Edinburgh Gateway - A White Elephant ?

[InOban]

But is it busy or just carrying fresh air?

I'm not aware that it's being subsidised by Edinburgh airport, so I assume that it's profitable. Mind you, a coach doesn't need to be full to cover its costs.

 

[InOban]

The latest plans from the airport involve building across the secondary (the original)runway, almost as far as the railway.....

 

[najaB]

The latest plans from the airport involve building across the secondary (the original)runway, almost as far as the railway.....

On first glance reducing runway capacity seems almost Beeching-esque but it is very rare that the second runway sees any use these days.

 

[Altnabreac]

Assume that means electrifying up to the Forth Bridge at the same time - do you know what that section is like in terms of structures needing cleared?


Indeed - if you aren't going to create an underground station and the chord is delayed, then you might as well get on with building the station anyway so people can make use of it in the meantime.

You're looking at around 19 bridges on that section. Only 13 of them are likely to be needed for just the Dalmeny Chord electrification

7 Bridges on the east (South Gyle) section

Ladywell Avenue - rebuild
B701 - should be ok
South Gyle Road - rebuild
A8 Glasgow Road - should be ok
Meadowfield Farm bridge - should be ok
Turnhouse Road - rebuild
Lennymuir - rebuild

6 bridges on the west (Winchburgh) section

Armours - should be ok
M9 - should be ok
Swineburn - should be ok
Humbie Quarry - might be ok?
Humbie - might be ok?
M90 / M9 Spur overbridge - should be ok

6 extra bridges to the north if you electrify to Dalmeny Station as well.

Dolphinton - rebuild
Dalmeny South A90 - should be ok
Dalmeny North - should be ok
Dalmeny Station Footbridge - rebuild
Craigbrae - might be ok?
Almond Hill - might be ok?

While there might be some marginal value in electrifying as far as Dalmeny station for diversions / overrun etc given it will likely require 2 extra bridge rebuilds I'm not sure if it would be included in an initial phase.

 

[och aye]

Options for a heavy rail link to the airport were discussed in 2007 when EARL was cancelled. This website presented a couple of options that were designed to meet the objections that the Scottish Government put forward at the time:

http://www.eisl.org.uk

Very interesting.

Hopefully they Dalmeny chord will be built after/the same time as Alloa and Stirling are wired up.

 

[Altnabreac]

Very interesting.

Hopefully they Dalmeny chord will be built after/the same time as Alloa and Stirling are wired up.

Alloa and Sirling electrification are committed schemes with a completion date of December 2018.

Dalmeny Chord is an unconfirmed option for CP6 / Post 2019.

So there is no chance of at the same time but hopefully it will happen not too far into the future.

 

[EISL]

Dalmeny Chord is an unconfirmed option for CP6 / Post 2019.

So there is no chance of at the same time but hopefully it will happen not too far into the future.

Building the Dalmeny Chord will pretty much kill off any chance of a proper on-airport station for Edinburgh. The ideas set out in the EISL paper, and the original EARL proposals, all had an airport station. They also proposed track layouts that more than fulfilled the requirements of the Dalmeny chord, so it is either Dalmeny Chord or a full-blown EISL / EARL resurrection.

An airport station need not be right on the tarmac but it does need to look and feel like the passenger has arrived at the airport campus. Birmingham International and Gatwick are good examples. The shuttles there to the airport (to the North terminal at Gatwick) are branded as the airport so passengers feel they have arrived at the airport when they get off the train and know that they will not need to go out into the rain again, or pay any more fares, before they reach their aircraft, even though they might have some distance to travel on shuttles within the airport.

Edinburgh Gateway gives no sense at all of being near the airport and has no airport ambience. Thus travellers will regard it as an interchange on their way to the airport, not as the airport station.

It is probably now too hopeful to wish for an on-airport station in Edinburgh, but, if that idea is to be kept alive, building the Dalmeny Chord will not help it. Unless Edinburgh Airport were to propose and finance building a new terminal next to Edinburgh Gateway station, on the old 12/30 runway, I don't see that station ever becoming part of the airport infrastructure.

 

[NotATrainspott]

You're looking at around 19 bridges on that section. Only 13 of them are likely to be needed for just the Dalmeny Chord electrification

7 Bridges on the east (South Gyle) section

Ladywell Avenue - rebuild
B701 - should be ok
South Gyle Road - rebuild
A8 Glasgow Road - should be ok
Meadowfield Farm bridge - should be ok
Turnhouse Road - rebuild
Lennymuir - rebuild

6 bridges on the west (Winchburgh) section

Armours - should be ok
M9 - should be ok
Swineburn - should be ok
Humbie Quarry - might be ok?
Humbie - might be ok?
M90 / M9 Spur overbridge - should be ok

6 extra bridges to the north if you electrify to Dalmeny Station as well.

Dolphinton - rebuild
Dalmeny South A90 - should be ok
Dalmeny North - should be ok
Dalmeny Station Footbridge - rebuild
Craigbrae - might be ok?
Almond Hill - might be ok?

While there might be some marginal value in electrifying as far as Dalmeny station for diversions / overrun etc given it will likely require 2 extra bridge rebuilds I'm not sure if it would be included in an initial phase.

The A8 Glasgow Road bridge OHLE clearance project was included with the construction of the new station. Makes sense, given that platform lowering would be absurd at a brand new £41m station.

Wiring up Dalmeny would help with the electric services which terminate at Haymarket from the east. They could run to the Gateway instead and then have an electrified siding to turn back in. Depending on what else happens, it might not be as easy to turn trains back where the north line wires currently run out near the depot.

 

[route:oxford]

And this is on a day where Gogarburn is empty - they follow the UK Bank Holidays there.

Do you mean the English Bank Holidays?

There's still a lot of work goes on on BH these days - the Internet never sleeps.

 

[InOban]

To educate our English friends. Scottish banks are closed on English bank holidays. But nothing else is. As with 'Wakes weeks' or 'Trades holidays' different towns have general public holidays on different days. For example,this year the Edinburgh September holiday will be on the third Monday, ie 18th, while Glasgow is a week later. We're sensible up here.

 

[El Blanco]

Do you mean the English Bank Holidays?

There's still a lot of work goes on on BH these days - the Internet never sleeps.

Fair point - perhaps I should have said a UK wide Bank Holiday with the exception of Scotland.

It still doesn't alter my point though. There are between 3,000 and 5,000 staff at RBS Gogarburn per day. A proportion of those use Edinburgh Gateway to get to site. And the number of staff at RBS Gogarburn on Monday would have been in the 10's as RBS observed this Bank Holiday.

 

[Butts]

To educate our English friends. Scottish banks are closed on English bank holidays. But nothing else is. As with 'Wakes weeks' or 'Trades holidays' different towns have general public holidays on different days. For example,this year the Edinburgh September holiday will be on the third Monday, ie 18th, while Glasgow is a week later. We're sensible up here.

What a load of tosh

The St Andrews Day Bank Holiday (Nov 30th or nearest Mon if a sat or sun) is not a proper Bank Holiday. The only people who get the day off (suprisingly) are Scottish Government Staff. I have never been paid double bubble for working it. It's a total joke and everything is open as normal. Also the Edinburgh and Glasgow holidays you mention are not proper Bank Holidays either worked on both in the two Cities and they are insignificant and hardly observed - no double bubble !!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Dalmeny station footbridge would be I think perhaps an easy one to obtain part funding for given the tourist potential of the already moneyed South Queensferry area so iether ramps or lifts and a general sprucing up of wating area/booking office would be welcomed to the point where CEC might chip in along with others

 

[Altnabreac]

Dalmeny station footbridge would be I think perhaps an easy one to obtain part funding for given the tourist potential of the already moneyed South Queensferry area so iether ramps or lifts and a general sprucing up of wating area/booking office would be welcomed to the point where CEC might chip in along with others

There are ramps to both sides from the road below so with a bit of DDA compliance and a pedestrian crossing you might be able to remove the footbridge completely.

There will be work to connect the station to the new bridge walk experience so there is potential to improve access at the same time.

 

[InOban]

What a load of tosh

The St Andrews Day Bank Holiday (Nov 30th or nearest Mon if a sat or sun) is not a proper Bank Holiday. The only people who get the day off (suprisingly) are Scottish Government Staff. I have never been paid double bubble for working it. It's a total joke and everything is open as normal. Also the Edinburgh and Glasgow holidays you mention are not proper Bank Holidays either worked on both in the two Cities and they are insignificant and hardly observed - no double bubble !!

I think you'll find that much of Glasgow is on holiday. We will have no post, and indeed NR are closing the lines to the west that weekend, presumably using their standard reason that fewer people wish to travel.

 

[railjock]

Building the Dalmeny Chord will pretty much kill off any chance of a proper on-airport station for Edinburgh. The ideas set out in the EISL paper, and the original EARL proposals, all had an airport station. They also proposed track layouts that more than fulfilled the requirements of the Dalmeny chord, so it is either Dalmeny Chord or a full-blown EISL / EARL resurrection.

An airport station need not be right on the tarmac but it does need to look and feel like the passenger has arrived at the airport campus. Birmingham International and Gatwick are good examples. The shuttles there to the airport (to the North terminal at Gatwick) are branded as the airport so passengers feel they have arrived at the airport when they get off the train and know that they will not need to go out into the rain again, or pay any more fares, before they reach their aircraft, even though they might have some distance to travel on shuttles within the airport.

Edinburgh Gateway gives no sense at all of being near the airport and has no airport ambience. Thus travellers will regard it as an interchange on their way to the airport, not as the airport station.

It is probably now too hopeful to wish for an on-airport station in Edinburgh, but, if that idea is to be kept alive, building the Dalmeny Chord will not help it. Unless Edinburgh Airport were to propose and finance building a new terminal next to Edinburgh Gateway station, on the old 12/30 runway, I don't see that station ever becoming part of the airport infrastructure.

Presumably this is why it's called Edinburgh Gateway rather than Edinburgh Airport.

 

[cf111]

I've used Gateway regularly when coming from Inverness to Edinburgh for work because I normally stay at Edinburgh Park and it's quicker to get off the train there and get the tram than it is to do the same from Haymarket. I have always been one of about 3 people getting off and apart from one occasion the only person changing onto the tram in either direction, nobody ever seems to board the train.

So useful for me but not well used by many in my limited experience!

 

[NSEFAN]

I recently spoke to a guard on Scotrail who suggested that South Gyle could be closed, now that Edinburgh Gateway is open. The rationale being that they are very close to each other, and Edinburgh Gateway is better for revenue protection compared to South Gyle. Of course, the low usage figures don't help to justify this, but then if Gyle were to close then perhaps Gateway would see more passengers?

 

[Taunton]

I have always been one of about 3 people getting off

Sounds like a Scottish equivalent to Ebbsfleet on Eurostar then!

 

[NotATrainspott]

I recently spoke to a guard on Scotrail who suggested that South Gyle could be closed, now that Edinburgh Gateway is open. The rationale being that they are very close to each other, and Edinburgh Gateway is better for revenue protection compared to South Gyle. Of course, the low usage figures don't help to justify this, but then if Gyle were to close then perhaps Gateway would see more passengers?

Hasn't South Gyle gone down to 2tph each way? If it were to be closed, it should be slowly wound down so that everyone else has a chance to adjust. For travel into the city centre the tram provides an alternative option. The people getting off there for Edinburgh Park shouldn't be much more worse off getting off at the Gateway. When things start getting built at the IBG, the number of people for whom the Gateway is a better station will increase proportionately.

 

[dk1]

Give it time & similar to Cambridge North it will be a catalyst to future development nearby & travel patterns. To be fair £41m isn't that much in the grand scheme of transportation.

 

[MarkyT]

An airport station need not be right on the tarmac but it does need to look and feel like the passenger has arrived at the airport campus. Birmingham International and Gatwick are good examples. The shuttles there to the airport (to the North terminal at Gatwick) are branded as the airport so passengers feel they have arrived at the airport when they get off the train and know that they will not need to go out into the rain again, or pay any more fares, before they reach their aircraft, even though they might have some distance to travel on shuttles within the airport.

Edinburgh Gateway gives no sense at all of being near the airport and has no airport ambience. Thus travellers will regard it as an interchange on their way to the airport, not as the airport station.

I agree perhaps Gateway should be at least partly branded as part of the airport and importantly the link to the main terminal must be of a frequent, almost 'on demand' nature and importantly a free ride, like the Gatwick and Birmingham examples if people are going to feel as if they're at a remote airport terminal. A couple of dedicated airport branded trams shuttling back and forth without any intermediate stops might do it. The tram stops could be airport branded to reinforce the image.

 

[lewisdicks]

Hasn't South Gyle gone down to 2tph each way? If it were to be closed, it should be slowly wound down so that everyone else has a chance to adjust. For travel into the city centre the tram provides an alternative option. The people getting off there for Edinburgh Park shouldn't be much more worse off getting off at the Gateway. When things start getting built at the IBG, the number of people for whom the Gateway is a better station will increase proportionately.

Seriously hoping this isn't considered. I live a two minute walk away from South Gyle station and it is so convenient for me to use to get to Haymarket/Waverley (a return is £1.85 with a 16-25 railcard, even without the railcard it's a cheaper option than by bus/tram at £3.20). For buses/trams you usually have to walk 15 minutes for a bus/tram stop elsewhere.

Whilst I am still to try out Gateway, it would mean a 25 minute walk from where I live if South Gyle closed (realistically Edinburgh Park is closer). Also there's usually a regular shuttle bus from the station to the business park and having used this myself it's very popular for those travelling to Fife and even the peak services to Tweedbank.

Despite the timetable frequency reduced to 2tph from 4, it's still very popular for residents in South Gyle and nearby Costorphine. To me, there doesn't seem to be much of a case to close it despite the opening of Gateway.

 

[QueensCurve]

Edinburgh Gateway numbers are significantly lower than expected. The 500,000 estimate did seem a bit high although I thought it would have been higher than what it currently is.

And it also appears to have cost significantly more than was planned.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...tracts-third-of-expected-passengers-1-4543692

Correct me if I am wrong, but at the time it was planned it was intended that the Dalmeny chord would be built and Edinburgh Gateway could have been served by trains on the Edinburgh to Glasgow main line. That did not happen.

On the many journeys in which I passed what would become the site of the station, I thought that a short heavy rail spur to the airport would have been desirable and easily built.

There was then the "necessary but not doable" proposal for the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link. Sadly when this idea collapsed, the tram system was conceived as the replacement rather than a simple heavy rail spur.

The problems which have afflicted the tram scheme are of course well known. Edinburgh Gateway is now needed to connect into trams to and from the airport.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Correct me if I am wrong, but at the time it was planned it was intended that the Dalmeny chord would be built and Edinburgh Gateway could have been served by trains on the Edinburgh to Glasgow main line. That did not happen.

On the many journeys in which I passed what would become the site of the station, I thought that a short heavy rail spur to the airport would have been desirable and easily built.

There was then the "necessary but not doable" proposal for the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link. Sadly when this idea collapsed, the tram system was conceived as the replacement rather than a simple heavy rail spur.

The problems which have afflicted the tram scheme are of course well known. Edinburgh Gateway is now needed to connect into trams to and from the airport.

A heavy rail spur was considered as an option for EARL originally. It was rejected in favour of the tunnel because it could only allow a shuttle service to run into the city centre and to the relatively unpopulated part of Scotland east of Edinburgh. The tunnel meant that no additional services would need to be run, and basically everywhere in Scotland with a train link to Edinburgh would get a direct train to the airport too. Unfortunately the major technical problem for the tunnel was that the Scottish rail network isn't sufficiently electrified, so there would be significant compromises and extra costs compared to most airport tunnels.

Most of the complaints about the tram are rooted in an obsession with end-to-end journey times. A train link would be faster, sure, but it wouldn't take people as close to where they actually want to go. When most of the employment growth in Edinburgh is forecast to be outside of the normal city centre zone within walking distance of Haymarket and Waverley, the long-term value of building a really fast link to the airport isn't really there. The case for direct rail services from further afield (like Dundee) is much more reasonable, but it just wasn't enough to justify the cost of continuing with the scheme. Remember that airport links are used only a couple of times a year by mere mortals, while electrification and other slightly less sexy improvements are used every day by everyone.

 

[najaB]

On the many journeys in which I passed what would become the site of the station, I thought that a short heavy rail spur to the airport would have been desirable and easily built.

Which line would you put the spur onto, and what direction would it face?

 

[47271]

Most of the complaints about the tram are rooted in an obsession with end-to-end journey times.

Most of the complaints about the tram in this context now are rooted in a failure to promote the link from Gateway, obscure ticketing arrangements and, worst of all, when you finally do realise it's there and learn how to use it, the shocking add-on cost charged to get from the railway station to the airport.

 

[InOban]

It seems quite common to charge premium fares into airports, eg Heathrow and Gatwick expresses, and the 100 Airlink bus, and the 200 route both charge a premium fare. Does the premium revenue go to the airport? After all, the taxis pay a premium to access the airport.

 

[MarkyT]

Most of the complaints about the tram in this context now are rooted in a failure to promote the link from Gateway, obscure ticketing arrangements and, worst of all, when you finally do realise it's there and learn how to use it, the shocking add-on cost charged to get from the railway station to the airport.

Precisely. It should be a free shuttle like any other inter-terminal or satellite gate link at an airport, and fully branded as such. Then the public might start perceiving the rail station as an intrinsic part of the airport. Of course whatever an airport operator may say in public, I suspect most have little interest in significant mode shift to rail for surface access as they make so much from parking, especially shorter term business oriented provision.

 

[Failed Unit]

Seriously hoping this isn't considered. I live a two minute walk away from South Gyle station and it is so convenient for me to use to get to Haymarket/Waverley (a return is £1.85 with a 16-25 railcard, even without the railcard it's a cheaper option than by bus/tram at £3.20). For buses/trams you usually have to walk 15 minutes for a bus/tram stop elsewhere.

Whilst I am still to try out Gateway, it would mean a 25 minute walk from where I live if South Gyle closed (realistically Edinburgh Park is closer). Also there's usually a regular shuttle bus from the station to the business park and having used this myself it's very popular for those travelling to Fife and even the peak services to Tweedbank.

Despite the timetable frequency reduced to 2tph from 4, it's still very popular for residents in South Gyle and nearby Costorphine. To me, there doesn't seem to be much of a case to close it despite the opening of Gateway.

Did the frequency reduction have much impact. When I used it the frequency between trains was something like.

Train -> 5 mins -> Train -> 25 mins - Train and repeat.

Going to 2 per hour is about every 30 mins now so longest wait isn't much worse?