ECML closed PBO to KGX Aug Bank Holiday routing

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,329
I guess the problem with eg diverting diesels to Cambridge would be that even if Greater Anglia do strengthen their services on Cambridge-Liverpool Street, Cambridge-London (and the other direction) is on the bank holiday weekend a very, very busy route anyway, the sort of route that can have 12 car trains full and standing on the Kings Cross line on Saturdays. So there's no capacity there for a significant diversion operation with the GN shut down
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
5,770
Grand Central could have shared the paths by attaching / detaching at Doncaster with Hull Trains.
Assuming Hull Trains are not planning to operate 10 car 180 and HST formations on these services.

An operator that generally has a good reputation in passenger surveys might well take the view that encouraging passengers (who would presumably have to hold inter-available tickets of which it would only keep a small proportion of the revenue) to travel on a day when they were bound to experience multiple changes, diversions, extended journey times, crowding, etc. was not a good idea.
An operator which (in the absence of fleet issues) has an even stronger reputation in passenger surveys would obtain rights to operate to St Pancras in such situations. Oh wait.
 

Ianno87

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
7,784
Assuming Hull Trains are not planning to operate 10 car 180 and HST formations on these services.



An operator which (in the absence of fleet issues) has an even stronger reputation in passenger surveys would obtain rights to operate to St Pancras in such situations. Oh wait.
Presumably Hull Train's access rights to St P were granted many years ago when there was capacity for such things. Grand Central, a more recently formed operator, do not necessarily have that luxury.
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
5,770
Presumably Hull Train's access rights to St P were granted many years ago when there was capacity for such things. Grand Central, a more recently formed operator, do not necessarily have that luxury.
Nope. Hull Trains rights to access St Pancras are much more recent than the start of Grand Central's operation. Historically Hull Trains would have looked to divert to Liverpool Street in such circumstances.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
5,930
Nope. Hull Trains rights to access St Pancras are much more recent than the start of Grand Central's operation. Historically Hull Trains would have looked to divert to Liverpool Street in such circumstances.
Did they actually ever go to Liverpool Street though?

Assuming Hull Trains are not planning to operate 10 car 180 and HST formations on these services.
Could St Pancras actually accommodate 10 car Hull Trains services with EMT services presumably at full length as well in connection with this block?
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
5,770
Did they actually ever go to Liverpool Street though?
I think so, in the days where they worked closely with Anglia, they certainly had, and have, the access rights to do so.

Could St Pancras actually accommodate 10 car Hull Trains services with EMT services presumably at full length as well in connection with this block?
If EMT services are at full length they'll occupy a full platform anyway, so the length of a Hull Trains service is neither here nor there.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
22,169
Location
Redcar
Could St Pancras actually accommodate 10 car Hull Trains services with EMT services presumably at full length as well in connection with this block?
If EMT services are at full length they'll occupy a full platform anyway, so the length of a Hull Trains service is neither here nor there.
Looking at RTT for the Saturday for example for the morning arrival from Hull into the morning departure to Hull HT are booked to sit in P4 between 0933 and 1019. All the EMT departures are booked to be accomodated in P1 - P3 and there's no interaction between the two. So not only is the length neither here nor there but they're not booked to need to share platforms!
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
5,930
I think so, in the days where they worked closely with Anglia, they certainly had, and have, the access rights to do so.
Although finding a path via West Anglia these days will be a challenge.



If EMT services are at full length they'll occupy a full platform anyway, so the length of a Hull Trains service is neither here nor there.
Looking at RTT for the Saturday for example for the morning arrival from Hull into the morning departure to Hull HT are booked to sit in P4 between 0933 and 1019. All the EMT departures are booked to be accomodated in P1 - P3 and there's no interaction between the two. So not only is the length neither here nor there but they're not booked to need to share platforms!
The platform sharing was what I was wondering about. Cheers for answering Ainsworth74.
 

stut

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2008
Messages
1,868
Better road access from Stevenage. Is that good enough?
Also, accessible platforms, less congested roads, bus station has room for private coaches, not just service buses, lots of parking and a much faster journey to the M1 compared to the Town station.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
24,183
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
Also, accessible platforms, less congested roads, bus station has room for private coaches, not just service buses, lots of parking and a much faster journey to the M1 compared to the Town station.
it is also a better laid out station to handle lots of people safely. Luton station is very poorly set out.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
4,524
Also, accessible platforms, less congested roads, bus station has room for private coaches, not just service buses, lots of parking and a much faster journey to the M1 compared to the Town station.
Yeah, but the person I responded to dismissed most of that!
 

SteveP29

Member
Joined
23 Apr 2011
Messages
847
Location
Chester le Street/ Edinburgh
I'm caught up in this, coming back from out holiday in Dorset.

We booked up in August last year.
To get to my parents in Durham, we've to do:
St Pancras- Sheffield
Sheffield- Doncaster
Doncaster- Durham

Costing us £113 as opposed to about £50 :(
 

footprints

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2017
Messages
73
RMT strikes announced on EMT for the last two Saturdays in July and the first Saturday in August.

If not resolved by the August Bank Holiday, it would seem almost inevitable that the RMT would target the weekend of the ECML closure, when EMT is in exceptionally high demand, for further action.
 

Skimble19

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2009
Messages
1,406
Location
East Coast Mainline
There will now be additional buses on GN:

Royston to Bishops Stortford
Potters Bar, via Hadley wood, to Cockfosters and Oakwood (nearest accessible Tube station).

Buses on all routes will be in operation from 0500-2300, approx every 30 minutes, with no early morning or late night services planned at present.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
1,144
But its a bank holiday weekend - are people supposed to stay at home? If all efforts are being made as you say to strengthen services on other routes and provide lots of RBBs etc, why should people not travel? Advertise the alternatives and then let people make up their own minds. Making a statement in capitals "DO NOT TRAVEL" implies the industry has thrown in the towel.
They are running a bus every 15 minutes from Bedford to Peterborough so that seems to be the preferred route for London passengers. Journey planners show that route but they also show the XX:28 from Liverpool Street changing onto XC at Cambridge so the XC could get rather full.

One of the Stratford to Bishop's Stortford trains is extended to Cambridge every hour. That gives people three options per hour on that route, one with a change at Harlow Town.
 

Ianno87

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
7,784
They are running a bus every 15 minutes from Bedford to Peterborough so that seems to be the preferred route for London passengers. Journey planners show that route but they also show the XX:28 from Liverpool Street changing onto XC at Cambridge so the XC could get rather full.

One of the Stratford to Bishop's Stortford trains is extended to Cambridge every hour. That gives people three options per hour on that route, one with a change at Harlow Town.
Also presumably the option of travelling via Stansted from Cambridge as well?
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
1,144
My view exactly with Greater Anglia running as many 12 cars on the West Anglia route between Cambridge and London.

Even if this means reducing the Stansted Express to a 30 minute frequency to free up enough trains to use on the Cambridge services as the engineering works are far more important then the airport users.
There should be no need to do that. There are plenty of spare 317s at the weekend so put a few pairs of them on the Stansteds and use the 379s to lengthen some of the Cambridge trains. I'm not sure if they can stop over length trains at places like Harlow Mill. Do the 379s have SDO?
 

_toommm_

Established Member
Joined
8 Jul 2017
Messages
3,372
Location
Headingley
Do any insiders or general folk know when, or even if, advances will be available for the 26th August? Fancying a divert up to Inverness and don't want to pay £86.90 for the standard single fare.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
1,144
Think so. Weekdays there are 27 out of 30 379s diagrammed . 9x2 StanExp and 3x3 on Camb peak. To run 12 cars half hourly to Camb need 6x3, so 9 more than on weekdays. Pretty sure they can rustle up 9 x 317 on a Saturday, since they got a few exGN ones couple of years ago they have not been very intensively used esp at weekends
Weekdays there are 44 diagrams for 55 units. Saturdays I think it's four for Hertford, five for Stratford to Stortford, one Cambridge to Stansted and three pairs Liverpool Street to Cambridge, the other four pairs being 379s. Which makes a grand total of 16 units. So yes there are plenty spare.
 
Last edited:

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
1,144
Also presumably the option of travelling via Stansted from Cambridge as well?
Makes a lot of sense. Nice empty train to Stansted and only 20 minutes slower than the fastest direct train. Only five minutes slower than the stopper.
 

Ianno87

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
7,784
Makes a lot of sense. Nice empty train to Stansted and only 20 minutes slower than the fastest direct train. Only five minutes slower than the stopper.
Done that before when the GN is shut. Surprising how few people realise it is an option much quieter and only slightly slower.

There should be no need to do that. There are plenty of spare 317s at the weekend so put a few pairs of them on the Stansteds and use the 379s to lengthen some of the Cambridge trains. I'm not sure if they can stop over length trains at places like Harlow Mill. Do the 379s have SDO?
I think only some stations are fitted with ASDO balises, off memory.

Do any insiders or general folk know when, or even if, advances will be available for the 26th August? Fancying a divert up to Inverness and don't want to pay £86.90 for the standard single fare.
Given how busy that day will be, I wouldn't hold your breath...
 
Last edited:

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
5,704
Location
UK
RMT strikes announced on EMT for the last two Saturdays in July and the first Saturday in August.

If not resolved by the August Bank Holiday, it would seem almost inevitable that the RMT would target the weekend of the ECML closure, when EMT is in exceptionally high demand, for further action.
Appears to just be Senior Conductors striking, which shouldn't affect the intercity side
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
1,287
Makes a lot of sense. Nice empty train to Stansted and only 20 minutes slower than the fastest direct train. Only five minutes slower than the stopper.
1h30 via Stansted, 1h15 typical to Liverpool Street, but 50min to King's Cross. Depends what you mean by direct.
 

duffield

Member
Joined
31 Jul 2013
Messages
1,072
Location
East Midlands
RMT strikes announced on EMT for the last two Saturdays in July and the first Saturday in August.

If not resolved by the August Bank Holiday, it would seem almost inevitable that the RMT would target the weekend of the ECML closure, when EMT is in exceptionally high demand, for further action.

Is there a separate thread for the RMT EMT strike action?
 

Ianno87

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
7,784
1h30 via Stansted, 1h15 typical to Liverpool Street, but 50min to King's Cross. Depends what you mean by direct.
I'm talking when the Kings Cross route is shut, so there's only 2 (busy) direct Liverpool Street trains per hour - one semi-fast and one slow.

I must say, well done to GA for the Stratford extras in August - a decent third train per hour.
 

SC43090

Member
Joined
7 Sep 2018
Messages
197
Its a shambles as Network Rail have admitted they have blundered by not informing the local authorities in West Yorkshire & North Yorkshire & in Edinburgh as there are major events taking place in, Leeds there is the Leeds Music Festival. in York there the last day of a big horse racing festival & also a Rugby final in London which some team from York are involved.... in Edinburgh its the last weekend of the Edinburgh festival, In football i think North East football club are playing in London.... It seems this decision to shut the ECML between Peterborough & KX was made on the 14th February 2019 but the local authorities was only told about the decision 3 weeks ago.... The forum that was set up after the ECML RTN to public ownership as not met this year. Which as been condemed by the stakeholders from Yorkshire.....

SC 43090
 

Ianno87

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
7,784
Its a shambles as Network Rail have admitted they have blundered by not informing the local authorities in West Yorkshire & North Yorkshire & in Edinburgh as there are major events taking place in, Leeds there is the Leeds Music Festival. in York there the last day of a big horse racing festival & also a Rugby final in London which some team from York are involved.... in Edinburgh its the last weekend of the Edinburgh festival, In football i think North East football club are playing in London.... It seems this decision to shut the ECML between Peterborough & KX was made on the 14th February 2019 but the local authorities was only told about the decision 3 weeks ago.... The forum that was set up after the ECML RTN to public ownership as not met this year. Which as been condemed by the stakeholders from Yorkshire.....

SC 43090
Leeds Festival runs from Friday to Sunday. Campers are there from Thursday to Monday. So not affected by the closure (for the small proportion coming from London).

Football games are scheduled after the possessions have been booked.

...When else do you propose to do it that would affect *fewer* passengers?
 

Top