Edinburgh to London tickets changing to via York rather than any permitted

[Bletchleyite]

Although I'm not sure how many affected passengers would know that.

Or indeed whether LNER will take that information and shove "route York" on those too. There are however others, including some where putting "route York" on would have no effect even if they did due to the existence of cheaper "route Not London" tickets set by Avanti.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As far as I can see from brfares, there are now no walk-on Any Permitted fares between Edinburgh and London.
They are all routed Via York (occasionally LNER-Only).

Caledonian Sleeper has Advance fares marked Booked Train Only.
Avanti has Advance fares route AP Rugby, Booked Train Only.
There are LNER & Connections Advance fares, also Booked Train Only.

If you try and book a single via Preston on the Avanti site, you are offered a £150.10 Off-Peak single (AWC Only, code SVS) which is not listed on brfares.
There are cheaper Advance fares offered, booked train only.

 

[yorkie]

There is no longer a walk-up option available for travel via Carlisle-Preston-Euston unless you commit to Avanti only.

This is a sign of things to come; this appears to be what the DfT and certain train companies want. They are actively ignoring fares regulation and simultaneously saying it is not fit for purpose. They do not want customers to have flexibility.

 

[superjohn]

If you try and book a single via Preston on the Avanti site, you are offered a £150.10 Off-Peak single (AWC Only, code SVS) which is not listed on brfares.

They are there but are to Euston specifically.
http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=EDB&dest=EUS

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They are there but are to Euston specifically.
http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=EDB&dest=EUS

Ah, I didn't think of using Expert mode.

 

[Hadders]

So taking a TPE train from Edinburgh and changing to Avanti isn't allowed.
Travelling via Glasgow is a no-no even though it has been a permitted route since the year dot.
Travelling on the sleeper with a flexible ticket (e.g out via LNER return via sleeper with berth supplement) - forget it.

This really is a disgrace.

Of course there are workarounds (at present) for those of us in the know but this is reducing flexibility and no doubt the railway will seek to blame the 1990s era British Rail system and say it's no longer fit for purpose, needs reforming etc. The reality is it is the modern day railway that has created this problem.

 

[greyman42]

Travelling via Glasgow is a no-no even though it has been a permitted route since the year dot.

I don't understand. If it is a permitted route, how is it a no-no?

 

[yorkie]

I don't understand. If it is a permitted route, how is it a no-no?

How would you get from Edinburgh to Glasgow on Avanti?

Yes via Glasgow is on a permitted route but you would need to purchase an additional fare to get to Glasgow!

The reality is it is the modern day railway that has created this problem.

They will never admit it.

 

[Hadders]

Avanti don't operate trains from Edinburgh to Glasgow and given that the tickets available are routed 'via York' or 'Avanti only' it's no longer possible to travel from Edinburgh - London via Glasgow.

 

[Mainline421]

The problem still exists, there's now no walk-up fare for the direct Caledonian Sleeper services from Edinburgh to Euston....

 

[Hadders]

I really don't understand why the Avanti priced tickets into Euston couldn't be routed 'via Carlisle'. Avanti would get practically all the revenue from them anyway but the passenger would retain flexibility. It would solve all of the problems but it is 'too simple' for the railway which specialises in making things complicated.

It is just typical of today's railway to act in a disjointed, uncoordinated way.

 

[superjohn]

Yes via Glasgow is on a permitted route but you would need to purchase an additional fare to get to Glasgow!

The off peak Avanti fares to Euston forbid break of journey on the outward so you wouldn’t even be able to do that, it would be starting short at Glasgow.

 

[greyman42]

Avanti don't operate trains from Edinburgh to Glasgow and given that the tickets available are routed 'via York' or 'Avanti only' it's no longer possible to travel from Edinburgh - London via Glasgow.

Cheers, I understand now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But from other places (eg Birmingham, Manchester) you can travel via Glasgow and use other operators?
It's just the fare from London (for now) that causes problems.

 

[Hadders]

But from other places (eg Birmingham, Manchester) you can travel via Glasgow and use other operators?
It's just the fare from London (for now) that causes problems.

It's just tickets from Edinburgh - London and v.v that are affected which is why workarounds are available.

 

[gray1404]

I am not convinced the correct procedures were followed in changing the routing of this fare from Any Permitted to Via York. As such I wonder if the change is unlawful.

The regulated Any Permitted fare's between London and Edinburgh no longer remain. To go from Any Permitted to either a "Via York" or "Route: Avanti" is not lawful. By all means if you really must introduce a half price single routed "Via York" but the Any Permitted return priced ticket (with a single around £1 cheaper) should have remained

We now have a situation where, if the walk up fares routed "Avanti" between Euston and Edinburgh is correct, can only be used on ATC and no other TOCs on this route. This is worse of a restriction then via York. Plus the ability to go via the East Coast is taken away - even though you have paid much more.

The correct procedures have not been followed. The DfT have been unlawful in allowing this change and it needs to be challenged and reverted.

 

[gray1404]

Avanti want 100% of the revenue, hence making them AWC only.

There should be an Any Permitted fares valid via both the East Coast and West Coast. If the tickets were routed via Carlisle (or similar) AWC would have to share the revenue with other TOCs which they clearly don't want to do. Neither do LNER, hence making the tickets via York. LNER don't want to have to share revenue with AWC.

If a customer doesn't have an Any Permitted ticket though, so if AWC or via Carlisle (if later introduced), then given the restricted validity the cost should reflect this. They should not be having to pay the former Any Permitted price to only be allowed to travel via the WCML.

 

[Hadders]

Avanti want 100% of the revenue, hence making them AWC only.

There should be an Any Permitted fares valid via both the East Coast and West Coast. If the tickets were routed via Carlisle (or similar) AWC would have to share the revenue with other TOCs which they clearly don't want to do. Neither do LNER, hence making the tickets via York. LNER don't want to have to share revenue with AWC.

If a customer doesn't have an Any Permitted ticket though, so if AWC or via Carlisle (if later introduced), then given the restricted validity the cost should reflect this. They should not be having to pay the former Any Permitted price to only be allowed to travel via the WCML.

In reality Avanti will get almost all of the revenue from a 'via Carlisle' fare.

Before this all started Avanti would have got little of the Any Permitted fare as most passengers would have gone via York.

We manage just fine with London - Exeter being via Taunton or via Honiton. SWR haven't felt the need to introduce 'SWR only fares' so I don't get why we can't have a 'via Carlisle' fare here.

It seems to me as though Avanti want to have their cake and eat it.

 

[gray1404]

LNER are just as bad. They could have continued to have charged the new single fare and kept it routed Any Permitted.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I am not convinced the correct procedures were followed in changing the routing of this fare from Any Permitted to Via York. As such I wonder if the change is unlawful.

The regulated Any Permitted fare's between London and Edinburgh no longer remain. To go from Any Permitted to either a "Via York" or "Route: Avanti" is not lawful. By all means if you really must introduce a half price single routed "Via York" but the Any Permitted return priced ticket (with a single around £1 cheaper) should have remained

We now have a situation where, if the walk up fares routed "Avanti" between Euston and Edinburgh is correct, can only be used on ATC and no other TOCs on this route. This is worse of a restriction then via York. Plus the ability to go via the East Coast is taken away - even though you have paid much more.

The correct procedures have not been followed. The DfT have been unlawful in allowing this change and it needs to be challenged and reverted.

What law do you suggest has been broken?

 

[Hadders]

LNER are just as bad. They could have continued to have charged the new single fare and kept it routed Any Permitted.

Agreed although I suspect that this is Avanti led given that LNER would get the vast majority of the Any Permitted revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am now wondering something.

Might Avanti have done it not because of anything to do with Edinburgh, but because it would be the best ticket to purchase to travel from Euston to Preston in the evening peak due to the lack of break of journey restriction and lack of evening restrictions?

In any case, I absolutely agree that the route should be via Carlisle (to allow TPE etc) and not Avanti Only.

Regarding the Sleeper though there's little point, with single fare pricing, in using that plus a supplement - it's easier and probably cheaper just to book a dedicated CS ticket. That's a key benefit of single-fare pricing.

 

[northken]

Would someone 'off-route' on Avanti with a Via York ticket be allowed to excess their ticket to Route: Avanti? How does it work with excessing a routeing restriction to a TOC restriction, or vice versa? Thanks!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would someone 'off-route' on Avanti with a Via York ticket be allowed to excess their ticket to Route: Avanti? How does it work with excessing a routeing restriction to a TOC restriction, or vice versa? Thanks!

You can't excess away a TOC restriction, and I'm not sure if you can excess into one either?

That said, as it's a walk-up you could just purchase a new one and refund it, though that'll cost you a tenner. Half of this problem would be solved, indeed, if the £10 admin fee for refunding walk-up tickets was removed, particularly if single-fare pricing went national. The only real problem it leaves is an inability to use TPE to Manchester/Preston then switch to Avanti.

 

[robbeech]

I don't think there are any restrictions in excessing IN to a TOC restriction, indeed this is more common when there are TOC only first class fares but no any permitted first class fare so different concept but the same principle in reality.

 

[Hadders]

London - Edinburgh via York tickets are all singles so in reality you wouldn't need to excess it. The worst it would be would be a refund and purchase a new route Avanti ticket.

The problem is if you hold a London - Edinburgh return ticket which is route Avanti and you want to come back via York. Basically you're stuffed as you can't excess a route Avanti ticket to a via York ticket.

 

[thedbdiboy]

There is no longer a walk-up option available for travel via Carlisle-Preston-Euston unless you commit to Avanti only.

This is a sign of things to come; this appears to be what the DfT and certain train companies want. They are actively ignoring fares regulation and simultaneously saying it is not fit for purpose. They do not want customers to have flexibility.

From a purely factual angle, the DfT are not ignoring fare regulation. Fare regulation is a contractual arrangement managed through individual franchise agreements with regards to the prices of certain tickets, and through the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement with regard to the general requirements for fares, flows, routes etc as managed between operators. In both cases it is mandated by the DfT and they have the authority to change it - there is no statutory or legal requirement for them to enforce specific fares, routes or flows in perpetuity.

 

[PG]

From a purely factual angle, the DfT are not ignoring fare regulation. Fare regulation is a contractual arrangement managed through individual franchise agreements with regards to the prices of certain tickets, and through the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement with regard to the general requirements for fares, flows, routes etc as managed between operators. In both cases it is mandated by the DfT and they have the authority to change it - there is no statutory or legal requirement for them to enforce specific fares, routes or flows in perpetuity.

(my bolding)... so basically we're stuffed - DfT can do as they please!

 

[thedbdiboy]

Yes - they are the government....

 

[ainsworth74]

The correct procedures have not been followed. The DfT have been unlawful in allowing this change and it needs to be challenged and reverted.

I look forward to reading about your Judicial Review case!