Economic Case for the Far North Line

[gingertom]

A 158 simply isn't up to the job regardless of how much it is "refurbished.

but a 2+5? HST could be, if it was one of the east coast "Plush Tush" variety. All depends on whether the business case stacks up for some charter operator to source, upgrade for PRM-TSI compliance and obtain paths to operate a service in conjunction with cruise companies.

 

[Esker-pades]

Yes it is and you are correct. But it is also a modern railway with good rolling stock, electrified and hasn't been allowed to deteriorate to the level the North Line has, along with many other railways.

Getting cruise passengers onto the train at Invergordon is possible but when they get there the product is in general very poor relative to other operations such as Flam or those in Switzerland. A 158 simply isn't up to the job regardless of how much it is "refurbished" and banging along the jointed track is no great advert either.

Contrast that with Flam....

Would you say the problem is the length of the trains or that 158s are simply awful as a tourist train? If the former, would doubling up services as far as Georgemas before dividing (as they used to do when 156s existed) be reasonable?

 

[Highland37]

I don't think the concept is proven yet and can't be done properly with the current rolling stock. A posh coach is much better than a 158 and even a less posh one is good. The noise and vibration on a 158 is high and the constant hum from the "air conditioning" high also. In short, they are not even close to what cruise passengers are expecting. There is every chance that a cruise passenger has been on the Flam Railway or somewhere in Switzerland.

The loading gauge of course doesn't help but it's no excuse for the awful noise and ambiance. Then there is the track... In short, the railway, along with many railways i the UK, is out of date and in dire need of investment. And a modernising of attitudes.

Much more challenging geography, electrified, powerful locos and 700,000+ passengers. And a forward thinking attitude.

 

[Highland37]

And then this to put our UK railways, even in the Highlands, to shame.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think the concept is proven yet and can't be done properly with the current rolling stock. A posh coach is much better than a 158 and even a less posh one is good. The noise and vibration on a 158 is high and the constant hum from the "air conditioning" high also.

I think Scotland is spoilt in this regard. The Inverness Class 158 interior is to me really nice, and could be made to look very posh indeed with some minor tweaks e.g. a less garish choice of seat fabric colour, nicer lighting[1] and fake leather headrests, and the window view is good too. And I just don't think they are that noisy compared with other DMUs. Add to that the superb ride quality on what is some pretty awful track (the Class 158 bogie must be one of BR's finest hours) I don't *massively* see the issue.

For the WHL and Kyle lines, I would like to see something more Glacier Express-esque, but for the Far North I can't see a problem with the Class 158.

[1] Air is trouncing rail thoroughly with this now, with near enough all new aircraft having fancy LED lighting systems that can do all sort of nice effects.

 

[Bald Rick]

Much more challenging geography, electrified, powerful locos and 700,000+ passengers. And a forward thinking attitude.

If Scotrail were allowed to charge £3 per mile single (as with the Flåm railway), and still attracted the same number of passsngers, I suspect the far north line would have a much better economic case than it does.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Scotrail were allowed to charge £3 per mile single (as with the Flåm railway), and still attracted the same number of passsngers, I suspect the far north line would have a much better economic case than it does.

Looks like 3+2 seating in those coaches too. I'd take an Inverness Class 158 any day.

 

[Bald Rick]

Looks like 3+2 seating in those coaches too. I'd take an Inverness Class 158 any day.

Personally I’d drive, but then everyone’s different!

 

[haggishunter]

I think Scotland is spoilt in this regard. The Inverness Class 158 interior is to me really nice

Well I wouldn't agree with your first part of that sentence, a round trip to Glasgow on the WHL yesterday involved a southbound journey on a well beyond worn out shabby interior, the fold down table at my seat couldn't hold a coffee because it was so far below horizontal. But the 156 I came back on was simply embarrassing, no other word for it, by far and away the worst rail vehicle I've travelled on in my life. It's not that a recent shortage of units has caused it to go a bit longer than desirable between an internal refresh, it was simply a disgrace that has taken many many years beyond when it should have been refitted to get to the state it was in.

Was it an old SPT unit, it had the remains of green fabric on the walls and green fake wood effect tables. Difficult to tell if the material was worn through the base or 3 decades of filth rammed into it. The carpet probably can't be replaced as it's now a SSSI. The reserved seat I was allocated, couldn't be sat on for more than a minute or two it was that wrecked. The toilet had battered panels with big screws driven through badly to hold it in place. Ironically given the state of it that unit did have WiFi!

The lack of toilets compared to the 158s is a major issue on the WHL 156s, and the fact they open into the carriage because they lack the closed of vestibules of the 158s. So while there is some hate for the ScotRail 158s on here be thankful for small mercies! There are infinitely better than some of the alternatives. I'm very glad those visiting the North of Scotland on the Far North and Kyle lines at least have the 158s to travel on, because I was simply embarrassed for my country seeing tourists traveling on that sh!tehole last night.

 

[jimm]

Looks like 3+2 seating in those coaches too. I'd take an Inverness Class 158 any day.

That's 3+2 seating in coaches built to the much more generous Norwegian loading gauge, which allows plenty more width than on UK rolling stock.

 

[Dryce]

Much more challenging geography, electrified, powerful locos and 700,000+ passengers. And a forward thinking attitude.

It's the geography and location that sell the Flam line. The journey distance and frequency also work out for tourists from cruise ships with many going up and back down on the same train. There are also those who take the train part way and cycle back down to Flam.

FNL doesn't cut it as an attraction in the same way - even if the station at Invergordon was adjacent to the cruise terminal.

There are other ports in Norway that are visited regularly by cruise liners that have stations - and if these offer rail excursions to cruise passengers they would probably offer a more realistic model. Andalsnes is one that springs to mind.

 

[jimm]

Cruise passengers are indeed offered trips on the Raumabanen from Andalsnes. Been a while since I used the line but I think the usual way it is done is to put people on the train one way and a coach (allowing time for photo stops, etc) the other, with the change of transport mode made at Bjorli or Lesja stations, which are above the horseshoe curve, bridge and tunnel at Kylling.

As at Flam, these excursions use the regular timetabled trains, with a predictable journey time on a separate branch line. Again the only performance risk is late running by a connecting main line train from Oslo or Trondheim at Dombas, the junction for Raumabanen.

 

[GrimShady]

Well I wouldn't agree with your first part of that sentence, a round trip to Glasgow on the WHL yesterday involved a southbound journey on a well beyond worn out shabby interior, the fold down table at my seat couldn't hold a coffee because it was so far below horizontal. But the 156 I came back on was simply embarrassing, no other word for it, by far and away the worst rail vehicle I've travelled on in my life. It's not that a recent shortage of units has caused it to go a bit longer than desirable between an internal refresh, it was simply a disgrace that has taken many many years beyond when it should have been refitted to get to the state it was in.

Was it an old SPT unit, it had the remains of green fabric on the walls and green fake wood effect tables. Difficult to tell if the material was worn through the base or 3 decades of filth rammed into it. The carpet probably can't be replaced as it's now a SSSI. The reserved seat I was allocated, couldn't be sat on for more than a minute or two it was that wrecked. The toilet had battered panels with big screws driven through badly to hold it in place. Ironically given the state of it that unit did have WiFi!

The lack of toilets compared to the 158s is a major issue on the WHL 156s, and the fact they open into the carriage because they lack the closed of vestibules of the 158s. So while there is some hate for the ScotRail 158s on here be thankful for small mercies! There are infinitely better than some of the alternatives. I'm very glad those visiting the North of Scotland on the Far North and Kyle lines at least have the 158s to travel on, because I was simply embarrassed for my country seeing tourists traveling on that sh!tehole last night.

Well said!

 

[route101]

Do mostly find the Scotrail 156s in better nick than the Northern ones .

 

[Highland37]

They really must be the pits then as when I travelled from Spean Bridge to Glasgow two weeks ago I too was embarrassed at the state of the 156.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do mostly find the Scotrail 156s in better nick than the Northern ones .

The ScotRail operation generally is light years ahead of Northern - including the condition of ALL rolling stock.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The ScotRail operation generally is light years ahead of Northern - including the condition of ALL rolling stock.

I have to say , I agree , spendidly clean and the staff are extremely friendly and efficient.....

 

[deltic08]

Personally I’d drive, but then everyone’s different!

Because you can. There are many who can't drive or don't have a car.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Because you can. There are many who can't drive or don't have a car.

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r.

Including kids and teens like me, we don't have a choice. And not to mention the destroying of the environment by the use of the car.