times, crowding, etc. was not a good idea.
 

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