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Edinburgh to London tickets changing to via York rather than any permitted

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Sentinel

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Further craziness that 1st class single from BHM to EDB is "Any Permitted" at the (ridiculous) price of £341.90.
(No fare simply "via Lancaster" as there is from MAN to EDB for example).

EUS to EDB is £251.00. Thus it costs £90.90 more to travel to EDB from BHM than from EUS....!

However STA - EDB is £215.00 and BHM - STA is a mere £16.20, total = £231.20.
Thus it costs a BHM passenger traveling to EDB is effectively paying £125.90 to get from BHM to STA....!!!

This is all bonkers.
 
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alistairlees

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Further craziness that 1st class single from BHM to EDB is "Any Permitted" at the (ridiculous) price of £341.90.
(No fare simply "via Lancaster" as there is from MAN to EDB for example).

EUS to EDB is £251.00. Thus it costs £90.90 more to travel to EDB from BHM than from EUS....!

However STA - EDB is £215.00 and BHM - STA is a mere £16.20, total = £231.20.
Thus it costs a BHM passenger traveling to EDB is effectively paying £125.90 to get from BHM to STA....!!!

This is all bonkers.
What do all these acronyms stand for?
 

Sentinel

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What do all these acronyms stand for?
They are the 3 character codes for stations. Try using them when you book tickets on websites, or accessing the NFM fares, or BR Fares website. They also appear on the Real Time Trains website when you check on train status. EDB = Edinburgh Waverley, BHM = Birmingham New Street, EUS = Euston, STA = Stafford.
 

yorkie

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They are the 3 character codes for stations. Try using them when you book tickets on websites, or accessing the NFM fares, or BR Fares website...
Or even his own site ;) He knows this part; what he was asking for was for this....
EDB = Edinburgh Waverley, BHM = Birmingham New Street, EUS = Euston, STA = Stafford.
 

Sentinel

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And other crazy single 1st class fares from EDB still not sorted despite my complaints are EDB to MAN:

EDB - MAN via East Coast : £330.30
EDB - MAN via West Coast : £177.50

EDB - YRK via East Coast : £143.50

Thus it costs £186.80 to cross the Pennines from Manchester to York !!!
And a single 1st class for this sector costs just £46.40, i.e. £140.40 less.

Come on Rail (non) Delivery Group. You must be joking or perhaps just incompetent - a £140 rip off just to cross the Pennines... and you want to stop split ticketing? Get your current fares consistent and not a joke, and we may be more sympathetic.
 

yorkie

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And other crazy single 1st class fares from EDB still not sorted despite my complaints are EDB to MAN:

EDB - MAN via East Coast : £330.30
EDB - MAN via West Coast : £177.50

EDB - YRK via East Coast : £143.50

Thus it costs £186.80 to cross the Pennines from Manchester to York !!!
And a single 1st class for this sector costs just £46.40, i.e. £140.40 less.

Come on Rail (non) Delivery Group. You must be joking or perhaps just incompetent - a £140 rip off just to cross the Pennines... and you want to stop split ticketing? Get your current fares consistent and not a joke, and we may be more sympathetic.
What fares are you comparing here?

You appear to be comparing a single with a return but it's very cryptic and unclear.

It's up to the relevant train company to set the fare, as shown in BRFares.

The £143.50 fare for EDB - YRK is an Anytime 1st Single routed Any Permitted; the equivalent fare onwards to Manchester is £190 so by my maths that's £46.50 extra to get from York to Manchester in 1st class. As it happens a York to Manchester 1st class single is £46.40.

But if you are particularly concerned about being charged more for a through fare than a combination of fares, simply use a ticket splitting site. There is no reason not to. I do this and I get to choose e-tickets (where available) and I get to choose a seat of my choice through the seat selector.

The reality is that it's never going to be possible to ensure that a through fare is cheapest for every journey; some journeys are always going to require a combination of ticket (especially multi-modal journeys).

If there is a particular point you wish to make, I think a new thread would be best, as it's difficult to see how this relates to the original topic.
 
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devon_metro

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Presumably if I rocked up at Waverley and asked for a Brunstane to London Super Off Peak return, this would be sold, even if i'm clearly about to jump on the next departure from Waverley to either Kings Cross or Euston, since this fare is the same price as two singles but valid Any Permitted?
 

Bletchleyite

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Presumably if I rocked up at Waverley and asked for a Brunstane to London Super Off Peak return, this would be sold, even if i'm clearly about to jump on the next departure from Waverley to either Kings Cross or Euston, since this fare is the same price as two singles but valid Any Permitted?

Now just watch that fare gain an outward break of journey restriction (or route York) to stop that happening.

People shouldn't post these loopholes, they just get "fixed" when you do. Just buy them online and collect from the TVM, anyone who wants to buy those tickets knows how to find them, the vast majority of people are content to travel via York anyway.
 

yorkie

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Presumably if I rocked up at Waverley and asked for a Brunstane to London Super Off Peak return, this would be sold, even if i'm clearly about to jump on the next departure from Waverley to either Kings Cross or Euston, since this fare is the same price as two singles but valid Any Permitted?
Yes, or you can buy it to Kentish Town (bonus: you get a free cross London transfer) and finish short.

In some cases you save money by buying a longer journey as the new trial fares have no Off Peak option! (see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-new-fares-trial.197707/page-4#post-4395993 )
 

Sentinel

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What fares are you comparing here?

You appear to be comparing a single with a return but it's very cryptic and unclear.

It's up to the relevant train company to set the fare, as shown in BRFares.

The £143.50 fare for EDB - YRK is an Anytime 1st Single routed Any Permitted; the equivalent fare onwards to Manchester is £190 so by my maths that's £46.50 extra to get from York to Manchester in 1st class. As it happens a York to Manchester 1st class single is £46.40.

But if you are particularly concerned about being charged more for a through fare than a combination of fares, simply use a ticket splitting site. There is no reason not to. I do this and I get to choose e-tickets (where available) and I get to choose a seat of my choice through the seat selector.

The reality is that it's never going to be possible to ensure that a through fare is cheapest for every journey; some journeys are always going to require a combination of ticket (especially multi-modal journeys).

If there is a particular point you wish to make, I think a new thread would be best, as it's difficult to see how this relates to the original topic.
Apologies, I should have shown the example as from Macclesfield (MAC). They are the single fares from MAC to EDB. The return fare is a staggering £660.50. Look it up if you (rightly) don’t believe it. MAC is a mere £16.70 single from MAN.
My point here is not about split ticketing and its advantages (of which I have used for many years before the more recent popular awareness) and I think it is relevant to this thread. It simply illustrates that the TOCs and the RDG are totally incompetent with regard to setting fares to and from EDB, and have been for several years now. If the London travellers think they now have problems, look what we’ve been putting up with in the Midlands and North West to and from EDB (and beyond, say to Dundee) for years now.
Nothing changes with the present debacle.
I have spent significant amounts of my own business money on flexible 1st class fares to and from Scotland for years now, and the latest shambles does not surprise me.
That’s all from me on this. Over to the rest of you to try and get some sense into the TOCs, and good luck with that then.....
 

thedbdiboy

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This craziness is because the DfT mandates Avanti, Crosscountry and West Midlands Trains to set separate interavailable fares valid on each others trains; forbids them to discuss the pricing with each other as it contravenes competition law; and then regulates fares within each frachise so that they embed anomalies. The system is crazy. That is why fare setting looks likely to be (at least temporarily) nationalised as a result of the Williams review.

This will be good news on the one hand because it really is the only way that the mess can be untangled. However, on the other hand it will start to reign in the enjoyment of anyone who has enjoyed the roaring trade in unfettered conflicting fares and route permissions that allow one set of fares to undermine another. Politically, the core fare levels will be protected but the change to the Edinburgh - London fares is indicative that some of the previous freedoms will be restricted to reign in anomalies.

This is the irony of the trend towards operators coming back into public ownership. All the time the issues with fares were privatised, it was politically toxic to allow changes that could be viewed as letting the private sector have its own way. However, once the Government assumes control, the madness is so self-evidently unsustainable that changes get made that would previously have not been permitted under the regulation of franchised TOCs.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is the irony of the trend towards operators coming back into public ownership. All the time the issues with fares were privatised, it was politically toxic to allow changes that could be viewed as letting the private sector have its own way. However, once the Government assumes control, the madness is so self-evidently unsustainable that changes get made that would previously have not been permitted under the regulation of franchised TOCs.

One thing that's interesting to contemplate is what the fare system would have looked like had BR continued as it was.
 

yorkie

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This craziness is because the DfT mandates Avanti, Crosscountry and West Midlands Trains to set separate interavailable fares valid on each others trains; forbids them to discuss the pricing with each other as it contravenes competition law; and then regulates fares within each frachise so that they embed anomalies. The system is crazy. That is why fare setting looks likely to be (at least temporarily) nationalised as a result of the Williams review.
It looks to me like various parties are acting in a manner that is deliberately designed to make the system look crazy in order to justify their actions.

It is the actions (or inactions) of the DfT and certain train companies that have caused most of this craziness and it would actually be easy to fix the fares concerned by reducing them were appropriate. No-one is stopping TOCs doing that.

But they choose not to because they appear to be are lobbying for a system that favours them and the DfT wants that.
This will be good news on the one hand because it really is the only way that the mess can be untangled.
It's an interesting situation because they can choose to do some really crazy stuff in order to justify a new system.
However, on the other hand it will start to reign in the enjoyment of anyone who has enjoyed the roaring trade in unfettered conflicting fares and route permissions that allow one set of fares to undermine another.
In other words, some people are currently deemed to be paying too little and/or getting too much flexibility.
Politically, the core fare levels will be protected but the change to the Edinburgh - London fares is indicative that some of the previous freedoms will be restricted to reign in anomalies.
You are right that the plans do centre around restricting the routes people can take. There have been numerous attempts (some successful and some not) to reduce the routeing options for many journeys in recent years.
This is the irony of the trend towards operators coming back into public ownership. All the time the issues with fares were privatised, it was politically toxic to allow changes that could be viewed as letting the private sector have its own way. However, once the Government assumes control, the madness is so self-evidently unsustainable that changes get made that would previously have not been permitted under the regulation of franchised TOCs.
This is a good observation indeed.
One thing that's interesting to contemplate is what the fare system would have looked like had BR continued as it was.
That's a whole topic in its own right but sticking to the matter in hand, they would not have been bothered if people went via York or via Carlisle. And if there was a price difference it would have been small, with excessing of the difference (and no more) being possible on the train at no penalty.
 

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Politically, the core fare levels will be protected but the change to the Edinburgh - London fares is indicative that some of the previous freedoms will be restricted to reign in anomalies.

I had to laugh at this. The recent changes to Edinburgh - London fares has introduced more anomalies, not simplified things!!!
 

Bletchleyite

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I had to laugh at this. The recent changes to Edinburgh - London fares has introduced more anomalies, not simplified things!!!

That's only because it's a trial, and any trial only covering a few stations is going to have anomalies. If it's successful, single fare pricing will be rolled out to the entire network and most of the anomalies will go away.
 

Bletchleyite

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sticking to the matter in hand, they would not have been bothered if people went via York or via Carlisle. And if there was a price difference it would have been small, with excessing of the difference (and no more) being possible on the train at no penalty.

Or would it? The APT pilot seemed to suggest that we might have seen the French style model of pricing and compulsory reservations on IC-APT services at least, which would mean no excessing at all, though you'd probably have been able to change a ticket for the ECML to one for the WCML prior to boarding. Some of the least flexible railway ticketing in Europe is from nationalised operations...
 

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That's only because it's a trial, and any trial only covering a few stations is going to have anomalies. If it's successful, single fare pricing will be rolled out to the entire network and most of the anomalies will go away.
What sort of anomalies were present for Edinburgh to London tickets and journeys? You couldn't use them to easily circumvent prices or time restrictions in any way that has now been "improved".
 

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It's looking unlikely that there will be a great deal of detail in Williams, unlikely to be enough to be considered 'bad news' or 'good news' - the key output is likely to be what structure will be put in place to manage the railway, and then all the 'problems' can be handed to them.
Indeed. I think anyone holding out for detailed technical policies hasn't been paying attention.
 

Bletchleyite

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What sort of anomalies were present for Edinburgh to London tickets and journeys? You couldn't use them to easily circumvent prices or time restrictions in any way that has now been "improved".

In this specific case? The cheapest ticket to buy for a journey from Euston to Manchester or Preston in the evening peak was a single to Edinburgh, for one (and it allows BoJ as not to allow it would be an unacceptable loss of flexibility, much more so than the routeing issue is, so this, unlike one to Lancaster, was perfectly allowed). I do wonder if this had become common knowledge and that this, not Glasgow, was actually the issue Avanti brought up (and therefore possibly the reason why "route not Motherwell" wouldn't work).

The new "route Avanti" ones, in common with other long distance WCML tickets, bar break of journey on the outward.

Or now you've got the fact that there's no return ticket from Edinburgh to London via the WCML, but you can have one by picking a random destination in north or south London. That's another anomaly caused by the trial in and of itself which would go away were it deemed successful and all return tickets abolished nationally.
 

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Or now you've got the fact that there's no return ticket from Edinburgh to London via the WCML, but you can have one by picking a random destination in north or south London. That's another anomaly caused by the trial in and of itself which would go away were it deemed successful and all return tickets abolished nationally.
I wonder who will be the judge of the success (or not) of the trial? Some independent, impartial body with no vested interests or more than likely the Rail Delivery Group (whoever comes up with these daft names?) who as we all know have passengers the industry's best interests at heart...
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Further craziness that 1st class single from BHM to EDB is "Any Permitted" at the (ridiculous) price of £341.90.
(No fare simply "via Lancaster" as there is from MAN to EDB for example).
EUS to EDB is £251.00. Thus it costs £90.90 more to travel to EDB from BHM than from EUS....!
However STA - EDB is £215.00 and BHM - STA is a mere £16.20, total = £231.20.
Thus it costs a BHM passenger traveling to EDB is effectively paying £125.90 to get from BHM to STA....!!!
This is all bonkers.

That's because the Birmingham-Edinburgh Any Permitted fare is set by Arriva Cross Country, who have had a policy of very high first class fares since being split off from the old Virgin operation (which combined ICWC and XC services until 2007).
One of their first acts was to increase the uplift from standard to first class fares from 50% to 100%.
You can probably get a much better value Advance fare on either Avanti or XC.
First class fares are not regulated.
 

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In this specific case? The cheapest ticket to buy for a journey from Euston to Manchester or Preston in the evening peak was a single to Edinburgh, for one (and it allows BoJ as not to allow it would be an unacceptable loss of flexibility, much more so than the routeing issue is, so this, unlike one to Lancaster, was perfectly allowed). I do wonder if this had become common knowledge and that this, not Glasgow, was actually the issue Avanti brought up (and therefore possibly the reason why "route not Motherwell" wouldn't work).

The new "route Avanti" ones, in common with other long distance WCML tickets, bar break of journey on the outward.

Or now you've got the fact that there's no return ticket from Edinburgh to London via the WCML, but you can have one by picking a random destination in north or south London. That's another anomaly caused by the trial in and of itself which would go away were it deemed successful and all return tickets abolished nationally.
Ah ha! Well, if you think that one's been fixed now, then clearly something is working out ;)
 

Starmill

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I wonder who will be the judge of the success (or not) of the trial? Some independent, impartial body with no vested interests or more than likely the Rail Delivery Group (whoever comes up with these daft names?) who as we all know have passengers the industry's best interests at heart...
To be fair, the RDG has its members interests in its sights, and no interest in anyone else's, even a little bit. I think they have not been too coy about that one, but in the absence of leadership...
 

bakerstreet

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That's another anomaly caused by the trial in and of itself which would go away were it deemed successful and all return tickets abolished nationally.

Does anyone know the detail on this.

If this very limited trial is successful (however ‘successful’ is being measured) will the plan be to abolish ALL return tickets?

Peak and off peak day returns, short anytime returns, anytime returns, off peak (SVR) returns or are we just talking about long distance (traditional intercity) journeys?

I’m interested in the scale of this.

Would the plan be for two singles between any two stations on the rail network which currently have off peak day returns (CDR) to equal the price of that CDR.

Or would 2 singles making up an off peak day return just go up in price to possibly the SVR price or perhaps higher.

Would an out boundary day travelcard still be possible (effectively a day return)

Is there any thought at this stage to local (short distance) trials to see its impact.
 

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My personal take is that CDRs would probably remain in some form, but period returns would be replaced by singles only at half the price of the period return.

I don't recall seeing any definitive reference, though.

Outboundary Day Travelcards are a bit of an outlier, being more influenced by whether TfL continues to support an expensive magstripe ticket infrastructure that in the long term doesn't benefit them at all.
 

ainsworth74

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That's why IMO they shouldn't be the folk to decide on the success of the trial...

I'm not sure that they are? It's the DfT I'd expect would be the ones that would be responsible for deciding how to proceed on the basis of the trial. I'm sure the members of the RDG will have their views on whether or not proceed but I'm not aware of it being their decision.

Of course it is convenient, as always in the railway industry, for the DfT to be able to obfuscate things so that the railway industry can be the whipping the boy for their own decisions.
 
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