Edinburgh Tram developments

Discussion in 'Other Public Transport' started by PaulLothian, 2 Aug 2012.

  1. kidman123

    kidman123 Member

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    And also it costs Lothian upto 350 per bus and trams now if you buy a tram return it costs 8.50 better value for money.
     
  2. 90019

    90019 Established Member

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    The return fare is £7.50 on the bus, and can be used on Airlink or Skylink.
     
  3. oldman

    oldman Member

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    All the airport routes are 4.50 single against 6.00 for the tram.
     
  4. MarkyT

    MarkyT Established Member

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    Airports are generally greenwashing scam artists. Despite any protestations to the contrary, they are addicted to their parking income so attempt as far as possible to discourage anyone arriving by public transport. That's the mindset from which this punitive premium fare for the last mile comes from. It was certainly not the most expensive mile of the tram system to build, across open fields with few utilities to move or developed land owners to compensate. I think you may be able to catch the long term parking bus shuttle from part way along the walking route from the P&R to the terminal. At least it's not as bad as some airports in the US, where there are no sidewalks provided deliberately on roads entering the complex so anyone found attempting to walk in or out can be arrested for jaywalking. I guess if you were black in some places over there you'd risk being shot in these circumstances. Back in Edinburgh, does anyone know if airport employees can get a reasonable fare to the airport.
     
  5. kidman123

    kidman123 Member

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    No they have to pay the same as normal Joe bloggs. As said the airport charges the trams and all bus a to use the airport as it's a premium zone. To me 6 pound is worth it in a rush hour when you go from Haymarket to airport to catch a flight as it is quicker and faster by tram than on a bus stuck in a que.
     
  6. A330Alex

    A330Alex Member

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    It's quite the business model - charging LB/ET £££ to bring your own passengers to you.
     
  7. MarkyT

    MarkyT Established Member

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    It would be interesting to find out what percentage of airport/airline/ancillary industry employees on the site use public transport to get to work. Do they have special staff busses? To me, the widespread use of these premium fares to access airports is a clear signal from the authorities that they're not interested at all in any mode shift or ecological issues. They should be challenged in these days of climate emergency.
     
  8. kidman123

    kidman123 Member

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    Yep that's the model
     
  9. kidman123

    kidman123 Member

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    As I said the trams or Lothian buses are not subsidised to go into the airport that's why the prices are dearer I'd folk don't like how it's done is they should complain to the airport.
    And for folk who complain about the price from p&r to airport or vice versa it's the same price regardless whether it's from York place to airport or p&r to airport.
    On the staff buses as far as I know that the Lothian and trams employees can use both buses and trams for free. Also the RBS bus for RBS staff.
     
    Last edited: 12 Oct 2019
  10. dcsprior

    dcsprior Member

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    If the airport charge the trams enough to come close to justifying the higher fare, then the trams project should really have purchased the land for the tram line before building on it (presumably it could've so compulsorily if needed). It would've saved them money in the long run and the initial cost would have been a drop in the ocean for the trams project.
     
  11. kidman123

    kidman123 Member

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    It's not the trams it's the airport forcing the higher price as they are not subsidised to go in to the airport. It's nothing about the trams buying land it's about the airport charges for transport that is not subsidised.
     
  12. takno

    takno Established Member

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    Given the parking and drop-off charges are also high, it's not like public transport is getting a uniquely bad deal in this. It's just another way to force customers to hand over a multiple of the landing charges in ancillary expenditure so that the owners can milk the airport for more than it's worth.

    Anybody bothered about the environment would be investing in getting the 4-hours to London trains running all day and knocking out some of the flights, and viewing it as the more ancillary fees air travelers have to pay the better. I fly quite often, but on most of those occasions it's because even with the bus prices it's still cheaper than the train.
     
  13. scotrail158713

    scotrail158713 Member

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    I think staff who use public transport to access their work buy a normal Ridacard as you’re able to use Skylink/Airlink/Tram to the Airport for no extra cost
     
  14. dcsprior

    dcsprior Member

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    If TFE own the line (and the platform area) themselves, then surely the airport can't charge TFE for running a vehicle owned by TFE on a line owned by TFE!
     
  15. takno

    takno Established Member

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    What makes you think tfe own the platform area?
     
  16. kidman123

    kidman123 Member

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    Tfe don't own the concourse and platforms at the airport they are owned by the airport
     
  17. dcsprior

    dcsprior Member

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    I didn't know whether they did or not, hence my use of the word "if"

    In that case I amend what I originally said (that the trans project was short-sighted for not buying the land the tram-line sits on) to instead say they were short-sighted for not buying the land the platform and concourse sits on!
     
  18. oldman

    oldman Member

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    I wonder how much land Edinburgh Trams actually does own. Is it all done by rights rather than ownership? I assume they don't own the middle of Princes Street, but what about the dedicated areas?

    It is speculated that the Airport charges a lot for bus and tram access, but does anyone know? Drop-off for a coach is 8.50 for 10 minutes, 11.50 for 20. I think if they charged a huge amount it would leak out, as their stated policy is encouraging public transport use. I suspect a lot of the premium fares are going to the operators.

    The problem for the tram is that they are expected to have an operating profit, but mostly they are tied to Lothian's low fares. They have some tram only tickets, but the airport is the one area where they can set their own fares. A while before they started running, they announced a higher fare for the Park and Ride, but that was dropped.
     
  19. dcsprior

    dcsprior Member

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    I know Edinburgh Trams / Transport for Edinburgh are owned by the council but not really part of the council... do they come within the scope of Freedom of Information requests?
     
  20. takno

    takno Established Member

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    Not sure. I would imagine that almost anything you'd be interested in would be covered by commercial confidentially exemptions anyway
     
  21. GusB

    GusB Established Member

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    They are subject to Freedom of Information requests:

    https://edinburghtrams.com/contact-us/freedom-of-information

     
  22. kylemore

    kylemore Member

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    An excellent case for a compulsory purchase order - one wonders why that hasn't happened already. Mind you with Edinburgh Council one is tempted to speculate as to who may be benefiting from this tawdry little arrangement by the airport and council to screw the paying punters.
     
  23. takno

    takno Established Member

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    That isnt how compulsory purchase works. For that matter it isn't how councils work. The airline industry is set up to shaft you six ways from Sunday and they will do anything to avoid just including the whole cost of the flight plus their profit in the ticket price. Given that First would willingly step in and run an airport shuttle instead, there is essentially nothing the council can do about it.
     
  24. kylemore

    kylemore Member

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    I'll bow to your superior knowledge and agree that the Airline/Airport industry are world class rogues!
     
  25. dcsprior

    dcsprior Member

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    I can't imagine a situation where HS2 gets built, including the purchase of the land to build the tracks, but they're run to stations on someone else's land resulting in a per-passenger fee having to be paid by the train company to the landowner (and therefore having to be added to ticket prices). Yet that's what people are saying on this thread happens with trams to the airport.

    If the entirety of the land used by the trams (i.e. the tracks, the platforms, the concourse area) is owned by TfE, I cannot see how the Airport would have any legal basis for charging TfE a premium to run to the airport.
    OR if the entirety of the land used by the trams (i.e. the tracks, the platforms, the concourse area) is not owned by TfE and this results in fees having to be paid, then there's surely an argument that the trams project should've purchased it.

    Alternatively, it could be that the airport don't charge TfE, and that the reason for the higher fares to the airport is simply that that's what the market is willing to pay, and TfE is subsidising it's regular travellers who live locally by charging more to airport travellers who likely are not their regular customers, or at least do not make that journey regularly (season tickets include the airport, so people working there will be mostly unaffected)
     
  26. oldman

    oldman Member

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    The Airport leases land to Edinburgh Trams (or possibly the Council) and it charges bus operators for access. The great unknown is how much that amounts to per passenger.
     
  27. takno

    takno Established Member

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    Compulsory purchase allows you to buy land to build on at a small premium on its current value. It works because the current value is usually relatively low, being farmland, wasteland or houses, and the value of what you are building is much higher, so you can afford to pay the going rate and more. It doesn't allow you to just steal land and pay what you like for it.

    If you wanted to buy land in order to change nothing about what is already there you'd struggle to get it through, and you'd still have to pay a small premium on the value of what you are buying. Since what you are buying is a chunk of very profitable airport terminal, you could expect that cost to be really very high. So high, in fact, that you'd have to keep the fares at least as high as they currently are just to cover the cost of the purchase. Even then, if the airport didn't like you they could just stick a fence between you land and theirs.
     
  28. Butts

    Butts Established Member

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    Perhaps it would have been easier to do before BAA was disbanded and all the Airports flogged off.
     
  29. Butts

    Butts Established Member

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    Possible Scam on the Edinburgh Tram ?????

    I quite often buy an online Adult Airport Open Return online from Edinburgh Ticket and print it out at home. You just have to enter your date of outward travel when purchasing it which appears on the downloaded voucher/ticket.

    On producing this on the Tram they used to exchange to for a Paper Open Return Ticket from one of their machines.

    However the last couple of times it has just been glanced at and not marked or scanned (it has a barcode) either on the outward or inward journey. As an open return is valid for a month it could potentially be reused .

    Is this a change of policy ? What are conductors supposed to do with this type of ticket ?
     
  30. UnderdogSW

    UnderdogSW New Member

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    It's still called SPRUCE and yes it's in operation in Edinburgh and most of West Yorkshire. RTIG signals used to be provided by Vix, then ACIS, now provided by Underdog Software.
     

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