Edinburgh to London tickets changing to via York rather than any permitted

[Bletchleyite]

How about an Avanti and connections ticket?

It needs to be route Carlisle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone fancy a FOI request? It'll be interesting to see what they redact.

I suspect they'd refuse the whole thing on commercial confidentiality grounds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti must know that their fares will also soon be following the single-leg pricing model.

I believe their franchise agreement involves reducing singles to 60% (or was it 70%?) of returns, but not 50%.

 

[sheff1]

At the moment you can travel London to Edinburgh "any permitted" without using LNER or Avanti at all! Introducing "Avanti only" tickets would be a very poor substitute.

Quite. All those putting forward 'Avanti-only', 'Avanti & connections' or 'via Carlisle' are, unwittingly or otherwise, endorsing the DfT/RDG strategy of reducing flexibility. For as long as I can remember a walk up Edinburgh to London ticket has been valid via either the ECML or WCML (plus MML and various other routes). If £75.75 is deemed to be a suitable price for a walk up Super OffPeak Single then that is the price which should apply via any Permitted Route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite. All those putting forward 'Avanti-only', 'Avanti & connections' or 'via Carlisle' are, unwittingly or otherwise, endorsing the DfT/RDG strategy of reducing flexibility.

No, I'm just accepting that flexibility will be lost and there's no way we are going to win that one. At least with single fare pricing you can choose which way you want to go up until a few minutes beforehand by delaying purchase.

What makes me very angry is "thou shalt go this way". A fare should be calculable for any route of the passenger's choosing. (I suppose Trainsplit can now do that - for this example split at Carlisle I guess!) Nobody tells me which way I must go by car.

 

[Starmill]

FWIW I see a note saying the replacement would be "Avanti only" - as others have said that isn't really acceptable because what if they wanted to use TPE?

Or, indeed ScotRail. Both crop up on many Sundays in the year as the quicker options, and people use them...

I imagine that there will be no route Carlisle tickets, however. Haymarket to London will still serve the purpose for those who are in the know, or are served by the most generous booking clerks.

 

[Starmill]

Quite. All those putting forward 'Avanti-only', 'Avanti & connections' or 'via Carlisle' are, unwittingly or otherwise, endorsing the DfT/RDG strategy of reducing flexibility.

Avanti know that they can use this as an opportunity to put the squeeze on by creating Avanti Only tickets - it's realistic to think they will take it. It's not good for consumers, but what is, these days? Don't overestimate our influence here.

 

[sheff1]

No, I'm just accepting that flexibility will be lost and there's no way we are going to win that one.

Yes, I probably should have said accepting rather than endorsing.

 

[thedbdiboy]

A fare should be calculable for any route of the passenger's choosing. (I suppose Trainsplit can now do that - for this example split at Carlisle I guess!) Nobody tells me which way I must go by car.

That is one of the aspirations of the future system - any national rail journey by any route should be capable of generating a fare. However, for that to work, fares have to be compatible with the prices for the route used, so it does require more granular routeing. An integral part of this is the need for a much easier way to change itineraries than exists now with the various excess rules.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I probably should have said accepting rather than endorsing.

I'm not sure there is much choice here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is one of the aspirations of the future system - any national rail journey by any route should be capable of generating a fare. However, for that to work, fares have to be compatible with the prices for the route used, so it does require more granular routeing. An integral part of this is the need for a much easier way to change itineraries than exists now with the various excess rules.

Just allowing walk-ups to be refundable for no fee would solve that. If you want to change it, refund and rebook.

 

[sheff1]

I imagine that there will be no route Carlisle tickets, however. Haymarket to London will still serve the purpose for those who are in the know, or are served by the most generous booking clerks.

At twice the price !

 

[Starmill]

What makes me very angry is "thou shalt go this way".

Would you like to travel from Manchester to Newark? Just a two hour five minute trip from Victoria to North Gate, want to arrive at 0838, with one easy 12 minute connection at Leeds?

Well guess what: you're not allowed. LNER won't let you.

Of course, until a couple of years ago they did not have a choice in the matter, but now you're expected to wait nearly an hour in Manchester until the 0718 and arrive 40 minutes later.

 

[Starmill]

Can you have 'and connections' for non-advance fares?

Yes. March to London has them.

 

[Kite159]

They provide an important cap on other fares. Without them you could well see Sunday evenings, for instance, costing £300+.

I can remember looking up fares for Edinburgh to London on a Easter Monday a couple years ago when the WCML was closed (Glasgow sleeper into Queen Street High Level). The vast majority of the advance fares on offer were for 50p less than the super off-peak single (When VTEC launched the website where they sold the half price singles on their own).

I bet if you remove that cap they would be trying to charge £100+ for the fast services.

I would imagine it will be similar this year with that £75 fare being standard for Sunday afternoon/evening departures, especially on bank holiday weekends.

 

[sheff1]

That is one of the aspirations of the future system - any national rail journey by any route should be capable of generating a fare. However, for that to work, fares have to be compatible with the prices for the route used, so it does require more granular routeing.

I hestitate to say this, for fear the thread will be hijacked by the usual suspects, but there is only a 7 mile difference between travelling Edinburgh to London via the ECML or via the WCML. In any sensible pricing model the fare would be the same via both routes. It should certainly not be twice the price for a walk up ticket on one than on the other (using the Haymarket workround) or not priced at all on one route which is what the change in this thread will mean.

 

[Starmill]

I bet if you remove that cap they would be trying to charge £100+ for the fast services.

You don't need to bet - we know it's true! Virgin Trains East Coast's leaked business plan from 2015 specifically said that they were "constrained" in yield by the Super Off Peak Return price at weekends, because they were obliged to offer it and unable to increase it. Simply put: they know that they could charge more than £145.70 for a Newcastle to London return on most weekend trains without turning custom away, but they're not allowed to.

 

[jon0844]

Reading the delay repay details for LNER it says that for a 120 minute delay you get a 100% refund of both the single and return journey (in other words, the whole ticket) but how can that work once they sell only singles? Then you'd only get half the money back for a long delay.

 

[yorkie]

I hestitate to say this, for fear the thread will be hijacked by the usual suspects, but there is only a 7 mile difference between travelling Edinburgh to London via the ECML or via the WCML. In any sensible pricing model the fare would be the same via both routes. It should certainly not be twice the price for a walk up ticket on one than on the other (using the Haymarket workround) or not priced at all on one route which is what the change in this thread will mean.

It should be the same price, agreed.

The changes to these fares are evidence that the DfT and other protagonists cannot be trusted to change any fares structure for the better. People may moan about the system left by BR but the DfT and the like are introducing more and more restrictions because they do not want customers to be able to buy a good value ticket and get flexibility.

Yes and, when the trial was anounced, DfT stated that the aim was to "significantly boost customer confidence and flexibility in booking train tickets".

The withdrawal of walk up tickets for anyone who wishes to make an end to end journey on a through train cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, significantly boost flexibility. The conclusion, therefore, must be that the trial has failed to meet its aim.

Absolutely. It has not only failed, but further exposed the incredible anti-passenger bias at the DfT.

Every time a change is made, which claims to make passengers more "confident" it actually reduces passenger rights and therefore reduces confidence.

This trial has caused fare increases, additional restrictions, people to be denied their rights, and lots of confusion. All of this was foreseeable and predictable.

 

[Starmill]

Reading the delay repay details for LNER it says that for a 120 minute delay you get a 100% refund of both the single and return journey (in other words, the whole ticket) but how can that work once they sell only singles? Then you'd only get half the money back for a long delay.

They will just pay consumers less compensation...

 

[yorkie]

Reading the delay repay details for LNER it says that for a 120 minute delay you get a 100% refund of both the single and return journey (in other words, the whole ticket) but how can that work once they sell only singles? Then you'd only get half the money back for a long delay.

Yes you only get half the money back. Also a passenger who previously got an Off Peak Return pays a huge premium. It's all covered here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-new-fares-trial.197707/

 

[Haywain]

Or, indeed ScotRail.

Or Caledonian Sleepers. For a railcard holder in particular, a discounted return can be the cheaper way of travelling one way with CS and the other by daytime services.

 

[infobleep]

So will any newspapers be investigating this and running a story to expose the increases and loss of flexibility? I mean they write negative articles every time the fares go up at Christmas and also at other times it is known by how much they might go up by at Christmas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes you only get half the money back. Also a passenger who previously got an Off Peak Return pays a huge premium. It's all covered here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-new-fares-trial.197707/

That aspect of Delay Repay makes no sense to me, anyway, as it's totally arbitrary what type of ticket is held. If they want a "penalty" step for the railway where they refund more than was delayed, just go up to 150% or 200% of the single. There is precedent for that in air travel where the EU delay compensation often well exceeds the fare.

 

[PG]

So will any newspapers be investigating this and running a story to expose the increases and loss of flexibility? I mean they write negative articles every time the fares go up at Christmas and also at other times it is known by how much they might go up by at Christmas.

Depends if anyone does the legwork for them so they have a ready source of copy to copy and paste plus some quotes to add in

 

[Chrism20]

So will any newspapers be investigating this and running a story to expose the increases and loss of flexibility? I mean they write negative articles every time the fares go up at Christmas and also at other times it is known by how much they might go up by at Christmas.

It's certainly one that Scotlands travel correspondent of the year - Al Dalton should be getting his teeth into

 

[thedbdiboy]

So will any newspapers be investigating this and running a story to expose the increases and loss of flexibility? I mean they write negative articles every time the fares go up at Christmas and also at other times it is known by how much they might go up by at Christmas.

There may be some loss of flexibility but the walk up off peak single fare has actually gone down quite a bit in price from EDB-LDN. I suspect that if you asked an ordinary person (rather than a routeing guide afficianado) whether they would choose the reduction in fare or route availability, they would rather save the money, so I'm not sure this is the sort of crusading cause celebre that's going to get the newspapers terribly excited.

 

[furlong]

That's not how these things usually work thought! The people who gain quietly accept it and you'll only hear from them if you attempt to revert to the previous position -then you might be almost doubling their fare so then they would feel aggrieved! (So it's hard to see how there can be any going back from this "trial".) It's the people who lose out who make the noise and cause the trouble.

 

[sheff1]

... the walk up off peak single fare has actually gone down quite a bit in price from EDB-LDN.

Really ?
I have just searched for the 1252 direct train from Edinburgh tomorrow (27 Feb) and the walk up off peak single fare is £75.75.
From next week there is no Standard walk up fare listed for that train. The only walk up fare is First @ £258.50.

so I'm not sure this is the sort of crusading cause celebre that's going to get the newspapers terribly excited.

I don't know. "Italian Rail Operator withdraws second {sic} class rail fare from Edinburgh to London" might get a quite a number of people excited.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Really ?
I have just searched for the 1252 direct train from Edinburgh tomorrow (27 Feb) and the walk up off peak single fare is £75.75.
From next week there is no Standard walk up fare listed for that train. The only walk up fare is First @ £258.50.

Yes but an ordinary traveller will actually get the 1300 which gets them to London nearly an hour earlier and will still cost £75.75, unless Avanti pull their finger out and sort out a suitable fare. Someone not versed in the weird world of rail fares might actually wonder why a fare priced by LNER was ever valid on the services of their main rail competitor.....