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Economic Case for the Far North Line

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There will never be driverless vehicles, a quick thought experiment demonstrates their ethical impracticality: in the event of a dangerous situation, what will be the priority of the AI programming? Kill the occupant or kill the pedestrian? As for electric cars and the environment, where on earth do people think all that extra electricity is going to come from?
 
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47802

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There will never be driverless vehicles, a quick thought experiment demonstrates their ethical impracticality: in the event of a dangerous situation, what will be the priority of the AI programming? Kill the occupant or kill the pedestrian? As for electric cars and the environment, where on earth do people think all that extra electricity is going to come from?
The same places as electric trains!
 

Esker-pades

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Your suggestions are very expensive for a route which has 4 trains per day on section you propose to speed up, is that good value for money? Why should we be pulling people out of cars in rural areas, given that electric vehicles can fix the environmental objections, and further down the line autonomous vehicles can fix the carnt drive problem, 21st century solutions instead of 19th century solutions just as the Railways superseded the Canals, the Electric Driverless vehicle can supersede Railways in rural areas.

A better service would result in an increase in patronage. That has been proven the other times on this line where rail services have improved.

Connections to ferries would be better and provide a higher patronage.

Dornoch is a fairly large settlement for the area. That would provide extra patronage.

The biggest problem for people, especially in Wick, is the additional journey time by the train.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Your suggestions are very expensive for a route which has 4 trains per day on section you propose to speed up, is that good value for money? Why should we be pulling people out of cars in rural areas, given that electric vehicles can fix the environmental objections, and further down the line autonomous vehicles can fix the carnt drive problem, 21st century solutions instead of 19th century solutions just as the Railways superseded the Canals, the Electric Driverless vehicle can supersede Railways in rural areas.

Electric vehicles can fix cars' contribution to global-warming (provided the electricity comes from clean sources, which I'm sure eventually will be the case) but they can't fix the issues of congestion or the inherently low capacity of roads, nor can they fix the local quality-of-life issues caused by so many cars clogging up high streets and residential streets etc. I'll grant you that congestion is not going to be so much of an issue in rural areas, but I'm guessing it is an issue in Inverness, where many of these journeys would be heading to or through.
 

Esker-pades

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Electric vehicles can fix cars' contribution to global-warming (provided the electricity comes from clean sources, which I'm sure eventually will be the case) but they can't fix the issues of congestion or the inherently low capacity of roads, nor can they fix the local quality-of-life issues caused by so many cars clogging up high streets and residential streets etc. I'll grant you that congestion is not going to be so much of an issue in rural areas, but I'm guessing it is an issue in Inverness, where many of these journeys would be heading to or through.

The A9 gets very busy very quickly at high-season and peak times.
 

Eric1

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I wouldn't expect driverless vehicles to be common in the highlands anytime soon. I recently stayed in a holiday cottage and the single track B road to get there didn't even feature on my Sat nav. It will be interesting to see how a car designed in California handles a single track road in a Scottish winter, interacting with sheep, cattle and non autonomous vehicles.
 

Esker-pades

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I wouldn't expect driverless vehicles to be common in the highlands anytime soon. I recently stayed in a holiday cottage and the single track B road to get there didn't even feature on my Sat nav. It will be interesting to see how a car designed in California handles a single track road in a Scottish winter, interacting with sheep, cattle and non autonomous vehicles.
It won't. Simply.

Also, one shouldn't forget how prohibitively expensive such cars will be.
 

najaB

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Well if you say so then that's alright then for 1 occasional freight train.
Who operates that freight train and where is its ultimate destination? Answer that question and you'll know why the FNL isn't closing any time soon.
 

47802

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Who operates that freight train and where is its ultimate destination? Answer that question and you'll know why the FNL isn't closing any time soon.

Well even if the line was stay as long as the requirement for that train lasts, you can reduce costs, close the stations, maintain the track at lower speeds, remove the spurs to Wick and Thurso etc.
 

47802

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I wouldn't expect driverless vehicles to be common in the highlands anytime soon. I recently stayed in a holiday cottage and the single track B road to get there didn't even feature on my Sat nav. It will be interesting to see how a car designed in California handles a single track road in a Scottish winter, interacting with sheep, cattle and non autonomous vehicles.

No probably not but it will happen eventually
 

najaB

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...maintain the track at lower speeds...
Given the cargo, I doubt that a reduced maintenance schedule is on the cards.
Well even if the line was stay as long as the requirement for that train lasts, you can reduce costs, close the stations, remove the spurs to Wick and Thurso etc.
Those costs are minescule compared to the total.
 

47802

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A better service would result in an increase in patronage. That has been proven the other times on this line where rail services have improved.

Connections to ferries would be better and provide a higher patronage.

Dornoch is a fairly large settlement for the area. That would provide extra patronage.

The biggest problem for people, especially in Wick, is the additional journey time by the train.

Do you really think that even the loony SNP are going to fork out for a Dornoch Rail Bridge and new alignment to the existing line.
 

47802

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Given the cargo, I doubt that a reduced maintenance schedule is on the cards.
Those costs are minescule compared to the total.

Possibly so but they are at least removed from the passenger budget and franchise, and if they are miniscule that probably indicates the ridiculous amount of money required to run it, in relation to its return, and the last time I followed a flask train to Dungeness it wasn't exactly what you would call high speed.
 

najaB

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Do you really think that even the loony SNP are going to fork out for a Dornoch Rail Bridge...
Nope. But I could see them at least funding a study into the possibility of converting the current road bridge into the originally proposed shared road/rail bridge.
 

47802

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Nope. But I could see them at least funding a study into the possibility of converting the current road bridge into the originally proposed shared road/rail bridge.

I seem to recall that when it was looked at the time the road bridge was going to be built, the biggest cost problem wasn't the bridge but the alignment on the Dornoch side to the existing line..
 

DynamicSpirit

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Do you really think that even the loony SNP are going to fork out for a Dornoch Rail Bridge and new alignment to the existing line.

Given that the 'loony SNP' appear to be currently engaged in a large and incredibly short-sighted road-building program and are pushing for the abolition of air passenger duty in order to encourage air travel, it rather looks to me like the SNP have something like the environmental awareness of a 19th century coal magnate. On that basis, I rather doubt that they would (although to be fair, they have invested in other rail improvements too). But one can hope that at some point in the future, Scotland will have a more sensible Government, and then something like a Dornoch rail bridge would get considered (although even then, I admit the large cost and relatively small numbers of people benefitting may well mean it falls behind lots of other potential rail improvements in more highly populated parts of Scotland)
 

Aictos

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If anyone proposed to close the Far North line they should also close lines such as the West Highland lines, Heart of Wales lines and convert the entire Cardiff Valleys to trams now that ought to save some pennies....

As it is, rail closures is political suicide and the Far North line isn't just a rural line, it's a means of support to communities who live along the line and just because it doesn't seem feasible to run it nowadays doesn't mean that continued investment shouldn't happen as it should.

For a similar view of the FNL, have a look at Alaska and their rural lines which support communities along the line which is what the FNL does quite well.
 

DynamicSpirit

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By the way, on a slightly different note, I just had a closer look at the timetable. Looks to me like every Monday-Saturday, 12 trains depart Inverness in the general direction of Dingwall/etc. And every Monday-Saturday, 14 trains return to Inverness! Uh? How does that work? Well OK, I can guess, there must be some empty workings from Inverness, but - why? That doesn't sound an efficient way of giving a good train service.

As a bonus, every Friday and Saturday night, an extra service leaves Inverness for Tain. But on its return journey, it only gets as far as Muir of Ord. Maybe there's a whole ghostly pile of DMUs at Muir of Ord, and another train gets added every Friday and Saturday, and if someone thought to use them, the national DMU shortage would be over in an instant ;)
 

47802

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If anyone proposed to close the Far North line they should also close lines such as the West Highland lines, Heart of Wales lines and convert the entire Cardiff Valleys to trams now that ought to save some pennies....

As it is, rail closures is political suicide and the Far North line isn't just a rural line, it's a means of support to communities who live along the line and just because it doesn't seem feasible to run it nowadays doesn't mean that continued investment shouldn't happen as it should.

For a similar view of the FNL, have a look at Alaska and their rural lines which support communities along the line which is what the FNL does quite well.
If anyone proposed to close the Far North line they should also close lines such as the West Highland lines, Heart of Wales lines and convert the entire Cardiff Valleys to trams now that ought to save some pennies....

As it is, rail closures is political suicide and the Far North line isn't just a rural line, it's a means of support to communities who live along the line and just because it doesn't seem feasible to run it nowadays doesn't mean that continued investment shouldn't happen as it should.

For a similar view of the FNL, have a look at Alaska and their rural lines which support communities along the line which is what the FNL does quite well.

What a load of bull, some of the Alaska lines support communities which are unreachable by motor vehicle in Winter. By contrast about a year ago I delivered a new Pickup Truck to a couple who lived about 3 miles from Tain. When they asked me how I would get back I told them I needed to get to Dundee to pickup a return vehicle, and would look to catch the bus or train to Inverness and then onwards by train.. They scratched their heads and told me they hardly ever used public transport around their as it was limited and the car was regarded as essential both for them and their neighbours. After looking at the timetables online they decided the best option was to kindly give me a lift back to Inverness.
 

yorksrob

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What a load of bull, some of the Alaska lines support communities which are unreachable by motor vehicle in Winter. By contrast about a year ago I delivered a new Pickup Truck to a couple who lived about 3 miles from Tain. When they asked me how I would get back I told them I needed to get to Dundee to pickup a return vehicle, and would look to catch the bus or train to Inverness and then onwards by train.. They scratched their heads and told me they hardly ever used public transport around their as it was limited and the car was regarded as essential both for them and their neighbours. After looking at the timetables online they decided the best option was to kindly give me a lift back to Inverness.

I smell bull here, !! :)

From the Beeching acolytes
 

Clayton

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What a load of bull, some of the Alaska lines support communities which are unreachable by motor vehicle in Winter. By contrast about a year ago I delivered a new Pickup Truck to a couple who lived about 3 miles from Tain. When they asked me how I would get back I told them I needed to get to Dundee to pickup a return vehicle, and would look to catch the bus or train to Inverness and then onwards by train.. They scratched their heads and told me they hardly ever used public transport around their as it was limited and the car was regarded as essential both for them and their neighbours. After looking at the timetables online they decided the best option was to kindly give me a lift back to Inverness.
Not sure what the point of belonging to a rail forum is if you’re not really into railways. In country areas every household will have a car, but not every household member will have one. Anyway, no one is closing lines, especially not lifelines in remote and underprivileged areas.
 

najaB

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...and if they are miniscule that probably indicates the ridiculous amount of money required to run it...
Nope, just that unstaffed stations are a lot cheaper to run than staffed and that 5 miles of track costs a lot less to maintain than 100 (can't get the actual mileage at the moment).
Looks to me like every Monday-Saturday, 12 trains depart Inverness in the general direction of Dingwall/etc. And every Monday-Saturday, 14 trains return to Inverness! Uh? How does that work?
At least one service splits at Dingwall for Wick and Kyle.
 

lancastrian

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Your suggestions are very expensive for a route which has 4 trains per day on section you propose to speed up, is that good value for money? Why should we be pulling people out of cars in rural areas, given that electric vehicles can fix the environmental objections, and further down the line autonomous vehicles can fix the carnt drive problem, 21st century solutions instead of 19th century solutions just as the Railways superseded the Canals, the Electric Driverless vehicle can supersede Railways in rural areas.

While I agree that the railways superseded the canals, it hasn't meant that the canals have gone away. In fact in the last 50 years more canals have been restored and reopened. Also just because someone has a bright idea, ie: Electric Driverless Vehicles (EDV), doesn't mean that it is a workable idea. This group of deluded idiots we call our national Government, cancelled a number of very needed Electrification, on the basis that Bi-modes could do it as just as easily. About the same time they stated it was their intention to scrap ALL Diesel Vehicles by 2040. Not only have you not consider the enormous cost of placing "charging points" for these EDV's all over the country, but would any future Government consider it to be viable to do such in the far north of Scotland, where there aren't enough people to make is cost effective. The same argument you are using against the keeping of the FNL. I visit the North of Scotland, although not that far north, Morayshire. I visit 1/2 times a year. I either drive, taking 2 days, as the A9 is a real pain. Or I catch the train, 1 day. While there I use the train to both Inverness and Aberdeen, plus a few shorter journeys. Having driven the roads up in Scotland, I certainly wouldn't want to be at the mercy of an EDV.
 

snowball

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About the same time they stated it was their intention to scrap ALL Diesel Vehicles by 2040.
They haven't said that at all. They've said no new pure diesel or petrol cars or vans after 2040.

Doesn't cover buses and HGVs.
Doesn't require scrapping of existing vehicles already in use by 2040.
Doesn't cover hybrid vehicles.
 

mmh

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What a load of bull, some of the Alaska lines support communities which are unreachable by motor vehicle in Winter. By contrast about a year ago I delivered a new Pickup Truck to a couple who lived about 3 miles from Tain. When they asked me how I would get back I told them I needed to get to Dundee to pickup a return vehicle, and would look to catch the bus or train to Inverness and then onwards by train.. They scratched their heads and told me they hardly ever used public transport around their as it was limited and the car was regarded as essential both for them and their neighbours. After looking at the timetables online they decided the best option was to kindly give me a lift back to Inverness.

No you didn't. You delivered a car without any idea how you'd get back? Didn't happen. Of course they rely on their cars, you don't need a story to make that believable.
 

47802

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No you didn't. You delivered a car without any idea how you'd get back? Didn't happen. Of course they rely on their cars, you don't need a story to make that believable.

I don't take kindly to being called a Liar, as at the time I was a trade plate driver that what frequently happens and if no public transport is available at your drop off then you hope that the customer will give you a lift to a point you can get public transport or try getting a lift from the road side by showing your trade plate, although in Scotland the Police are generally not keen on that, or get a Taxi in some circumstances obviously you do try and look beforehand as to what is available, and you will usually find most customers will give you lift to a point where you can catch a bus or a train in remote areas.

Anyway the point is most people in that area and many other more remote areas will not relay on public transport because it is too limited or non existent for the vast majority or journeys they need to make, and trying to make out the line is comparable with Alaska is utterly ridiculous. and the reality is large parts of Scotland are no where near a Rail Station.

When ever someone suggests a line might be closed we start trotting out this business about social need as if we are in the 1950's, and if we are serious about that then perhaps we need an integrated bus service as well as train service, since there are parts of the country which have neither a rail service or a bus service, but at the same time it might be an opportunity to get rid of some low usage expensive to run rural lines, and in the longer term perhaps technology such as a driverless vehicle can make the need for rural buses and rural train services redundant.
 
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47802

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While I agree that the railways superseded the canals, it hasn't meant that the canals have gone away. In fact in the last 50 years more canals have been restored and reopened. Also just because someone has a bright idea, ie: Electric Driverless Vehicles (EDV), doesn't mean that it is a workable idea. This group of deluded idiots we call our national Government, cancelled a number of very needed Electrification, on the basis that Bi-modes could do it as just as easily. About the same time they stated it was their intention to scrap ALL Diesel Vehicles by 2040. Not only have you not consider the enormous cost of placing "charging points" for these EDV's all over the country, but would any future Government consider it to be viable to do such in the far north of Scotland, where there aren't enough people to make is cost effective. The same argument you are using against the keeping of the FNL. I visit the North of Scotland, although not that far north, Morayshire. I visit 1/2 times a year. I either drive, taking 2 days, as the A9 is a real pain. Or I catch the train, 1 day. While there I use the train to both Inverness and Aberdeen, plus a few shorter journeys. Having driven the roads up in Scotland, I certainly wouldn't want to be at the mercy of an EDV.

Both Shell and BP have bought charging companies and are starting to install them in Petrol Stations, Electric Vehicles are coming and in a big way in the next 10 years
 
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Aictos

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Both Shell and BP have bought charging companies and are starting to install them in Petrol Stations, Electric Vehicles are coming and in a big way in the next 10 years

However they are still far more expensive then basic Petrol or Diesel models and until that changes, Electric vehicles won't make much of a difference apart from maybe taxis or buses in city centres.

As to driverless vehicles, the concept might work on motorways and town centres etc but in rural areas such as Scottish Highlands and Welsh Valleys I doubt it.

As to rubbishing people because they oppose closures due to a social need let me remind you of the Transport Act 1968 Section 39 which introduced the first Government subsidies for railways which were unremunerative for British Rail but deemed socially necessary.

Which I believe the Far North Line meets all 3 requirements and so is still in use today and why it isn't going to be closed anytime soon.

Providing three conditions were met, a subsidy could be granted to the running of the line which were:

1. The line was unremunerative.
2. It is desirable for social or economic reasons for the passenger services to continue
3. It is financially unreasonable to expect British Rail to provide those services without a grant.

Unless you like to repeal such act, we will still see lines supported by it.
 
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