Edinburgh To Glasgow line: Future trains?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by HellaEllie, 31 May 2015.

  1. HellaEllie

    HellaEllie Member

    Messages:
    76
    Joined:
    31 May 2015
    Location:
    Falkirk :D
    Forgive me if this may have been answered already but it's been something i've been curious about :3.

    Since i will be commuting a lot on this line To and from college (glasgow) and i like to trainwatch on this line too, I've been wondering. I've heard a lot of talk about how the AT200 trains will replace the turbostar/class 170 trains around 2017-2018, but i've also heard that the 170's maybe will be replaced by the class 380's too,
    so will we have a sort of mix of AT200's and 380's on the line in the future or maybe just AT200's or a mix of AT200's 380's 334's and maybe the odd 322?.

    I'd like a mix myself :D, i'm just going to be sad when the 158's are gone, I tend to find them more pleasant than the 170's.

    also im wondering if i might see more 92's 91's and 90's working the freight, east coast and sleeper's?

    again sorry if this is very "noobish" to ask :3, It's just been a curious question in my head.
     
  2. D365

    D365 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,163
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    You definitely won't be seeing any 322s ;) It's seven Class 321s which are to be cascaded from London Midland.

    In regards to variety in regular service you'll have to wait to find out about fleet allocations, I imagine. After all, when the Class 380 was introduced it caused quite the shuffle.

    East Coast traffic will probably continue to use the Edinburgh-Carstairs line.
     
  3. 47802

    47802 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,747
    Joined:
    8 Oct 2013
    One would imagine that once electrified that Glasgow - Edinburgh, as a primary route would be mainly AT200.
     
  4. NotATrainspott

    NotATrainspott Established Member

    Messages:
    2,392
    Joined:
    2 Feb 2013
    To the best of my knowledge, the plan for the seven 321s is for them to be reduced to three cars and then combined into the standard 318/320 fleet for use on North Clyde and Argyll line services. The 321s are necessary because the franchise requires a limited number of 7x23m length electric services between Edinburgh and Glasgow via Falkirk High before the end of 2016, and the new AT200s will not be delivered in time. As a result, a number of Class 380s will be used instead, and these will be freed up from other services around the south side either directly or through a cascade by the new 321s. Once the new AT200s arrive there were enough ordered to run all the newly-electrified services out of Queen Street High Level, and as they will be maintained at Edinburgh it would be unlikely that they would take on Class 380 duties, and vice-versa. Since the 314s will be going off-lease in 2019, and many of their routes are already run by 380s, it would make sense for all the 380s to be concentrated on West of Scotland services and for the runs to Edinburgh via Carstairs and Shotts to be done by the new AT200s.
     
  5. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

    Messages:
    7,157
    Joined:
    14 Nov 2011
    Location:
    Caerphilly
    What about the 380s that work North Berwick
     
  6. D365

    D365 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,163
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    As far as I've heard the AT200 will take over all electric stops east of Edinburgh. Which means they'll be in close company with their IEP big brothers :D
     
  7. ADRboy

    ADRboy Member

    Messages:
    160
    Joined:
    13 Jul 2008
    E&G will be using the 24x4 car AT200s when work is complete and all the trains have arrived.

    380's will be used for some services from Dec 2016 with the majority still 170's.
     
  8. SC318250

    SC318250 Member

    Messages:
    190
    Joined:
    4 Jun 2011
    I have a feeling that the Class 318 will move back to Glasgow Central high level services, and operating Glasgow Central to Newton/Neilston/Cathcart Circle/Paisley Canal/Lanark services.
    314 leave the Scotrail fleet, with 380 fleet operarting Ayrshire/Inverclyde and possibly a few Cathcart or Lanark turns. In fact the Lanarks might go to all 4 car 380 operation

    The 22 Class 322 and 7 Class 321, which I would leave as 4 cars, would only need a few 334 diagrams in peaks to cover the diagrams of the 318 on the argyle/north electrics, as there are certainly a few low mileage diagrams
     
  9. mbreckers

    mbreckers Member

    Messages:
    364
    Joined:
    20 Jan 2015
    But doesn't the main Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh route require a first class section as part of the franchise agreement? Class 380's don't have this
     
  10. hulabaloo

    hulabaloo Member

    Messages:
    134
    Joined:
    5 Apr 2015
    They could do what Southeastern do on their 375s and just put a first class antimacassar on a small selection of their normal seats. Then let anyone sit there regardless of what ticket they hold.
     
  11. ADRboy

    ADRboy Member

    Messages:
    160
    Joined:
    13 Jul 2008
    I very much doubt they'd get away with that, mind it's Transport Scotland they're dealing with in Scotland.

    AT200 4 cars will have First class areas anyway.
     
  12. HellaEllie

    HellaEllie Member

    Messages:
    76
    Joined:
    31 May 2015
    Location:
    Falkirk :D
    Also for the line from edinburgh to stirling (falkirk grahamston line), Will the 158's be replaced with the redundant 170's? then what will happen to the old 158's and 170's once that line is electrified?, maybe put on the oban route with the 155's headed for storage/scrap?

    (again sorry i'm not very educated on plans for the rolling stock :"), i'm very new to the ins and outs of the trains, i'm just a casual watcher at the end of the day xD)

    I know apparently they plan on using the HST's for the Aberdeen/Long distance routes around scotland with new carriages? though i was wondering if it would have been better to just get something like a 220/221 or a 180 or a or get another 68 like they have on the fife circle route?.

    again, forgive me :")
     
    Last edited: 11 Jun 2015
  13. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    8,787
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    Ten class 156 units will be returned to the owning company as of December 2018, the remaining 38 units will remain with Scotrail for the duration of the current franchise. The class 156s that remain will be refurbished by December 2017 and utilised on Glasgow & South Western services between Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Ayr, Stranrear and Carlisle.

    Eight class 158s will also go off lease from 31st December 2018. Of the 40 units remaining with Scotrail, 25 will continue to work the North Highland lines from Inverness as at present. The remaining 15 will be refurbished to a similar standard to fulfil Scotrail's "Scenic Trains" requirement by December 2017, and will be allocated to the Borders line to Tweedbank and the West Highland lines to Oban/Fort William/Mallaig, replacing class 156s on the latter.

    Scotrail will retain 21 class 170 units for the duration of the franchise to work outer suburban services in the Central Belt and Fife. Of the remainder, the five remaining Eversholt Rail owned class 170s will leave the Scotrail franchise by 31/03/2018 and go to Southern for conversion to 171s. A further 25 class 170/4 units will go off lease by June 2018, and the four 170/3 units will go off lease by June 2019.

    Scotrail will begin to introduce HSTs in 2+4 and 2+5 formations on long distance services between Edinburgh/Glasgow and Aberdeen/Inverness (and between Aberdeen and Inverness) from December 2018. Fourteen 2+4 and thirteen 2+5 formations are initially expected to be formed, with one less of each expected from December 2022 to allow two longer 2+6 formations to be created. The carriages will not be new, they will be the existing mark 3 carriages used in the HST rakes, but heavily refurbished to include powered doors, passenger information screens, disabled accessible toilets and other features.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jun 2015
  14. SkinnyDave

    SkinnyDave Established Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    Joined:
    11 Mar 2012
    So the Perth to Edinburgh/Glasgow services will become 170 operated replacing 158s? and Dundee to Edinburgh/Glasgow will remain 170s as they are today?
     
  15. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

    Messages:
    4,221
    Joined:
    1 Nov 2008
    The 158s and 170s are pretty much interchangeable in the Central Belt aren't they?
     
  16. SkinnyDave

    SkinnyDave Established Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    Joined:
    11 Mar 2012
    I know the vast majority of Perth to Edinburgh are usually 2 or 4 car 158 sets so would have thought 158 will disapear from Perth entirely.
    There is a point does anyone know where Perth will stable the HSTs when they eventually arrive?
     
    Last edited: 11 Jun 2015
  17. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,372
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    A better question is if Perth will stable any. Do any Inverness services start from Perth currently? There's the 0605 ECS movement to Blair Atholl but I thought that operated southwards as an extension of an Edinburgh service.
     
  18. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

    Messages:
    9,041
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2008
    That requires 38 156s?!
     
  19. SkinnyDave

    SkinnyDave Established Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    Joined:
    11 Mar 2012
    True not at the moment but did I read in 2019 there will be an hourly service to Inverness extending to either Glasgow and Edinburgh will that mean some would be kept at Perth.
    I thought I read part of route strategy document that they were looking at better stabling facilities at Perth but bot sure if that was just refurbishing existing Carriage Sidings
     
  20. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,372
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    Those are some pretty long routes, and Abellio have committed to increasing service levels.
     
  21. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

    Messages:
    9,041
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2008
    Oh I've not kept up to date so I didn't realise they were increasing train lengths/frequencies. Thanks :)
     
  22. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

    Messages:
    4,221
    Joined:
    1 Nov 2008
    The Chieftain does occasionally stable at Perth when there are issues on the Highland Mainline - so it must have a suitable power-supply. What it doesn't (seem to) have is a working printer for the seat reservations...
     
  23. me123

    me123 Established Member

    Messages:
    8,521
    Joined:
    9 Jul 2007
    Location:
    Clwyd
    Could it be that some 156s will also be staying to operate West Highland Services? That seems to be a gap that's not been addressed (AIUI, 158s aren't cleared up that way).
     
  24. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

    Messages:
    9,041
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2008
    In the post from sprinterguy that I quoted its said that the 15 158s staying 'south' will be used on the WHL and the Borders, but surely Borders + WHL can't need 15 units whilst the Glasgow - Carlisle route needs 38? So 156s also staying on the WHL does make sense to me (although I have a complete lack of local knowledge so I could be talking out of my arse!)
     
  25. me123

    me123 Established Member

    Messages:
    8,521
    Joined:
    9 Jul 2007
    Location:
    Clwyd
    D'Oh! Need to learn to read. :oops:

    38 does seem a lot, but there's certainly scope to increase service on those lines. An hourly service between Glasgow and Carlisle could be justified, and would need a reasonable number of trains over and above the existing half hourly Kilmarnock runs and hourly Kilmarnock-Ayr-South West service that I think is coming. As mentioned already, they're long journeys. There's also the need for the East Kilbride services in the short-medium term, although there are plans to electrify that line.

    I think it's very possible that, as electrification extends, the number of 156s needed will decrease.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jun 2015
  26. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

    Messages:
    9,041
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2008
    It wasn't just that 38 seemed a lot for those, it was also the 15 158s doesn't sound a lot to cover the WHL and the Borders that made me question it. But as you and najaB pointed out, the improvements will increase the number of 156s required on the Glasgow - Carlisle route :)
     
  27. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,372
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    Don't forget, it's actually Glasgow-Newcastle (via Carlisle), and they also will cover the Glasgow-Stranraer route.
     
  28. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    8,787
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    The information I have posted has been sourced from the redacted version of the Scotrail Franchise Agreement. From this, it seems to clearly suggest that class 158s will be operating the West Highland line. On page 366, it states that 40 class 158 units make up the Scenic Train Rolling Stock requirement. The Scenic Train routes are defined as "the West Highland Line to Oban/Fort William and the Kyle line and will be required to operate over those routes and other routes which are diversionary routes or provide access to depots...Other routes may be necessary for the delivery, maintenance and repair of the units as specified by the franchisee." Interestingly, the Far North lines are not mentioned specifically but as their operation is tied in so closely with the Kyle line it is unlikely that their method of operation will change. Reference to the Borders railway being included came from some of the better informed posters on this forum.

    As for the class 156s, while the number of units that are being retained is made clear on page 21, their proposed allocation is less clear: We know that refurbished class 156s are proposed for the Glasgow to Kilmarnock/Ayr/Stranrear/Carlisle services from a trade press presentation last October made public, but their use falls under the general heading of "Other rolling stock" in the franchise agreement, so I suspect they might be used more widely wherever electrification has not yet reached and services are not covered by the "Intercity" or "Scenic Train" initiatives. I too would be astonished if the Glasgow & South Western services could use up anywhere near 38 units (35 diagrammed for service from December 2018, apparently).
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Glasgow to Newcastle is a very infrequent service though and the extension east of Carlisle can hardly eat up many additional units.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jun 2015
  29. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,372
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    I thought that Abellio had said they have 'ambitions' of increasing service on this route?
     
  30. 158722

    158722 Member

    Messages:
    742
    Joined:
    8 Nov 2009
    Not got my notes to hand, but I'm fairly sure the existing timetable from Glasgow C to Kilmarnock, Ayr, Stranraer,Dumfries, Carlisle and Newcastle can run with only 9 diagrams. That excludes Barrhead, East Kilbride.
     

Share This Page