ECML Dec 2010 Timetable

[djw1981]

I think the FSR service takes a bit longer than 29 minutes!

For example the 0900 from GLC got to EDB 1002 (3 late, after being 5 late at Midcalder Jn). The 0900 from GLQ got to EDB at 0950 (also 2 late).

So yes, you could get to Edinburgh 12 minutes earlier but Central is more conveniently located

Depends where you are coming from. If south/west then yes, But North / East / West End is easier into Q St. North North West, same difference via Partick on Low Level Lines. And Queen St is better for coach station connections

and it would take about 12 minutes to walk from Central to the dump that is Queen Street anyway, so it's not really faster for most people.

Maximum 5mins. And whilst not blessed with the grace of Central (blame the planners for allowing the concrete block which houses SPT), Queen St is a very efficient clean and bright station.
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Not as bad as they make it out to be. The normal departures are as follows:

xx:00 Edinburgh (1st stop Croy)
xx:15 Edinburgh (1st stop Falkirk High)
xx:18 Alloa
xx:21 Falkirk Grahamston via Cumbernauld
xx:27 Anniesland via Maryhill
xx:30 Edinburgh (1st stop Croy)
xx:40 Aberdeen
xx:45 Edinburgh (1st stop Falkirk High)
xx:48 Dunblane
xx:51 Cumbernauld
xx:57 Anniesland via Maryhill

Despite the high frequency of services, they're all concentrated at about the same time. There are a number of paths available between xx:00 and xx:15 (one of which may soon be used for an Arbroath local service, apparently) and the same gap between xx:30 and xx:45 (the single Aberdeen service varies a bit, but there's easily a slot in there somewhere, especially if you have the Aberdeen train leave a bit earlier).

Anyhoo... having a XC service supplement the E-G services may not work. The E-G services work on less than a 10 minute turnaround, a testament to Scotrail's fine work! A XC service would, naturally, need more (at least 30 minutes), which would throw Scotrail's diagrams into disarray and block valuable platforms at Queen Street. Furthermore, a 4 or 5 car Voyager would not meet the demands of the peak services (with all 6 cars on all trains running pretty full), and has a disproportionately high amount of First Class space for this route. I'd prefer the train to run to Central, with a call at Motherwell to reinstate this valuable commuter route for Lanarkshire.

The problem si 2 lines feeding 7 platforms thus meaning many crossovers in the entrance, and this can block entry / exit for a period. Hence the flighting. During the 'empty bits' you will often find several arrivals.

The only way I could see XC working would be if they build the Kelvinhaugh turnback and XC traveling via A&B. The issue will be catching up with stoppers.
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The new Caledonian Express from Edinburgh - Central Limited Stop could be arranged to leave from the Glasgow end of the through platforms at Edinburgh (currently used by the thru services to GLC anyway) thus at best it could be a same platform transfer.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I quite agree that the track access to Queen Street presents quite a few challenges and that the number and size of platforms demands high turnarounds, so its very tempting to expect Central to cope with every new demand.
Without wishing to prolong the madness of the Carstairs route, there do seem to be more opportunities for expansion at GLC. With the loss of GARL at the western platforms and the occassional NXEC arrival at the east side, there will be some slack there soon.

The new Caledonian Express from Edinburgh - Central Limited Stop could be arranged to leave from the Glasgow end of the through platforms at Edinburgh (currently used by the thru services to GLC anyway) thus at best it could be a same platform transfer.

This does create more opportunites to use Waverley's through platforms for terminating services but I haven't quite been able to grasp how these, and the GLC opportunities could best be exploited.

 

[yorkie]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8348133.stm

Glasgow 'axed' from train route

Train services on the East Coast Main Line would no longer go to Glasgow and instead terminate at Edinburgh, under new plans which have emerged.

At present, the service leave Kings Cross, travels up the east coast of England before carrying onto Edinburgh then Glasgow.

The new December 2010 timetable is currently under discussion.

The Department of Transport said it would have to go to public consultation for the changes to take place.

Rail watchdog, Passenger Focus, said the group was seeking reassurances about the line's future.

Scottish director James King told BBC Scotland: "At the present time the Department for Transport is consulting on a new timetable for the East Coast route, which will generate more train paths and faster, more consistent journey times between Edinburgh and London.

"As a consequence of that, it is proposed in the timetable that the services that are presently provided between Yorkshire and Glasgow by the East Coast operator are moved to another operator.

"We're looking for reassurance that another operator will be found. They're certainly shown on the timetable as not being operated by the East Coast operator.

"Clearly, there are other operators out there who could pick up the services - potentially TransPennine or Arriva Cross Country. But a deal would have to be done with those operators because it would be a variation of their franchise."

Mr King said a "significant" number of passengers travelling from the north east of England to Glasgow through Edinburgh would be affected, particularly in the mornings going north and evenings going south.
"There's not much of a flow from Glasgow to East Anglia or to London, because the services are provided directly from Glasgow to London Euston," he said.

"But there is a significant flow from the north east of England through to Edinburgh and Glasgow, which would have to be provided by another operator."

Public consultation

Mr King added: "I'm sure negotiations are actively taking place but we are looking for reassurance that this is taking place."

A spokeswoman for the Department of Transport said: "Any changes to train services are a matter for the train operating company.

"Any such changes could only be implemented after public consultation and approval from the department."

The East Coast Main Line is due to transfer to a government-controlled company, East Coast, at one minute before midnight on 13 November.

However, the new timetable changes are not directly linked to the temporary nationalisation.

Looks like a bonus for Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield, Chesterfield and Derby who will gain regular direct Glasgow services for the first time in ages, or maybe ever? while Doncaster and Peterborough will lose out.

 

[djw1981]

How XC will manage to provide stock though?

Out the box idea - FSR to keep the loco + coaches they have on hire, after the proposed 2010 hand back and run Glasgow-Newcastle on an Open Access basis (like WAG Express). I think they may need a 3rd loco hauled rake though and some DVT would be handy...... anyone say WSMR?

 

[william]

Taken from the Beeb

Glasgow 'axed' from train route
The changes would come into effect in December 2010
Train services on the East Coast Main Line would no longer go to Glasgow and instead terminate at Edinburgh, under new plans which have emerged.

At present, the service leaves Kings Cross and travels up the east coast of England before carrying on to Edinburgh, then Glasgow.

The new December 2010 timetable is currently under discussion.

The Department of Transport said it would have to go to public consultation for the changes to take place.

Rail watchdog Passenger Focus said the group was seeking reassurances about the line's future.

Scottish director James King told BBC Scotland: "At the present time the Department for Transport is consulting on a new timetable for the East Coast route, which will generate more train paths and faster, more consistent journey times between Edinburgh and London.

There is a significant flow from the north east of England through to Edinburgh and Glasgow, which would have to be provided by another operator

James King
Passenger Focus
"As a consequence of that, it is proposed in the timetable that the services that are presently provided between Yorkshire and Glasgow by the East Coast operator are moved to another operator.

"We're looking for reassurance that another operator will be found. They're certainly shown on the timetable as not being operated by the East Coast operator.

"Clearly, there are other operators out there who could pick up the services - potentially TransPennine or Arriva Cross Country. But a deal would have to be done with those operators because it would be a variation of their franchise."

Direct services from Glasgow to London Euston will continue.

However, Mr King said a "significant" number of passengers travelling from the north east of England to Glasgow through Edinburgh would be affected, particularly in the mornings going north and evenings going south.

He said there would be a particular impact on key routes to destinations such as Newcastle, York and Doncaster.

"There is a significant flow from the north east of England through to Edinburgh and Glasgow, which would have to be provided by another operator," he said.

Public consultation

He added: "I'm sure negotiations are actively taking place but we are looking for reassurance that this is taking place."

A spokeswoman for the Department of Transport said: "Any changes to train services are a matter for the train operating company.

"Any such changes could only be implemented after public consultation and approval from the department."

The East Coast Main Line is due to transfer to a government-controlled company, East Coast, at one minute before midnight on 13 November.

However, the new timetable changes are not directly linked to the temporary nationalisation.

 

[Bittern]

So, should we be expecting to start seeing trains without their "National Express" logo?

 

[brompton rail]

According to Sunday Times, Lord Adonis insists that the Glasgow East Coast trains are not going to be withdrawn. In any case, surely they are part of the East Coast franchise agreement. DEspite DOR running the East Coast from next weekend they will be abiding by the service delivery side of the franchise, including the York and Lincoln trains. The Network Rail document is a consultation document.

 

[bengolding]

Here is what Auntie has to say about this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8348133.stm

Clearly yet another example of those awful civil servants at the DfT tinkering about with rail timetables. For as long as I can remember, the East Coast has always had a direct service to/from Glasgow Central. Yes, people travelling to/from London will probably use the much improved Virgin service (4 hours 31 as opposed to 5 hours 45) but there is also a lot of custom to the North East and Yorkshire. This is currently under consultation but if approved, customers will face an indirect journey from Glasgow Queen St.

I wonder if Dr Mike Mitchell who was cleared of assault in a buffet car a while back on the ECML is pushing through this change as a way of getting his revenge?

 

[tbtc]

For as long as I can remember, the East Coast has always had a direct service to/from Glasgow Central

It's only been running since the 91s, at a time when the London - Glasgow WCML service was so bad that it offered an alternative. With a speeded up hourly (at times) service on the WCML, it's a waste to send a 91 from Waverley to Central these days.

A Voyager would be a much better use of resources; you'd only need one additional unit to provide a bi-hourly service (the same as the East Coast Franchise saves) - is there one further HST "spare" somewhere that they could add to XC?

One final thing - what are the East Coast franchise (potentially) doing with the 91 "saved" as a result of this cut?

 

[MCR247]

Putting it on Newcastle trains which would normally have a HST?

 

[tbtc]

Putting it on Newcastle trains which would normally have a HST?

...in which case there's an HST spare for XC to boost their services, and extend a Voyager every couple of hours to Glasgow...

Or, as an alternative way of freing up resources, how's about the ECML franchise no longer serving Hull (since Hull Trains do a good job), meaning one rush hour HST could be deployed elsewhere...

 

[yorkie]

It's only been running since the 91s, at a time when the London - Glasgow WCML service was so bad that it offered an alternative.

I'm sure HSTs used to go into Queen Street! I've seen photos.

With a speeded up hourly (at times) service on the WCML, it's a waste to send a 91 from Waverley to Central these days.

The service exists for people from Yorkshire, Newcastle etc, not from London. Admittedly some people may do King's Cross to Glasgow if the fare is cheaper or to avoid claustrophobic conditions, but that's a spin-off.

A Voyager would be a much better use of resources; you'd only need one additional unit to provide a bi-hourly service (the same as the East Coast Franchise saves) - is there one further HST "spare" somewhere that they could add to XC?

XC are planning to have 2 spare HSTs from December!

One final thing - what are the East Coast franchise (potentially) doing with the 91 "saved" as a result of this cut?

The enhanced timetable, as unveiled earlier in this topic.
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From a 1987 timetable:
Departures from GLQ:
0620, 0730, (0855SO)

Arrivals at GLQ:
1845 2253

So it looks like the aim was to provide commuters with plenty of seats from Glasgow to Edinburgh and back, plus a service that could be used by people going from Glasgow to ECML destinations. It wasn't much use for the flows of people from Yorkshire & the North East to Glasgow.

 

[route:oxford]

Is there any (suitable!) stock available right now for a Glasgow-NE-Leeds "open-access" service? Class 90, Mk IIIs (if there are any left) and a DVT?

Going forward a 6-car "Inter-City" specification Turbostar?

 

[me123]

I'm sure HSTs used to go into Queen Street! I've seen photos.

Yes! They did. I don't think there were many workings a day (certainly no more than a handful, and not even as many as we have now into Central), but they existed.

The problem; they were far too long. They had to use Platform 7 and, consequently, blocked 5 and 6! (Track Diagram).

In those days, it obviously wasn't a major problem, but now it would be totally unworkable. You're blocking platform 7 (the longest in the station) and platform 6, which leaves only one platform (2) capable of a 6 carriage train. Platforms 3 and 4 can only take 5 cars and P1 can only take 3! Consequently, it simply would not work.

Voyagers wouldn't be too bad, although I question the sense in running them to Queen Street. Again, they may not be able to access every platform, would require long turnarounds in a pretty busy station, and would mess up Scotrail's efficient diagrams (with quick 8 minute turnarounds).

Running XC to Central would by far be the best use of resources, which has the added bonus of retaining the valuable Motherwell-Edinburgh commuter corridor and adding direct trains to Leeds and Sheffield (albeit via a rather convoluted route). It will serve most passengers for Glasgow (from the North East) and many more in the new service to Leeds. Whilst the loss of Doncaster and Peterborough would be significant, providing a simple change at Newcastle or York (or even Edinburgh) would work.

 

[yorkie]

Running XC to Central would by far be the best use of resources, which has the added bonus of retaining the valuable Motherwell-Edinburgh commuter corridor and adding direct trains to Leeds and Sheffield (albeit via a rather convoluted route). It will serve most passengers for Glasgow (from the North East) and many more in the new service to Leeds. Whilst the loss of Doncaster and Peterborough would be significant, providing a simple change at Newcastle or York (or even Edinburgh) would work.

I'm in total agreement; it's pretty much what I've been saying all along.

I know this won't please people from Peterborough, but I think it's best for more people overall. I know there will be the "what about connections via Peterborough?" argument... but if they're going from Norwich or Cambridge then, to be honest, they may as well go via London. A Norwich to Glasgow walk-on fare valid via London should be introduced. If journey time is not a problem but mobility is, then they will have same-platform interchanges at both Chesterfield (for XC) or Manchester (for TPE).

The amount of route learning involved will be minimal or non-existent, given that XC already operate a few services to Glasgow. As for rolling stock, XC are planning to use 2 less HSTs from December, so that's a start....

 

[TheBigD]

XC are planning to have 2 spare HSTs from December!

Not according to XC. Same 4 diagrams will run. All 5 sets will be reduced to 6 carriages by removing 2 standard coaches.

 

[tbtc]

I'm sure HSTs used to go into Queen Street! I've seen photos

Yeah, I was just replying to Voyagerdude saying that they had gone to Central for as long as he could remember. ScotRail used to be great at finding "unused" InterCity stock that they could "borrow" in place of their paths, e.g. the Highland Cheiftan was introduced when they found out there was an HST diagram that didn't start from Edinburgh until mid morning, and one that ended in Edinburgh at tea time. Good use of resources.

As I've said before, the logical thing (if there were Voyagers spare) would be to run the XC service to Glasgow in the path of the new "semi fast" via Shotts.
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Not according to XC. Same 4 diagrams will run. All 5 sets will be reduced to 6 carriages by removing 2 standard coaches.

Six coaches?

Bad news if it's true

 

[jamesontheroad]

Being an occasional GLC-PBO passenger (yes, we exist) this obviously isn't great news. Not simply because I'd prefer not to change en route, but also because running Voyagers under the wires from Edinburgh to Glasgow via Motherwell is yet another example of completely thoughtless use of our electrified infrastructure.

The trouble is many XC services are already rammed between York and Edinburgh. Extending them to GLC will mean more passengers into already busy diagrams.

My suggestion is that if an HST is released from electrified duties on the ECML, it should be handed over to XC for a new hybrid WCML / ECML cross country route to re-connect Scotland and the north-west with the east coast and East Anglia: Norwich - Peterborough - York - Carlisle - Glasgow.

 

[bengolding]

Thinking about this furher, I think it is a sensible move. Any London-Glasgow passengers via the ECML would be crazy due to the much improved journey timings along the beaitufl WCML.

Now, the NXEC departs Central at xx:50. The last time I was on it, it took an hour to reach Haymarket and 1:05 to reach Waverley. It is far quicker and time effective to get a FSR from Queen St 10 minutes later at xx:00, which takes 50 mins to reach Waverley, and then a 10 minute connection onto the NXEC.

But 2 points:

- The key losers would be Motherwell. Only NXEC offers a fast two hourly service from Central to Motherwell, since Virgin don't stop there. What about Motherwell to Edinburgh?

- I recall that when I examined the draft ECML 2010 timetable, the NXEC trains from Waverley to Kings Cross departed at xx:30, arriving into Kings Cross 4 hours 20 mins later at xx:50. Now, these are fast from York, so anybody travelling from Glasgow to Peterborough would face a much longer journey time, having to change at Waverley and also at Newcastle or York. I still think it is absurd for the silly civil servants at the DfT to make the xx:30s from Waverley fast from York to Kings Cross. Peterborough is a major railhead for services to the East Midlands, East Anglia and Cambridge. Removal of the PBO stop will just make other NXEC services busier. I used to use the 'express' 13:50 NXEC from Glasgow to Peterborough often and many alighted at PBO just before 18:30.

 

[jopsuk]

My suggestion is that if an HST is released from electrified duties on the ECML, it should be handed over to XC for a new hybrid WCML / ECML cross country route to re-connect Scotland and the north-west with the east coast and East Anglia: Norwich - Peterborough - York - Carlisle - Glasgow.

Hmm. An interesting idea. Would you put in a stop at Ely (with a reversal required, like the current Norwich-Liverpool EMT services) or use the "straight through" loop? The former would add much more ease to the connection possibilities (as someone who fairly often travels Cambridge-Stirling).

A Motherwell stop, for improved Glasgow-Motherwell connections?

What route between York and Carlisle? Any intermediate stops in that section?

And how many a day?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Instead of Norwich, it could run to Harwich International, it could be called The European

 

[jamesontheroad]

Hmm. An interesting idea. Would you put in a stop at Ely (with a reversal required, like the current Norwich-Liverpool EMT services) or use the "straight through" loop? The former would add much more ease to the connection possibilities (as someone who fairly often travels Cambridge-Stirling).

Yes, absolutely.

A Motherwell stop, for improved Glasgow-Motherwell connections?

Again yes.

What route between York and Carlisle? Any intermediate stops in that section?

My mistake... should have said Carlisle and Leeds, so we can make full use of the Settle and Carlisle route. Although I'm open to suggestions, I'm not 100% certain of the implications of that route.

So:

Glasgow Central - Motherwell - Lockerbie - Carlisle - Skipton - Leeds - Wakefield - Doncaster - Newark - Peterborough - Ely - Thetford - Norwich.

The main complaint about the swapping LGX - GLC trains for XC services extending beyond EDI is that destinations lower down the ECML suffer. So if there aren't enough passengers to justify PBO - GLC, then it could become an opportunity to create a new diagonal route across the country. XC could pick up the slack on the upper end of the ECML to GLC, and this could serve the eastern counties and reconnect the north-west with the east.

And how many a day?

Hmm. Tough one. If you run them, people will use them, because there are so many potential short and long distance connections possible. Having said that XC might operate it, it doesn't pass through any of their crew bases. So I don't really know the answer to that question. Perhaps it's an open access bid just waiting to happen...

Instead of Norwich, it could run to Harwich International, it could be called The European

I did think of that, but the reason The European was culled was because fewer and fewer people use the train to reach cross-channel ferries out of Harwich. Norwich would seem to be a better fit as a terminus.

 

[Andrew]

The main complaint about the swapping LGX - GLC trains for XC services extending beyond EDI is that destinations lower down the ECML suffer.

Please learn your three letter codes. KGX and EDB.

 

[MCR247]

Everyone's moaning about 'oh Peterborough lose out' (I'm sure someone even said Cambridge?) but if XC services are extended it gives the East Midlands (say Derby & Sheffield) a direct service to Glasgow

 

[dk1]

Hmm. An interesting idea. Would you put in a stop at Ely (with a reversal required, like the current Norwich-Liverpool EMT services) or use the "straight through" loop? The former would add much more ease to the connection possibilities (as someone who fairly often travels Cambridge-Stirling).

Unfortunatly the Ely West Curve is only operational in the Westbound (down) direction & has been ever since commisioned in 1991 & all bi-di signals 'hooded'. The junction is also double blocked. Hopefully these restrictions will be removed within the next couple of years following TPWS now introduced & some remedial work on a set of points.

Even so i would think it highly unlikely we would ever see a Scotland-East Anglia service.

 

[gingerheid]

Everyone's moaning about 'oh Peterborough lose out' (I'm sure someone even said Cambridge?) but if XC services are extended it gives the East Midlands (say Derby & Sheffield) a direct service to Glasgow

Including me.

I'm amazed how many fellow travellers there are in this thread that change at Peterborough from East Anglia and head somewhere past Edinburgh. We should have a Peterborough to past Edinburgh forum meet or something...

Joking apart...

I lover the WCML - Settle - ECML - Norwich idea. Anyone want to suggest it to Grand Central? It sounds like exactly their kinna service!

It also (in a world similarly as perfect as the one that sees proper use of the Settle line) could be augmented by Edinburgh - Newcastle stopper services that the good people of East Linton so desperately want.

It doesn't deal with Glasgow - Newcastle (and Motherwell - Edinburgh), however.

 

[Greenback]

Including me.

I'm amazed how many fellow travellers there are in this thread that change at Peterborough from East Anglia and head somewhere past Edinburgh. We should have a Peterborough to past Edinburgh forum meet or something...

Joking apart...

I lover the WCML - Settle - ECML - Norwich idea. Anyone want to suggest it to Grand Central? It sounds like exactly their kinna service!

It also (in a world similarly as perfect as the one that sees proper use of the Settle line) could be augmented by Edinburgh - Newcastle stopper services that the good people of East Linton so desperately want.

It doesn't deal with Glasgow - Newcastle (and Motherwell - Edinburgh), however.

Extend the Edinburgh - Newcastle stoppers to Glasgow Central? This might improve services at places like Alnmouth too. I like the idea of Glasgow - Norwich as well!

 

[jopsuk]

So, all that needs to be done infrastructure wise is to build a few looped stations along the Newcastle-Edinburgh line (for the local stoppers) and resignal the S&C to improve capacity there? Simple!

 

[gordonthemoron]

So, all that needs to be done infrastructure wise is to build a few looped stations along the Newcastle-Edinburgh line (for the local stoppers) and resignal the S&C to improve capacity there? Simple!

They could also electrify Carlisle to Skipton

 

[jamesontheroad]

I'm amazed how many fellow travellers there are in this thread that change at Peterborough from East Anglia and head somewhere past Edinburgh. We should have a Peterborough to past Edinburgh forum meet or something...

No, it's just me. I spend too much time here...

Please learn your three letter codes. KGX and EDB.

...although obviously not enough time for some