Edinburgh Tram developments

[Deerfold]

I just don't understand WHY this did not happen 2 years ago!

What "this" are you referring to?

If you mean the handover of the route for testing I'm assuming it wasn't thought to be ready.

 

[Zoidberg]

What "this" are you referring to?

If you mean the handover of the route for testing I'm assuming it wasn't thought to be ready.

I think the Honourable Member may be referring to the shambles resulting from the incompetence of the Edinburgh authorities to have this project delivered on time - in 2011.

 

[Deerfold]

I think the Honourable Member may be referring to the shambles resulting from the incompetence of the Edinburgh authorities to have this project delivered on time - in 2011.

I don't see why they would have expected it two years ago. Was it not already massively over budget and behind schedule long before then?

 

[Zoidberg]

I don't see why they would have expected it two years ago. Was it not already massively over budget and behind schedule long before then?

Yes, the completion date was shoved back to 2014 early in 2010 - but that doesn't stop folk wondering about the mismanagement which allowed the 2011 date to be missed.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, the completion date was shoved back to 2014 early in 2010 - but that doesn't stop folk wondering about the mismanagement which allowed the 2011 date to be missed.

I'm not trying to apologise for that mismanagment - it seems to have been handled extremely badly.

However what's happening now seems to about the best we can expect given what has happened before so I'm not quite sure what the point of going over it all again is.

Sure, next time there's a large project look at what lessons can be learned - what problems can be avoided etc.

 

[Zoidberg]

I'm not trying to apologise for that mismanagment - it seems to have been handled extremely badly.

However what's happening now seems to about the best we can expect given what has happened before so I'm not quite sure what the point of going over it all again is.

Sure, next time there's a large project look at what lessons can be learned - what problems can be avoided etc.

In bold - I agree. And we can but hope that lessons from the exercise will be learned and applied to future projects.

What, I think, wrankles most about the fiasco is the waste of a very large amount of public funds and the major inconvenience to the citizens of and visitors to Edinburgh through mismanagement of the project and that there seems not to have been any real acceptance of responsibility. It seems that the authorities are trying to hide the shambles behind the current positive news that it'll soon be up and running.

 

[overthewater]

We already know what went wrong, the SNP government at the time ( 2007) washed its hands of the project, thus Transport Scotland was pulled from dealing with the project. 4 years later it turned into a mess -- SNP government overruled the council and reinstated Transport Scotland to run the project.

If the SNP had not been to stuck up about the trams we may have line from Leith - Airport.

Transport Scotland track record is extremely good, for all types of transport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Council was never good to start with. The waste of public money has been pushed under the carpet, mainly because of all the brand new water, Gas, Phone and electric which had to be fitted on Leith walk, Princess street. Why a bill was not sent to Scottish Power, Gas and BT I never know for all the new outlays etc.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Testing of the trams on-road has begun!

Leaflets have been sent to the larger employers to warn staff of the hazards of 'quiet' running trams on the roads.
Here's a pic from their twitter page https://twitter.com/EdinburghTrams


Also, the apparently endless blockade of the roads around Haymarket (while the concrete was relaid and removed and relaid and removed and . . . . ) is over. There still cones around the central bus & tram lanes, but the works there are complete. Shandwick Place is still being worked on.

The first test runs in the city centre are scheduled to run at night-time in December.

 

[Zoidberg]

Testing of the trams on-road has begun!

...

And it's already shown up some deficiencies in the Edinburgh Park area.

From http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...racks-before-launch-show-rushed-job-1-3140445

EXPERTS have warned that cracked concrete discovered on the route of Edinburgh’s tram line just hours after testing began could become a serious maintenance problem.

The cracking was found by the Evening News in concrete under an elevated section of track close to the Edinburgh Park tram stop.

The fault was discovered as contractors were walking alongside one of the trams, which was making its maiden journey from the Gogar depot to Edinburgh Park on Tuesday in a new phase of the testing programme.

But it was good to see the bus gate at Queensferry Street/Shandwick Place open a couple of weekends ago while I was back in civilisation.

 

[90019]

But it was good to see the bus gate at Queensferry Street/Shandwick Place open a couple of weekends ago while I was back in civilisation.

It's open, but so far isn't working that well.
It's a combination of cars going where they're not supposed to (in particular, coming up from Queensferry Street, through the bus gate and turning right onto Lothian Road), and the lights being out of sync a lot of the time, though it's not as bad as it was the first weekend it was open, when it got so clogged up at one point that the lights were all turned off and the Police were directing traffic.

The problem is that the signage is crap, and there are plenty of cars drivers who quite happily ignore it all anyway, but this goes for the whole of the city centre.

 

[edwin_m]

I took a quick look last week while waiting for my train from Waverley, and was disappointed to see how far the nearest tramstops are from Waverley or from the central bus station.

 

[Zoidberg]

It's open, but so far isn't working that well.
It's a combination of cars going where they're not supposed to (in particular, coming up from Queensferry Street, through the bus gate and turning right onto Lothian Road), and the lights being out of sync a lot of the time, though it's not as bad as it was the first weekend it was open, when it got so clogged up at one point that the lights were all turned off and the Police were directing traffic.

The problem is that the signage is crap, and there are plenty of cars drivers who quite happily ignore it all anyway, but this goes for the whole of the city centre.

I did wonder how well getting the various sets of traffic lights back into action and properly synchronised following reopenings would be in practice.

I recall that when they closed the east end of Princes Street to traffic to facilitate tram works, they did not do too well with implementing properly synchronised lights, with traffic severely delayed due to the ensuing chaos. I think that got the lights turned off in the early days with the junction being manually controlled.

 

[90019]

I did wonder how well getting the various sets of traffic lights back into action and properly synchronised following reopenings would be in practice.

A lot of the lights in the city are out of sync on a regular basis (Barnton coming from Maybury is one that springs to mind, along with South St David Street onto Princes Street, and plenty more), but very little is ever done about it.

During the festival last year, when they only shut part of George Street and sent everything down Frederick Street, along Queen Street and back up Hanover Street, it took over a week to change the timings on the junction at the bottom of Frederick Street which were causing near gridlock (my record was 24 minutes lost through that short section on a 36 during the first week).

 

[overthewater]

I took a quick look last week while waiting for my train from Waverley, and was disappointed to see how far the nearest tramstops are from Waverley or from the central bus station.

Tram spot nearly right out side the bus station entrance on St Andrews Square.

 

[edwin_m]

Tram spot nearly right out side the bus station entrance on St Andrews Square.

Ah, didn't realise you could get in that end as well, I only saw it off the side street of York Place about equidistant between two stops.

 

[chiltern trev]

I see fares have been published - http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/edinburgh-tram-airport-fare-1-more-than-bus-1-3098759.

Does anyone know what will happen to the 100 Airport bus when the trams start?

Capacities. Can anyone advise of the capacities:
tram - no of seats - no of wheelchair places - no of buggy places - luggage space (in terms of seats lost) - standing capacity - total passenger capacity.

And the same for the 100 Airport bus please.

 

[CallySleeper]

A lot of the lights in the city are out of sync on a regular basis (Barnton coming from Maybury is one that springs to mind, along with South St David Street onto Princes Street, and plenty more), but very little is ever done about it.

But why?! :cry:

I see fares have been published

This is utterly utterly utterly ridiculous. The final proof then that Edinburgh CC couldn't run a bath with a plug in it. Lost for words but I'm not surprised.

 

[tbtc]

Does anyone know what will happen to the 100 Airport bus when the trams start?

IIRC it was going down to every fifteen minutes, but that was on a list that included planned changes at the Leith end too (which obviously won't happen due to the tram not running there any time soon)

I see fares have been published - http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/edinburgh-tram-airport-fare-1-more-than-bus-1-3098759

This is utterly utterly utterly ridiculous. The final proof then that Edinburgh CC couldn't run a bath with a plug in it. Lost for words but I'm not surprised.

What's so amazing? That the tram fares next May (for city centre - airport) are more than the current bus fares (for city centre - airport)?

Did anyone expect the tram fares to be lower than the bus fares?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Did anyone expect the tram fares to be lower than the bus fares?

I always assumed (but it has been my assumption, and not based on any industry research) that the vast majority of airport passengers will be attracted primarily by the availability of the service (i.e. connections, frequency and hours of operation).

In contrast, passengers at intermediate stations will be price-sensitive, and competing services will be compared using several variables, including cost.

 

[tbtc]

I always assumed (but it has been my assumption, and not based on any industry research) that the vast majority of airport passengers will be attracted primarily by the availability of the service (i.e. connections, frequency and hours of operation).

In contrast, passengers at intermediate stations will be price-sensitive, and competing services will be compared using several variables, including cost.

Sounds reasonable.

I think that the tram is going to be the default for people flying in to Edinburgh - people arriving in a "new" city are unaware of where the buses go, where the buses stop etc - so jumping on a tram is the simple way into town (whether it costs an extra quid or takes an extra five minutes).

Those in areas like Broomhouse will know the routes/ times/ fares etc and be able to make a more sober judgement over what they'll want every day.

That's what happens in Sheffield (where tram fares are generally more than equivalent bus fares) - you see people unfamiliar with the local public transport (e.g. away fans heading to the Sheffield Wednesday ground, out-of-towners going to a gig at the Arena) jumping on the first tram that they find, rather than learning about where the local buses go.

 

[CallySleeper]

Did anyone expect the tram fares to be lower than the bus fares?

Flip the question on its head, should the tram fare to the airport be not the same but more expensive by £1 or 28%?

I always assumed (but it has been my assumption, and not based on any industry research) that the vast majority of airport passengers will be attracted primarily by the availability of the service (i.e. connections, frequency and hours of operation).

In contrast, passengers at intermediate stations will be price-sensitive, and competing services will be compared using several variables, including cost.

Connections - these are generally already available with the current airport bus services (especially 35 and 100). 35 runs as far as Ocean Terminal which obviously the tram doesn't
Frequency - not sure how frequent airport trams will be but 100 runs currently every eight minutes. 35 runs every twelve.
Hours of op - buses run to the airport 24/7 (100 runs 20 hours a day, 35 - 18, N22 out of hours.) As far as I know trams won't be running 24/7.

Not really sure how, with increased fares, this makes the tram so much more attractive, other than the initial novelty. The 100 is clearly advertised, and it is one of the first things you see walking out of the terminal building - one or two big blue buses parked up marked "City Centre".

Re intermediate passengers, not quite sure what you mean by 'price-sensitive'. This article claimed fares at these stations would be equal to the current bus fare, and under TfE the bus services running alongside would not effectively be in competition.

 

[tbtc]

Flip the question on its head, should the tram fare to the airport be not the same but more expensive by £1 or 28%?

People generally pay more to go by rail (train/ tram) than by bus - that sounds like a reasonable premium when you consider the difference between tram fares and bus fares elsewhere in the UK.

And that's assuming that the premium fares on the 100 won't increase between now and next May (or whenever the tram starts running from the Airport to the City Centre).

100 runs currently every eight minutes. 35 runs every twelve

Currently.

Am sure it won't be every eight minutes this time next year.

 

[CallySleeper]

People generally pay more to go by rail (train/ tram) than by bus - that sounds like a reasonable premium when you consider the difference between tram fares and bus fares elsewhere in the UK.

Actually, if my city is anything to go buy, the opposite applies. Local train or tram is actually cheaper, if anything the bus is at a premium. And no that's not to an airport or anywhere else which might demand such a premium.

For me, £4.50 to an airport so close to the city centre, outside of London is too much. Especially with the current bus price. At least it's not as bad as Glasgow.

Am sure it won't be every eight minutes this time next year.

Although, I can understand why to cut the Airlink service and raise its fares to force people onto the tram would make business sense.

 

[david16]

At least those coming all the way from the west by train intending to the airport no longer have to go all the way to Haymarket before travelling back west again on a bus having already seen a plane fly over them through the train window.

 

[St Rollox]

£6 single from Glasgow Buchanan St bus station to Glasgow Airport.
About 8 miles.
Is that good or bad?

 

[stut]

£6 single from Glasgow Buchanan St bus station to Glasgow Airport.
About 8 miles.
Is that good or bad?

Pretty poor, in my book, given a single from Gilmour Street to Central on the train is £3.20, and the bus what, £1.90? The only reason it's vaguely reasonable is that there's a sole taxi operator at the airport, so those fares are sky-high too!

 

[90019]

Rumours are the 12 will be cut so it only runs to the Gyle, like it used to, with a shuttle running between Ratho and Ingliston, giving people the choice of the 35 or the tram.
I wouldn't be particularly surprised if the X12 gets cut back either to Maybury, Gogarburn or to Ingliston without going into RBS.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It's so pleasing to see Shandwick place open to traffic again, with all (nearly all) the traffic maangement equipment cleared away:-


And the same at Haymarket:-

 

[Zoidberg]

It's so pleasing to see Shandwick place open to traffic again, with all (nearly all) the traffic maangement equipment cleared away:-

And the same at Haymarket:-

Indeed it is.

And today's Edinburgh Evening News tells of the overhead equipment going live over the whole route to allow test runs to take place.

From http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...ams-warning-as-power-cables-go-live-1-3170396

HUNDREDS of homes and businesses along Edinburgh’s tram route have been sent letters warning overhead power cables on the tram route are about to go live.

The missive warns any contact with the current-carrying-cables could lead to potentially fatal consequences.

Who'd have thought you'd need to tell folk not to come into contact with overhead cabling.

 

[90019]

And the same at Haymarket

Though the road layout through Haymarket is awful, with some spectacularly bad planning - such as only having a rank for 3 taxis outside the station.