Edinburgh To Glasgow line: Future trains?

[sprinterguy]

I thought that Abellio had said they have 'ambitions' of increasing service on this route?

I didn't think that those ambitions stretched as far as the sporadic extensions east of Carlisle, just to the "core" services north from Carlisle. I don't have any proof to hand one way or the other, though.
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So the Perth to Edinburgh/Glasgow services will become 170 operated replacing 158s? and Dundee to Edinburgh/Glasgow will remain 170s as they are today?

I think the overall suggestion is that Perth and Dundee to Edinburgh/Glasgow services will be operated by 170s, yes.

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

Has anyone had any experiences of riding on a 380?, I'm wanting to know if they are any better than a 170?. I probably mentioned that i found 170's from edinburgh to glasgow and back a bit stuffy inside whereas the stirling ones seem to have better aircon wondered if it isn't as bad on the 380's?.

also with it being electric i guess it's less noisy inside too, which will be awesome for relaxing on journeys back from college *u*.

Also i have another curious noob question, what's the procedure/what happens if one of the passenger trains between edinburgh and glasgow breaks down mid route? has it ever happened as well?, Do they just send another 170 to push it along or?, i've once been in a 170 where i think the engine's electrics failed so it was pulled along by the front 170

 

[Failed Unit]

The Chieftain does occasionally stable at Perth when there are issues on the Highland Mainline - so it must have a suitable power-supply. What it doesn't (seem to) have is a working printer for the seat reservations...

I don't think it does, it normally runs empty to / from Edinburgh. You see it go by Linlithgow at about 0830 in such days.

 

[najaB]

Has anyone had any experiences of riding on a 380?, I'm wanting to know if they are any better than a 170?. I probably mentioned that i found 170's from edinburgh to glasgow and back a bit stuffy inside whereas the stirling ones seem to have better aircon wondered if it isn't as bad on the 380's?.

I've had a few journeys in 380's. I can't say that the interior environment is significantly different. As you said, their EMUs so they are quieter. The seats are slimmer so there is a little more leg room, and the aisles are a little wider.

Also i have another curious noob question, what's the procedure/what happens if one of the passenger trains between edinburgh and glasgow breaks down mid route? has it ever happened as well?, Do they just send another 170 to push it along or?, i've once been in a 170 where i think the engine's electrics failed so it was pulled along by the front 170

I don't think Scotrail has any 'Thunderbird' locos so yes, it would probably have to be another unit.

 

[me123]

Not got my notes to hand, but I'm fairly sure the existing timetable from Glasgow C to Kilmarnock, Ayr, Stranraer,Dumfries, Carlisle and Newcastle can run with only 9 diagrams. That excludes Barrhead, East Kilbride.

Could Scotrail enter into an agreement with Northern to provide an increase in frequency between Glasgow and Newcastle via Carlisle using Scotrail 156s (Northern crewed between Carlisle and Newcastle), releasing some Northern MUs to strengthen services elsewhere in England? That, combined with an increase in frequency, could start to account for 38 MUs.

Having said that, I think that the 38 will decrease once various future electrification projects are up and running (Shotts, East Kilbride, etc).

 

[ADRboy]

Has anyone had any experiences of riding on a 380?, I'm wanting to know if they are any better than a 170?. I probably mentioned that i found 170's from edinburgh to glasgow and back a bit stuffy inside whereas the stirling ones seem to have better aircon wondered if it isn't as bad on the 380's?.

also with it being electric i guess it's less noisy inside too, which will be awesome for relaxing on journeys back from college *u*.

They're probably the quietest trains in the fleet. 380's do have air con, as do the 170's. 380 air con is great & has WiFi/plugs through the whole train.

AT200's will be higher specced due to it being the flagship route - carpets etc & first class. It's the 24x4 cars that will be dedicated to E&G.

 

[najaB]

They're probably the quietest trains in the fleet. 380's do have air con, as do the 170's. 380 air con is great & has WiFi/plugs through the whole train.

Good point about the plugs, I was pleasantly surprised by that, though the 170s have Wi-Fi as well.

 

[PHILIPE]

Could Scotrail enter into an agreement with Northern to provide an increase in frequency between Glasgow and Newcastle via Carlisle using Scotrail 156s (Northern crewed between Carlisle and Newcastle), releasing some Northern MUs to strengthen services elsewhere in England? That, combined with an increase in frequency, could start to account for 38 MUs.

Having said that, I think that the 38 will decrease once various future electrification projects are up and running (Shotts, East Kilbride, etc).

DFT would have to be involved in such a suggestion to re-allocate Northern Units.

 

[ADRboy]

Good point about the plugs, I was pleasantly surprised by that, though the 170s have Wi-Fi as well.

Yep, system used on 380/158's is better in my experience though.

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

I've had a few journeys in 380's. I can't say that the interior environment is significantly different. As you said, their EMUs so they are quieter. The seats are slimmer so there is a little more leg room, and the aisles are a little wider.
I don't think Scotrail has any 'Thunderbird' locos so yes, it would probably have to be another unit.

:< do the seats feel noticeably stiffer. but i welcome the wider isles and the more leg room , I loved the 158 for having wider aisles than the 170, made it feel more roomy/airy.

Probably would be a DRS unit (66 probably) since i guess there seems to be a lot of DRS for freight around my area (ethier DRS or EWS i see for freight mostly)

(again im a noob :') ).

but thanks for the help guys

 

[sprinterguy]

Probably would be a DRS unit (66 probably) since i guess there seems to be a lot of DRS for freight around my area (ethier DRS or EWS i see for freight mostly)

By "unit" the reference is to another multiple unit, in this case probably one of Scotrail's 156s, 158s or 170s (most likely another 170 on the Edinburgh - Glasgow route). A class 66 or most other locomotives cannot couple to DMUs such as the 170s without the use of an emergency adaptor coupling.

 

[mbreckers]

Overheard a couple of ScotRail staff saying that the 380's will be withdrawn completely from the Ayrshire Coast Line to put them on the Shotts Line when it is electrified.

Can't confirm whether this is correct or just gossip

 

[me123]

Seems unlikely TBH.

My understanding is that the 380s will remain in Ayrshire. The new 385s look set to take over Shotts line operations in March 2019. They'll also be operating Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk, services to Stirling and (quite bizarrely) Cathcart Circle runs. This is based off this document released last year.

Not entirely unlikely that we'll see 380s on the Shotts line - their liberation from North Berwick duties will see quite a few more trains available in the West and it is certainly possible that they could run to Edinburgh via Shotts. However, I think it's more likely that they'll be on Cathcart and Paisley Canal runs to replace the 314s, and perhaps strengthen some services.

Even if they were to operate the entire Shotts service (which I don't think is at all likely), the entire fleet of 38 trains is most certainly not needed for this, and if the 380s weren't operating Ayrshire routes I'd be at a bit of a loss to think of where else they'd go.

 

[380101]

Overheard a couple of ScotRail staff saying that the 380's will be withdrawn completely from the Ayrshire Coast Line to put them on the Shotts Line when it is electrified.

Can't confirm whether this is correct or just gossip

Gossip! No plans to withdraw 380s from Ayrshire. None of the the 318/320 fleet can run down in service there now as all DOO mirrors/monitors are gone and no drivers are trained on them anymore. You are talking over 200 drivers that would need trained and it isn't going to happen anytime soon. All 334s are utilised on North clyde and Airdrie - Bathgate lines.

I think 7 or 8 380s will be "loaned" to the Edinburgh-queen Street from December 2016 as per franchise agreement until the 385 arrives in 2017. The extra 7 320 units will fill any gaps left by the temp. 380 move across the river. Most likely lanark services.

 

[380gk]

Gossip! No plans to withdraw 380s from Ayrshire. None of the the 318/320 fleet can run down in service there now as all DOO mirrors/monitors are gone and no drivers are trained on them anymore. You are talking over 200 drivers that would need trained and it isn't going to happen anytime soon. All 334s are utilised on North clyde and Airdrie - Bathgate lines.

I think 7 or 8 380s will be "loaned" to the Edinburgh-queen Street from December 2016 as per franchise agreement until the 385 arrives in 2017. The extra 7 320 units will fill any gaps left by the temp. 380 move across the river. Most likely lanark services.

Correct.
There's a known issue with 380s on repeated bouts of circles work. Currently, 380s cannot go to Nielston either due to the length of the siding. 380s will return to Ayrshire and Inverclyde after the new units arrive.

The big question, of course, is that of DOO....

 

[Clansman]

I don't think it does, it normally runs empty to / from Edinburgh. You see it go by Linlithgow at about 0830 in such days.

I'm sure VTEC actually have a diagrammed service in the event that the Chieftain has to terminate at Perth. There's a couple of "run when required" services on Real Time Trains.

See Here

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

Hey :3, sorry if this is necroing or such but i needed to ask

Will there be any extra variation of freight on the line as opposed to the usual 66's / occasional 60's/56's that run on it with the new electrification?, or will freights still go around the other route to slateford/mossend?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hey :3, sorry if this is necroing or such but i needed to ask

Will there be any extra variation of freight on the line as opposed to the usual 66's / occasional 60's/56's that run on it with the new electrification?, or will freights still go around the other route to slateford/mossend?

I would be very surprised to see any electric freight on the route. There are currently no flows which would be electrified end to end.

 

[Photohunter71]

Hardly any freight uses the ECML and the Edinburgh south suburban line these days. With the closure of Longannet and Cockenzie, coal trains are now a page in hostory. The Sub was altered to W12 guage recently for clearance purposes as well as future electrification. Although I have seen the odd engineers, nuclear flask, cement and container traffic, there really is nothing of note and I can't see it improving unless there's a dramatic reversal of power station policy and huge increases of container freight plus a major revival of the steel industry.
Unlike back in the day, whilst as a wee boy spending his time by Kilwinning station, all manner of traffic went by (coal,metals,ammonia,aviation fuel,iron ore, not to mention the coal sidings close to the station etc, we even got the sea link train to Stranraer!) Although I would like to see more ECML freight, I don't think I will unless transport policy is changed etc. I will however, look forward to seeing the new 385's.

 

[najaB]

Although I would like to see more ECML freight, I don't think I will unless transport policy is changed etc.

Broadly speaking, transport policy supports moving road freight to rail. However these days there aren't as many of the bulk flows that rail does well (e.g. coal), and the 21st century railway doesn't have the facilities to support wagon load freight.

 

[Photohunter71]

Broadly speaking, transport policy supports moving road freight to rail. However these days there aren't as many of the bulk flows that rail does well (e.g. coal), and the 21st century railway doesn't have the facilities to support wagon load freight.

Exactly! We'd need a few more access points/hubs/yards for enterprise workings which I imagine would incorporate some road/rail deliveries. However, haven't enterprise workings all but vanished now due to road haulage having better access alone or is it a lack of the will to at least try?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I'm a first time visitor to this thread and I notice nobody has really answered the queries regarding the need for as many as 38 156s for G&SW diesel routes. Back of a fag packet calculations coming up. Assuming hourly Glasgow-Dumfries-Carlisle, hourly Glasgow-Kilmarnock-Ayr-Stranraer and half hourly Glasgow-Barrhead turnbacks that gives, based on current timings, a need for 15 basic all day workings. Then add in the likelihood of (nearly) all services being specified for double sets and then 30 units out 38 is 79% availability. Quite reasonable for a diesel fleet of that age.

As for ScotRail via the Tyne Valley I suspect that will "die a natural death": Northern's Connect services will be operated with 158s, which probably won't be signed by any suitable Scottish depots by then, and there is a distinct possibility that the remaining units in Heaton's allocation will be 150s, depending of course on how Cumbrian Coast workings will be covered unit-wise. So every chance that inter-TOC crewing becomes too expensive to continue.

 

[gsnedders]

I'm a first time visitor to this thread and I notice nobody has really answered the queries regarding the need for as many as 38 156s for G&SW diesel routes. Back of a fag packet calculations coming up. Assuming hourly Glasgow-Dumfries-Carlisle, hourly Glasgow-Kilmarnock-Ayr-Stranraer and half hourly Glasgow-Barrhead turnbacks that gives, based on current timings, a need for 15 basic all day workings. Then add in the likelihood of (nearly) all services being specified for double sets and then 30 units out 38 is 79% availability. Quite reasonable for a diesel fleet of that age.

You've forgotten the East Kilbride branch, which is half-hourly and each is a double set in the peak.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

You've forgotten the East Kilbride branch, which is half-hourly and each is a double set in the peak.

I deliberately excluded it as I expect it will be a high priority for electrification at the earliest opportunity with a possibility that it jumps the current queue given the very high usage it already enjoys. I also believe that when ScotRail had less pressure on its DMU fleet that at least one peak working was 3x156.

If electrification does have to wait then it makes 38 156s look extremely tight, barring some tightening of diagrams which I suspect would be possible, so the previously expressed surprise at the size of the fleet looks even more misplaced!

 

[Southsider]

I deliberately excluded it as I expect it will be a high priority for electrification at the earliest opportunity with a possibility that it jumps the current queue given the very high usage it already enjoys.

Sadly the reverse seems to be true - it keeps slipping down the queue.

 

[gsnedders]

I deliberately excluded it as I expect it will be a high priority for electrification at the earliest opportunity with a possibility that it jumps the current queue given the very high usage it already enjoys. I also believe that when ScotRail had less pressure on its DMU fleet that at least one peak working was 3x156.

If electrification does have to wait then it makes 38 156s look extremely tight, barring some tightening of diagrams which I suspect would be possible, so the previously expressed surprise at the size of the fleet looks even more misplaced!

It might still be triple units; I don't often go there on-peak!

 

[ld0595]

It might still be triple units; I don't often go there on-peak!

I took a peak service a few weeks ago and it was a triple unit. I believe it was either the 7:42 or 7:58. There is also at least one triple unit in the afternoon peak too.

 

[route101]

Sadly the reverse seems to be true - it keeps slipping down the queue.

EK line should of been priority electrification and priority for doubling , EK is Scotlands 2nd largest town ! Its the fact that is more communters using it !

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

Sorry for another necro, But any news on when the 170's will be replaced on the Edinburgh to glasgow via falkirk high?, i heard about 380's being temporarily drafted in.

 

[ld0595]

Sorry for another necro, But any news on when the 170's will be replaced on the Edinburgh to glasgow via falkirk high?, i heard about 380's being temporarily drafted in.

Two pairs of 380s were due to take over some duties from the May timetable change until enough 385s can cover them. Although the line hasn't yet been energized so I can't see that happening until June.