Economic Case for the Far North Line

[najaB]

If a service cannot be run on a quiet branch line with few other passengers and no freight...

Neither of which are true of the FNL south of Tain. There's very little room to run new services, especially between Dingwall and Inverness.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think the point here is that Invergordon is a stop on cruiseship's itineraries - it's not a start/end port.

That is one difference. (A very important one, I agree.)
Another is the stock and crews were provided by a specialist operator (not, as in this case, by the local TOC, which is pushed for stock as it is).
And it worked over a long distance, ie you can charge a decent whack for the fares, not 30 miles as in Invergordon - Inverness, or even less in the case of Beauly.
Another is the Cruise Saver Express ran over main lines with at least two tracks for 99.9% of journies. Nobody running them had ever heard of the "need for the Lentran loop".
Finally, as the poster himself pointed out - it seems, even with all those advantages, that these Cruise Saver Expresses are notable for their absence - ie have not been a commercial success.
So, all in all, a great model for serving the cruise ships stopping off at Invergordon?

 

[paul1609]

I'm not sure if this has been covered before, forgive me if it hasn't but the construction of the spaceport at the A'Mhoine peninsula presents a possible source of goods traffic to Georgemas Junction goods yard and trucked from then on. If it , in future, became a major passenger spaceport, a dedicated branch could be constructed to the site and the profits from this used to shore up the rest of the FNL, potentially funding the Dornoch link and the Lentran Loop from this windfall.

Surely people will just use transporters to beam to the spaceport negating any need for the far north line?

 

[70014IronDuke]

To be blunt, you are completely wrong. My friend runs a company which I won't name but it's a "WOW", who do a lot of business out of Invergordon and use coaches.

Right - so we can agree that coaches are a wow form of transport for cruise passengers then? That certainly doesn't make the previous poster 'completely wrong' does it?

Coaches are very hard to come by in the summer (I rent them out for youth trips).

Aha! So we can agree again - there is very heavy demand - in summer! (Hint, what does Scotrail do with unwanted - expensive - trains and crews in winter, with no cruise ships?)

My ex is a tour guide for the Highlands of Scotland Tour Guide Association. I short, I know both from first hand experience and from people who are experts in the area that there is interested in using the railway.

Tour guide: I have a party of 25 tourists who'd like to go to XYZ. But there are no coaches.
Other voice (ignorant of the reality on the FNL): ER, what about trains?

Ths proves there " is interest in trains" - that would be normal - it doesn't prove the tourist party would all agree and cough up the dosh to use the train for the hoped for visit - not when all other factors are combined and the dosh has to be paid. Those other factors include the train rarely going to exactly where the tourist wants to go. The coach usually does exactly that.

I'm sure that if a train could be laid on to the right tourist attraction it can attract custom, even from Invergordon. I'm sure thousands, tens of thousands of tourists travel to Oxford, Cambridge, York, Edinburgh etc every year by train from London and other major cities. But the context is totaly different from that of Invergordon population a couple of thousand, on a single line tertiary route, and average use of station per day at around 75 entrances and exits.

To complete my post, I refer back to the start and note that when my ex tried to get in touch with Scotrail about using the railway she was rebuffed. ...

Which post is this please (I did an initial look, but couldn't find it.).

 

[6Gman]

It would be, but are we over-complicating it? Dornoch is about 50 miles from Invergordon, and the train ride is quite pretty as you go up the coast and then in around Lairg. What could be interesting would be a (steam?) train one way to Golspie and a coach back (or vice versa), with cruise passengers having a couple of hours in Dornoch to look around or go to the castle.

Railmiles says Golspie is 52m 63 ch from Invergordon, so an hour and half on the train (service trains seem to be 1h 15m - 1h 19m with seven stops), and 2-3 hours in Dornoch and return by coach would be a nice length of day with plenty of time to get back to the ship. Operationally, K1 + 7 Mk 1s, running round at Brora? And how soon will the new V4 be ready?

Or they could just go by coach there and back.

In the context of a line which already receives a huge subsidy I find it unlikely that running a one-way train on random dates across the summer (traincrew - if available - having to come from Inverness; stock from God knows where) is going to do anything to help the situation.

The Jacobite works because it's been there for years; the locos and rolling stock go up in the Spring, back in the Autumn; there's a base right next to where the train runs from; there's an ideal length of journey for a day trip; you've got Glenfinnan halfway and you've got the Harry Potter connection.

Believe me - and I used to plan charter trains - the bills rack up with every extra element you add.

 

[6Gman]

So you’re saying Scotrail won’t get a slice of the action.....?

The income wouldn't even pay for a whole meal!

 

[6Gman]

Thank you. I am not saying that a steam train, Royal Scotsman or Jacobite operation would be a success or not. I don't know and that would need some proper investigation.

I am saying the attitude on the railway is very backward, stuck in the past and with a sense of importance. I run coaches over many months for groups of young people. All over Scotland but mainly in the Highlands. Some companies exhibit a railway-like attitude when it comes to logisitics but they are in the minority.

But the coach trade is by its very nature more flexible than the railway.

I will concede that the current railway structure builds in a degree of extra inflexibility [one entity provides the track access, a second entity operates the train, someone else provides the loco, the stock comes from someone else ... and as for traincrew ... ] but certainly in my time we would go out of our way to provide some very off-beat services. But sometimes it's just impractical.

 

[route101]

...on top of which cruise ships disgorge an enormous number of people quite infrequently and very erratically. There are already problems in S Queensferry due to ships anchoring in the Firth and sending passengers ashore in tenders: All parking is banned in the town to accommodate the coaches needed and the local area gets a complete vacuum in visitors for the whole day as those who land are whisked off into Edinburgh.
In a railway context there is almost no spare rolling stock anyway, and on top of that in the more remote parts of the network we have reduced the infrastructure to the point where we probably couldn't run more trains anyway. I suppose that if DRS were running "their" freight on a line they could juggle the days run so that a tourist train could use the same path, but the timings would probably not fit.

Seen this on Friday from the Forth Rai lBridge . I wondered why they wouldnt dock at Leith? Where is immigration carried out?

 

[InOban]

It would be interesting to know the sort of employment contract used for the coach drivers, to permit the 'on demand's nature of this business. It probably isn't a zero hours one, more likely an annualised hours one, where staff are paid on the basis of, say , 1700 hours per annum, but work flexibly within that. (Certainly our Council roads staff work that way, to accommodate the unpredictable demand for gritting, emergency repairs, etc). I can't imagine the unions accepting this - or do some freight staff work that way? Whatever, I don't think we can lay the blame for the lack of enterprise entirely on management. Quite apart from the fact that any such tourist charter would have to pay the full cost and fares, not the subsidised franchise fares.

 

[BRX]

A couple of people have mentioned the idea that cruise passengers may want their 'hands held' rather than making their own way by train. I don't see that this needs to be an obstacle - a group can simply be accompanied by a guide. It's not unusual to see tour groups like this in, say, germany - on fact you'll often see a whole carriage booked out by a tour group.

 

[najaB]

The income wouldn't even pay for a whole meal!

They could, of course, have a secure breadbox-sized cupboard to store them in.

It's not unusual to see tour groups like this in, say, germany - on fact you'll often see a whole carriage booked out by a tour group.

Can anyone say Class 153...

 

[BRX]

Regarding the points about the under-utilisation of stock that would only see use for say 4 or 5 months of the year - how are the economics that the coach companies deal with substantially different? Because if there is a row of ten coaches that services each cruise liner they must also sit unused for a portion of the year.

 

[najaB]

Because if there is a row of ten coaches that services each cruise liner they must also sit unused for a portion of the year.

Coaches are more easily moved to capture other business e.g. lots of Christmas party work, for example.

 

[railjock]

There seems to be significantly more interest in the FNL on here than there appears to be amongst potential local passengers.

 

[6Gman]

There seems to be significantly more interest in the FNL on here than there appears to be amongst potential local passengers.

A very good point.

Seriously, there seem to be two extreme options for the FNL.

1. Carry on much as it is with a bit of patching here and there, perhaps some minor infrastructure improvements; the 158s eventually being replaced by something (but not bespoke sightseeing luxury carriages).
2. Spend a lot - and I mean a lot - on infrastructure, perhaps even a cut-off to reduce journey times (but what do you do about the places by-passed?) and fancy-dan stock. You might get a (modest?) increase in income, but unlikely to justify the expenditure.

Or somewhere in-between.

In that context whether or not you run trains for the cruises is a minor element.

 

[mcmad]

Actually the opposite extreme option to 2 is cut your losses and shut the line. Option 1 is the status quo which is likely what will happen as no government is going to want to be remembered as the ones who closed the line but neither is anyone likely to pump the 100's of millions into the route either.

 

[haggishunter]

The Lentran Loop isn’t at either end of the extremes but is significantly more than patch and make do.

It’s a relatively modest capital project that would enable a transformational step change in rail services around the inner Moray Firth, where the population is on an upwards trajectory. Rail use at all stations from Tain or Ardgay would grow substantially if the service was more regular.

At the moment you have periods where travel in one direction to or from Inverness to Dingwall approaches metro-esq frequency, then bang nothing for 3.5hours. The timetable isn’t based on demand or potential demand, it’s entirely (lack of) infrastructure driven.

Charters or tourist trains over and above the franchised passenger service could make a contribution to the line, but at the moment they physically can’t!

A question for those in the know, are there any paths through to/from Dingwall for a regular charter working from Inverness or only at absurd times?

 

[6Gman]

Actually the opposite extreme option to 2 is cut your losses and shut the line. Option 1 is the status quo which is likely what will happen as no government is going to want to be remembered as the ones who closed the line but neither is anyone likely to pump the 100's of millions into the route either.

Indeed, I discounted it for exactly that reason.

 

[herb21]

Seen this on Friday from the Forth Rai lBridge . I wondered why they wouldnt dock at Leith? Where is immigration carried out?

No Idea where immigration is carried out but I believe that the South Queensferry and Newhaven Anchorages have no limit to the keel and air drafts, while Rosyth and Leith do. Additionally Leith can only accommodate vessels up to 220m long although has a berth of 375m (not sure what the limiting factor is). Rosyth has a 500m berth but normally only accepts vessels up to 250m but can accept longer. I have no idea on the relative number of patrons and the effect of the parking restrictions, but living in South Queensferry when the cruise ships are in even though most passengers take the buses into the city or coaches all over East/Central Scotland, there is still a noted uptick in the number of foreign tourists. Hopefully the mooted improvements to the highstreet layout will reduce the parking restrictions going forward, and these are really needed anyway.

 

[InOban]

Last time I visited Hopetoun House, which looks over to Rosyth, there were two large cruise liners in. I suspect that it is easier to ensure port security in Rosyth than in Leith.

I am sure that there are special arrangements for shore visits by the passengers - doesn't the Captain hold the passports? Certainly in Oban the small liners which take on their passengers (eg Hebridean Princess) use the Lighthouse Pier, which has security, while the visiting liners land directly on to the public pier.

 

[Tobbes]

Or they could just go by coach there and back.

Sure, you'd be offering a premium experience to cruise passengers at a premium price.

In the context of a line which already receives a huge subsidy I find it unlikely that running a one-way train on random dates across the summer (traincrew - if available - having to come from Inverness; stock from God knows where) is going to do anything to help the situation.

In fairness, I was proposing that the cruise passengers take the bus in one direction and the train in the other, spreading the cost of the (almost certainly) more expensive train ride.

The Jacobite works because it's been there for years; the locos and rolling stock go up in the Spring, back in the Autumn; there's a base right next to where the train runs from; there's an ideal length of journey for a day trip; you've got Glenfinnan halfway and you've got the Harry Potter connection.

Believe me - and I used to plan charter trains - the bills rack up with every extra element you add.

I'm sure that's right. What I'd like to market test is whether there is a market for this amongst cruise passengers, and what the price point is. I get that in the atomised railway excess capacity is ruthlessly driven out, and that all involved will want their pound of flesh as cross-subsidy doesn't come into play. But if you could run seven Mk 1s full in both directions, it would be interesting to see how the numbers played out.

 

[Steamysandy]

Seen this on Friday from the Forth Rai lBridge . I wondered why they wouldnt dock at Leith? Where is immigration carried out?

Answers have already appeared but as I understand it ,there is a lock on the entrance to Leith which precludes Cruise Liners going in there.
I have memories from years back of seeing the Cunard liner Caronia and the Norway(ex France) lying off Queensferry not to mention the QE2 and the newer Queen Elizabeth as well in more recent times

 

[6Gman]

What I'd like to market test is whether there is a market for this amongst cruise passengers, and what the price point is. I get that in the atomised railway excess capacity is ruthlessly driven out, and that all involved will want their pound of flesh as cross-subsidy doesn't come into play. But if you could run seven Mk 1s full in both directions, it would be interesting to see how the numbers played out.

That option is, of course, open to the existing charter operators (or to the cruise operators). I don't know whether it's that they've never considered it, or whether they've looked at it and considered it impractical.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Regarding the points about the under-utilisation of stock that would only see use for say 4 or 5 months of the year - how are the economics that the coach companies deal with substantially different? Because if there is a row of ten coaches that services each cruise liner they must also sit unused for a portion of the year.

A coach does not need to be cleared for each and every road. Nor do drivers have to "sign for the road" as rail staff do. I am sure even coach operators have their slack periods - it can't be helped - but if you are a coach operator based in (say) Inverness, you can spend your summer working Invergordon and other local pick up places - and move off down to Edinburgh for the busy Christmas-New Year season etc. And I suspect there may well be informal agreements to help each other out. A coach operator is far more flexible with what he/she wants to take on.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Sure, you'd be offering a premium experience to cruise passengers at a premium price.

ON a coach? I doubt it would be any more premium than a rail trip with guide, at least in the majority of cases.

I'm sure that's right. What I'd like to market test is whether there is a market for this amongst cruise passengers, and what the price point is. I get that in the atomised railway excess capacity is ruthlessly driven out, and that all involved will want their pound of flesh as cross-subsidy doesn't come into play. But if you could run seven Mk 1s full in both directions, it would be interesting to see how the numbers played out.

I think we are getting a bit confused here as to what is being talked about. (perhaps understandably, it's the nature of things.)

AS I understood it, the OP was talking about tourists 'making their own way in their free time when docked in Invergordon using the railway'.
And the OP was saying that the regular service is crap for almost any such adventures.

I think most in here would agree - even as dedicated rail fans/users who understand the vagaries of Scotrail (in this case) - it would probably be pretty difficult to arrange much except, perhaps, a train ride to somewhere and back - with the current timetable.

But even if we pretend that the infrastructure could or did allow more, I think there are two, maybe three different concepts emerging here:

a) cruise pax using the bog standard timetabled trains (just with a better service than now)
b) cruise pad being provided with some sort of "Royal Scotsman-like luxury train ride" to .... Kyle of Lochalsh or wherever, where the train itself is definitely part of THE experience.
c) and something in between - perhaps you are suggesting this - a charter train to get a decent number of people to some tourist destination - but where the train is pretty much utility transport, not especially part of THE experience. (although not a negative experience, of course).

The three are all rather different proposals, even if the current infrastructure/pathing limitations could be overcome.

 

[gingertom]

The vast majority of cruise passengers are generally doing prebooked shore excursions to places like Urquhart Castle, Culloden, Eilean Donan Castle* and Fort William. They require a very high degree of reliability in being able to return folk to the ship at the right time. Neither of these characteristics make the railway a particularly suitable medium for transporting cruise passengers..
*many of whom then go on to Kyle of Lochalsh and are returned to Inverness by train, so the railway does get their business in a roundabout sort of way.

There are rail excursions involving charter trains from the cruise port of Warnemunde on the Baltic coast to Berlin.

 

[Tobbes]

OBut even if we pretend that the infrastructure could or did allow more, I think there are two, maybe three different concepts emerging here:

a) cruise pax using the bog standard timetabled trains (just with a better service than now)
b) cruise pad being provided with some sort of "Royal Scotsman-like luxury train ride" to .... Kyle of Lochalsh or wherever, where the train itself is definitely part of THE experience.
c) and something in between - perhaps you are suggesting this - a charter train to get a decent number of people to some tourist destination - but where the train is pretty much utility transport, not especially part of THE experience. (although not a negative experience, of course).

The three are all rather different proposals, even if the current infrastructure/pathing limitations could be overcome.

Spot on 70014. I was thinking of a mixture of (b) and (c), possibly steam hauled, with morning or afternoon tea served, so it would be part of the experience. But instead of going on a three plus hour jaunt from Invergordon to Kyle, only going 60 miles up to Golspie and some time in Dornoch/Dornoch castle would be a comfortable 5-6 hour excursion from the ship.

 

[BRX]

There are rail excursions involving charter trains from the cruise port of Warnemunde on the Baltic coast to Berlin.

That's interesting, I looked here
https://www.cruisecritic.co.uk/memberreviews/shore-excursions/excursion/4556/
I see people do tours to Berlin, which is 3 hours each way on the train, although some people are complaining it's too much travelling. The journey from Baltic coast to Berlin is a pretty boring one though!

 

[philthetube]

Spot on 70014. I was thinking of a mixture of (b) and (c), possibly steam hauled, with morning or afternoon tea served, so it would be part of the experience. But instead of going on a three plus hour jaunt from Invergordon to Kyle, only going 60 miles up to Golspie and some time in Dornoch/Dornoch castle would be a comfortable 5-6 hour excursion from the ship.

Exactly what could work, and potentially if the numbers were there one way by train and the other by coach.

A turn up and go service would not get the numbers on its own but that not need prevent some seat being sold to others when required

Basically a rail charter book by the cruise company.

 

[RLBH]

A turn up and go service would not get the numbers on its own but that not need prevent some seat being sold to others when required

Basically a rail charter book by the cruise company.

The big advantage of coaches for the cruise operators is that they can pick up from the dockside, so you're not left with several hundred to a couple of thousand tourists ambling through town at varying rates and with varying degrees of navigational accuracy. Even if they wanted to run rail excursions, they'd probably still lay on coaches to take passengers to and from the station. Unless the attraction at the other end is next to the railway station, they'll want coaches at that end too. So you'd be paying for the coaches all day, as well as potentially a second set of coaches depending on the destination and travel times by road and rail, and there are two extra occasions when you have to marshal passengers.

For rail excursions to appeal, the operator needs to be able to get their passengers straight from the ship to the train, go directly to a rail-served destination, and be confident of getting them back again in time for sailing. There are relatively few cases where that all comes into place, and the Far North isn't one of them. The stations are in the wrong place for the ports, and the service isn't resilient enough to guarantee that the train won't miss the ship sailing.

And all of that is before they've even approached the railway to find out if they can run a train that meets their requirements. I'd be surprised if they even bothered asking the question.

There's nothing stopping a tour operator chartering a train to suit their requirements, except cost. That is, after all, what the Royal Scotsman does. I imagine there probably are companies who could (say) fill a single carriage on the Kyle line a couple of times a week, and it's unfortunate if the railway operates in a way that drives them on to the roads. The ability to proved additional carriages for this kind of traffic would be nice, but is almost certainly impractical for all the usual reasons.