ECML Southern improvements

[A-driver]

I don't know if its just a misprint in the route packs we have been given for the flyover but by the maps I have seen they are removing the position 5 indicator on the down slow signal at the end of hitchin station meaning you won't be able to cross the flat junction from the slow line. The points will still be there though. Seems a bit short sighted though.

 

[D365]

LE Grays, I was waffling along on my own thoughts. Ignore if you wish Why retain the current flat junction without means of using it? Might be useful if a train breaks down on the flyover.

- Or ECML diversions (please wire Felixstowe-Nuneaton including Ely-Peterborough!) and all sorts of stuff.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

LE Grays, I was waffling along on my own thoughts. Ignore if you wish Why retain the current flat junction without means of using it? Might be useful if a train breaks down on the flyover.

From my own observation 10 days ago, there is a 'facing' connection from the down fast to down slow line to the north of the existing flat junction. Not being local to the area, I don't know if that is newly-installed, but I don't recall seeing it there on the odd occasion that I have waited on the down platform at Hitchin, awaiting a Cambridge stopping service. It will presumably allow access to the flyover from the down fast line.
I believe the previous poster indicated that the ability to access the flat junction from the down slow / down platform is to be removed. He does not explicity state that it will not be accessible from the down fast, however. If that ability is retained, it could provide the following:
a) a non-stop KX - Cambridge service could still, as now, pass a Peterborough service on the approaches to, or sitting in the platform at, Hitchin station with no delay caused to either service; also
b) a slow-moving freight or Cambridge stopper could be routed onto the flyover and a non-stop KX - Cambridge service could then use the flat junction as (in effect) a passing loop. Such a facility could also be useful in the event of engineering possessions sending ECML services to Peterborough via Cambridge/Ely

 

[Fred26]

From my own observation 10 days ago, there is a 'facing' connection from the down fast to down slow line to the north of the existing flat junction. Not being local to the area, I don't know if that is newly-installed, but I don't recall seeing it there on the odd occasion that I have waited on the down platform at Hitchin, awaiting a Cambridge stopping service. It will presumably allow access to the flyover from the down fast line.
I believe the previous poster indicated that the ability to access the flat junction from the down slow / down platform is to be removed. He does not explicity state that it will not be accessible from the down fast, however. If that ability is retained, it could provide the following:
a) a non-stop KX - Cambridge service could still, as now, pass a Peterborough service on the approaches to, or sitting in the platform at, Hitchin station with no delay caused to either service; also
b) a slow-moving freight or Cambridge stopper could be routed onto the flyover and a non-stop KX - Cambridge service could then use the flat junction as (in effect) a passing loop. Such a facility could also be useful in the event of engineering possessions sending ECML services to Peterborough via Cambridge/Ely

I can't imagine they'll run anything across the flat junction once the flyover is complete - the idea is to completely remove conflict. It'd be a good idea to retain the link though, just in case.

 

[D365]

Deleted? At least the flat will be kept operational.

 

[Aictos]

The flat junction will still see use by freight trains unable to use the flyover and by passenger trains when the flyover route is closed for engineering works.

Network Rail have already said countless times that one of the two routes will always be available in order to run trains towards Cambridge.

More information here

 

[philjo]

There is a down fast to slow crossover just north of Hitchin station, but the rails on that have been fairly rusty over the last few years. There was a time where that was out of use - when the other points at Cambridge junction were replaced the connection was not put back for some time afterwards.
Is that crossover being upgraded to allow higher speeds?

 

[LE Greys]

There is a down fast to slow crossover just north of Hitchin station, but the rails on that have been fairly rusty over the last few years. There was a time where that was out of use - when the other points at Cambridge junction were replaced the connection was not put back for some time afterwards.
Is that crossover being upgraded to allow higher speeds?

No evidence of it. I'll check on Monday. AIUI, that's been there since at least 1980, although I can't tell you when it was in use or not. I can say I've never seen it used.

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting blog that is. I'm trying to find a track diagram as I'm curious as to how [towards] Cambridge fasts will slot in around slow-line up Peterborough services.

Presume that's a mistake, ie that up should really have been a down? Why would up (towards London) trains from Peterborough be relevant at all?

 

[D365]

Presume that's a mistake, ie that up should really have been a down? Why would up (towards London) trains from Peterborough be relevant at all?

Sorry, I thought up was away from London i.e. northwards

 

[D1009]

There is a down fast to slow crossover just north of Hitchin station, but the rails on that have been fairly rusty over the last few years. There was a time where that was out of use - when the other points at Cambridge junction were replaced the connection was not put back for some time afterwards.
Is that crossover being upgraded to allow higher speeds?

I was given to understand that the crossover will be replaced with one nearer to the flyover junction which will allow 60 mph, though speed on parts of the flyover line itself may be slightly less. Overall there is a slight increase in distance and therefore journey time compared with current.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry, I thought up was away from London i.e. northwards

No problems - but you can see why what you put will have made people wonder now...

 

[D365]

*Facepalm* How are up/down directions defined, if not by geography?

 

[Eagle]

*Facepalm* How are up/down directions defined, if not by geography?

Mileposts. Up is the direction in which mileposts decrease. Which in this part of the country is almost always towards London.

 

[ainsworth74]

How are up/down directions defined, if not by geography?

Either by the direction to London, the company headquarters (normally from when the line was built) or just whatever the engineers felt like making it.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I was given to understand that the crossover will be replaced with one nearer to the flyover junction which will allow 60 mph, though speed on parts of the flyover line itself may be slightly less. Overall there is a slight increase in distance and therefore journey time compared with current.

Not neccessarily. On paper, yes. In real-time operation of the railway, not always.

Many has been the time I've been a down Cambridge train that's been running late, and then been delayed still further in the platform at Hitchin, waiting for either a fast Northbound service to pass, and / or an up service to go through before my train can snake across the flat junction.

So going the 'long way' on the viaduct may in such cases lead to a shorter end-to-end journey experience, despite what the timetable says.

I would concede, however, that timetables would need to show an overall 1-2 (?) minute difference between journeys in the down direction and the up direction, between Hitchin and Letchworth, once the viaduct is brought into use. Punctuality should improve when unplanned dwell times at Hitchin are eliminated.

 

[yorkie]

*Facepalm* How are up/down directions defined, if not by geography?

Down is heading away from London (or the original Company HQ). See: rail directions
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was given to understand that the crossover will be replaced with one nearer to the flyover junction which will allow 60 mph, though speed on parts of the flyover line itself may be slightly less. Overall there is a slight increase in distance and therefore journey time compared with current.

Really? The existing crossover is only 25mph I believe, and curve east of Hitchin is very tight, around 40mph. Then there's sometimes a wait for a path.

Having a go at SimSig Kings Cross (free download but registration required) can give an idea of the sort of problems the existing junction causes.

The xx06 Kings Cross - Cambridge is almost guaranteed to be late at Hitchin because the timetable is unrealistic. This means the xx30 from Kings Cross is almost guaranteed to encounter adverse signals on the approach to Hitchin and, as a result is almost guaranteed to depart Peterborough late. (Exceptions to this today are 1206 on time amazingly, 1306 was sufficiently late that the 1330 overtook it at Hitchin).

 

[A-driver]

The flyover won't increase journey times as its going to be 65mph rather than the current 40mph (or 25 from the slow).

Also there will be flashing signals down to the junction as opposed to the current fixed red at Cambridge junction on the down fast so cruisers won't have to slow down to a red which is hidden round the corner complete with TPWS and TPWS+ to further slow you down.

 

[class26]

The flyover won't increase journey times as its going to be 65mph rather than the current 40mph (or 25 from the slow).

Also there will be flashing signals down to the junction as opposed to the current fixed red at Cambridge junction on the down fast so cruisers won't have to slow down to a red which is hidden round the corner complete with TPWS and TPWS+ to further slow you down.

In Modern Railways it stated the speed of the flyover to be 50 mph

 

[A-driver]

In Modern Railways it stated the speed of the flyover to be 50 mph

Well all the route learning materials we have seen states 65

 

[Lee_Again]

Guys, the benefit is the reduced delays by not crossing on the flat. The speed over the viaduct in many respects makes no difference. Who cares if it is another 1 or 2 minutes in the timetable.

I'd rather a 45 minute journey take 45 minutes than a 43 minute journey regularly taking 50, even if one in 5 was on time.

FWIW - I'd tend to go with a driver than a magazine (albeit a good one) when it comes to speed restrictions.

 

[D1009]

Well all the route learning materials we have seen states 65

? Are there already route learning materials for a line which isn't even built yet ?

If there are, I would guess they are not yet set in stone, so to speak !

 

[A-driver]

? Are there already route learning materials for a line which isn't even built yet ?

If there are, I would guess they are not yet set in stone, so to speak !

We get regular briefings about ongoing works such as ali pali area, hornsey depot, finsbury park
South, hitchin flyover, Hertford-Stevenage, nene sidings etc which include info on what workers are doing exactly so we know what to watch out for when passing aswell as advanced info on what is likely when its completed so they don't have to send us all out route learning at once. Last briefing on all that included track diagrams with signals/proposed speeds/route indications etc.

Of course things may change in the next few months.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Having a go at SimSig Kings Cross (free download but registration required) can give an idea of the sort of problems the existing junction causes.

I've tried several times downloading SimSig but get an error message when I try to run it.

 

[A-driver]

Sorry to drag up an old thread but I relation to the speeds of the hitchin flyover I have just seen a new route map saying the speeds will be 80 as current from hitchin to Cadwell, 70 over the points, 50 over the bridge, 55 over the curve and points at stotfold road then 80 as current.

 

[philjo]

The points by Stotfold Road were installed on Sunday. This will be known as Hitchin East Junction.

Network Rail held an open day at the site on Saturday but unfortunately I didn't see any publicity so only found out the following day. Report here :

http://hitchingradeseparation.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/site-visit-report-24th-november.html

The points at the Ickleford end will be installed over Christmas, and will be known as Hitchin North Junction.
Line due to be open in June 2013.

 

[Fred26]

Does anyone know what the speed limit will be on the converted goods line between Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park? Also, what are the speeds of the other lines on that stretch?

Thanks.

 

[Aictos]

Does anyone know what the speed limit will be on the converted goods line between Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park? Also, what are the speeds of the other lines on that stretch?

Thanks.

Not sure but I would have thought it be a similar speed to the Up Slow?

Up Slow
Alexandra Palace 60mph for passenger/35mph for freight
Finsbury Park 55mph for passenger/35mph for freight

Up Fast
Alexandra Palace 90mph for all services
Harringay 90mph for all services
Finsbury Park 90mph for all services

Down Fast
Finsbury Park 90mph for all services
Hornsey 95mph for all services
Alexandra Palace 95mph for all services

Down Slow 1
Finsbury Park 55mph for passenger/35mph for freight
Harringay 60mph for passenger/35mph for freight
Alexandra Palace 75mph for all services

Down Slow 2
40mph for all services

Think you might find this useful

 

[A-driver]

Not sure but I would have thought it be a similar speed to the Up Slow?

Up Slow
Alexandra Palace 60mph for passenger/35mph for freight
Finsbury Park 55mph for passenger/35mph for freight

Up Fast
Alexandra Palace 90mph for all services
Harringay 90mph for all services
Finsbury Park 90mph for all services

Down Fast
Finsbury Park 90mph for all services
Hornsey 95mph for all services
Alexandra Palace 95mph for all services

Down Slow 1
Finsbury Park 55mph for passenger/35mph for freight
Harringay 60mph for passenger/35mph for freight
Alexandra Palace 75mph for all services

Down Slow 2
40mph for all services

Think you might find this useful

Up fast is 95 from wood green through Ali Pali to harringay, then 90 then 80 at Finsbury park.

Down slow 1 isn't 75 until wood green tunnel so 60 still at Ali Pali.

 

[EffSeeSee]

Hello.

Does anyone know what the use and layout of Alexandra Palace will be once the platform remodelling is complete? It looks like the new platform is temporary, as it's half the usual width and is using a lot of wood!

I envisaged the freight/shunting line to be a new up slow line, but there doesn't seem to be enough permanence in the new platform.

FCC are being a bit rubbish in explaining what's happening, as are NR.

Any ideas?