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Edinburgh Tram developments

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Is there any indication of when Leith walk we reopen fully to bus services? Quite frankly this is getting tedious and tiresome now
As a student at the university, I don't think I've ever known Leith Walk *without* the closures. I suppose from my perspective when it finally reopens it'll seem like a jump in both tram and bus provision!
 
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takno

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As a student at the university, I don't think I've ever known Leith Walk *without* the closures. I suppose from my perspective when it finally reopens it'll seem like a jump in both tram and bus provision!
Between the trams (both times) and construction of the golden jobbie, there's barely been a full year in the last 15 when Leith walk has been fully open. It will be a momentous day for all of us
 

InOban

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I read a newspaper report from November which suggested that streets around the London Road area should have reopened by now, but the relocation and reconnection of the services had turned out to be even more challenging than expected and reopening is delayed until July.
 
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I read a newspaper report from November which suggested that streets around the London Road area should have reopened by now, but the relocation and reconnection of the services had turned out to be even more challenging than expected and reopening is delayed until July.
Now where have we heard that before?
:rolleyes:
 

daodao

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What every voter needs to remember is that today is not a referendum on Scottish independence, a judgement on how national government in which ever part of the country you live is doing or or a chance to yet again come out and support your favourite political party on party lines but instead this election is all about bin collections and potholes and how often your streets are cleaned and council houses maintained and if your local library is going to shut. Personally when I go to my polling place today I shall be doing absolutely everything possible within my power to remove the truly awful city council administration here in Edinburgh and ensure that whoever comes in next focuses on the priorities of people who still live here and also does not spend any more money than has already been committed on the White elephant that is the tram
I presume from this comment that there is still widespread vehement opposition to the Edinburgh tram scheme. Could locals confirm.
 

Elwyn

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I presume from this comment that there is still widespread vehement opposition to the Edinburgh tram scheme. Could locals confirm.
I live in Leith for part of the time. The preparation work has been an endless nightmare which everyone is sick of, but most of the people locally I know feel that when it finally opens it will be a real asset. (Some of them were against extending down to Leith & Newhaven because of the uncontrolled costs but have changed their views over the years).
 

takno

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I presume from this comment that there is still widespread vehement opposition to the Edinburgh tram scheme. Could locals confirm.
They're pretty popular with almost everybody I know. I'm not especially keen on them from a personal point of view, but I wouldn't call them a white elephant
 

318259

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As someone who uses the trams when I'm in Edinburgh, and grew up living in Germany where most cities have a tram system, it's great. The fact that there's a massive free car park at Ingleston right next to the motorway and you can jump straight on the tram is fantastic.

Cancelling the trams now or refusing to extend the network further is totally the wrong thing to do. Building the core route through the city centre is disruptive, but you really only have to go through it once. After that, you just connect more lines at the edge of the city centre to increase coverage. Cancelling it now means Edinburgh went through years of city centre closures for the least possible benefit.
 

fgwrich

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As someone who uses the trams when I'm in Edinburgh, and grew up living in Germany where most cities have a tram system, it's great. The fact that there's a massive free car park at Ingleston right next to the motorway and you can jump straight on the tram is fantastic.

Cancelling the trams now or refusing to extend the network further is totally the wrong thing to do. Building the core route through the city centre is disruptive, but you really only have to go through it once. After that, you just connect more lines at the edge of the city centre to increase coverage. Cancelling it now means Edinburgh went through years of city centre closures for the least possible benefit.
Exactly this. See Birmingham for a reason why it isn't a good idea to just build 1 line and hold off any expansion for future years to come.
 
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Cancelling the trams now or refusing to extend the network further is totally the wrong thing to do. Building the core route through the city centre is disruptive, but you really only have to go through it once. After that, you just connect more lines at the edge of the city centre to increase coverage. Cancelling it now means Edinburgh went through years of city centre closures for the least possible benefit.
I agree that cancelling it now is the wrong thing to do, but much, much more could/should have been done to minimize disruption. For example Leith Walk could have been made bus-only, instead of the buses constantly having to divert up Easter Road because of the congestion.

I'm also not entirely agreeing with the "you only have to go through [the disruption of building it] once"; the section on Princes Street isn't being changed for the current extension but is still constantly closed for maintenance (as in, whole sections of Princes Street and whole junctions are regularly closed to all traffic to allow tram maintenance).
Just looking at the app right now, you've got:
7/10/11/14/16 - Temporary/zero-notice short-term emergency diversion away from York Place due to tram works
5/7/10/11/14/16/19/25/49/N14 - Planned long-term diversion away from York Place due to tram works
24 - Planned short-term diversion away from Princes Street due to tram works
7/10/11/14/16/22/25/34/35/36/49/200/N14/N16/N22 - Planned long-term diversion away from Ocean Terminal due to tram works
8 - Planned long-term diversion away from Broughton Street due to tram works
26/44 - Planned long-term diversion away from York Place due to tram works


I also don't see much benefit of running trams on-road down Leith Walk against alternative technologies - it's on-road, so there's no speed benefit; it's on-road, so it still suffers and causes congestion; it uses rails, so causes huge amounts of disruption during construction and is very inflexible in general.
 

och aye

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I agree with @Elwyn and @takno the palpapal and justified anger of the original construction 10 years ago has significantly dissipated. Of course you'll have people who will still complain (I usually find taxi drivers who are incandescent with rage if you mention the dreaded "T" word) and some business owners and residents who live along the construction route, but by in large most people don't appear to have too much of an issue other than having to find alternative routes to get to some parts to/out of Leith and Newhaven. I think this is largely due to the construction works going generally quite well and on budget. Ironically the biggest moan people seem to be having isn't the trams but the wonky cycle lanes on Leith Walk.


1651759759756.png
 

the sniper

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I also don't see much benefit of running trams on-road down Leith Walk against alternative technologies - it's on-road, so there's no speed benefit; it's on-road, so it still suffers and causes congestion; it uses rails, so causes huge amounts of disruption during construction and is very inflexible in general.

If the extent of the system was just the length of the Leith Walk, that'd be a reasonable point.
 

InOban

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I agree that cancelling it now is the wrong thing to do, but much, much more could/should have been done to minimize disruption. For example Leith Walk could have been made bus-only, instead of the buses constantly having to divert up Easter Road because of the congestion.

I'm also not entirely agreeing with the "you only have to go through [the disruption of building it] once"; the section on Princes Street isn't being changed for the current extension but is still constantly closed for maintenance (as in, whole sections of Princes Street and whole junctions are regularly closed to all traffic to allow tram maintenance).
Just looking at the app right now, you've got:
7/10/11/14/16 - Temporary/zero-notice short-term emergency diversion away from York Place due to tram works
5/7/10/11/14/16/19/25/49/N14 - Planned long-term diversion away from York Place due to tram works
24 - Planned short-term diversion away from Princes Street due to tram works
7/10/11/14/16/22/25/34/35/36/49/200/N14/N16/N22 - Planned long-term diversion away from Ocean Terminal due to tram works
8 - Planned long-term diversion away from Broughton Street due to tram works
26/44 - Planned long-term diversion away from York Place due to tram works


I also don't see much benefit of running trams on-road down Leith Walk against alternative technologies - it's on-road, so there's no speed benefit; it's on-road, so it still suffers and causes congestion; it uses rails, so causes huge amounts of disruption during construction and is very inflexible in general.
If you follow the regular updates on Trams to Newhaven you will see that the project is very much entering the home straight. These long-term diversions won't last that long.
The short-term issue on Princes Street is because there have been cracks in the concrete trackbed. This is being repaired under guarantee by the original contractor.
 

VioletEclipse

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Ironically the biggest moan people seem to be having isn't the trams but the wonky cycle lanes on Leith Walk.
For a good reason too, they're unnecessarily narrow and wonky which could well be unsafe and cause conflicts. The construction is annoying to deal with but from what I've heard most people are just looking forward to when they'll finally get trams on Leith Walk.
 

Elwyn

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If I have understood the updates correctly, some test running on the extension to Newhaven is due to start towards the end of this year. In order to do that, I assume that most of the safety fencing will have been removed and roads re-opened to traffic. Even though it might be a further 6 months before passengers can use the trams, getting the roads re-opened free of construction clutter, plus the end of all the bus diversions will in itself be a great step forward.

So there is light at the end of the tunnel, unless you are a cyclist evidently.
 

duncanp

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Exactly this. See Birmingham for a reason why it isn't a good idea to just build 1 line and hold off any expansion for future years to come.

Birmingham is playing catch up, as there are now four extensions under construction
  • Along Broad Street to Edgbaston Village (NB nowhere near the cricket ground)
  • To Wolverhampton Station
  • To Dudley and Merry Hill
  • To Digbeth
Now all they need is some trams that don't fall to bits as soon as they start moving.

No service across the entire network since March 19th. <(<(<(<(
 

fgwrich

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Birmingham is playing catch up, as there are now four extensions under construction
  • Along Broad Street to Edgbaston Village (NB nowhere near the cricket ground)
  • To Wolverhampton Station
  • To Dudley and Merry Hill
  • To Digbeth
Now all they need is some trams that don't fall to bits as soon as they start moving.

No service across the entire network since March 19th. <(<(<(<(
Indeed, but it's only taken Birmingham 20 or so years to finally start to play catchup though. That said, we are of course seeing the construction of the first branch off of the former GWR route and the so called "Line 1" (Dudley / Brierley Hill). At least the extension within Birmingham City Centre taking the line down to Grannd Central made the line a little more useful and easier to use - when it runs!

We can only hope that, with lessons learned from Phase 1 (and the Newhaven extension), along with those from the Midland Metro, any future council won't be deterred from expanding the current line into some form of Network for Edinburgh.
 

duncanp

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Indeed, but it's only taken Birmingham 20 or so years to finally start to play catchup though. That said, we are of course seeing the construction of the first branch off of the former GWR route and the so called "Line 1" (Dudley / Brierley Hill). At least the extension within Birmingham City Centre taking the line down to Grannd Central made the line a little more useful and easier to use - when it runs!

We can only hope that, with lessons learned from Phase 1 (and the Newhaven extension), along with those from the Midland Metro, any future council won't be deterred from expanding the current line into some form of Network for Edinburgh.

I think the Edinburgh system will expand over the next 5 - 10 years.

You only have to look at how the Manchester system has grown, the success of the extensions in the South of Nottingham, some 10 years after the system was first opened.

In Edinburgh, a branch off the current line to serve the Hermiston Park & Ride and Heriot-Watt University would be useful, as would a line to serve the Royal Infirmary.
 

overthewater

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It's very unlikely stage 3 AKA the link to the Royal Infirmary will get built anytime soon. However I think phrase 1c could get completed AKA the loop from Haymarket - Craigleith - Newhaven is the most likely outcome. If the tram can't start making a profit again I doubt anything will be done to expand it.
 

tailori

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I'm actually quite optimistic about extensions to the network.

The SNP's 2022 council manifesto made a commitment to progress specific plans for one or two (depending on how you look at it) extensions: north to Granton, and south to the Royal Infirmary. Both of their potential partners in the new administration (the Greens or Labour) also made commitments to expand the network, though Labour's wording was much more cautious. The business plan for the extension is already in development and has been for some time.

Given both the SNP and the Greens are also in government at Holyrood, I don't think either party would have made those commitments at local level if they weren't confident it aligned with national priorities. An Edinburgh mass transit network is one of the key interventions selected in the draft STPR2 report.

Obviously you never know with these things until it actually happens, but if it doesn't happen, it'll mean there's been a big and unexpected policy shift both at national and local level.
 

eoff

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Sorry if this is covered in the last 46 pages but is there a good map of what the Edinburgh transport system used to be like — perhaps in the 1940s?
 

daodao

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Ex-controller

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I agree with the points that abandoning the Edinburgh tram extension now would see the most disruption for least benefit, but it’d be a brave politician that opted for further extensions for the foreseeable.

The view among many Edinburgh folk is that the trams, just like the festival and similar aspects of the city’s tourism industry, is pointedly not about them. The fact that the route includes the airport (visitors) - Ingliston P&R (visitors/out of city commuters) - city centre - Leith (gentrification) - Newhaven (Scottish Government/office developments) is not lost on those who live in Wester Hailes, Craigmillar, Silverknowes etc, all deprived communities for whom the prospect of a tram connection to the city centre is both way off and would likely be rejected even if it was offered.

The attitude towards the trams isn’t just about the trams themselves, but the fact that like many tourist destinations, Edinburgh is a two tier city where the local population feel like an unwanted inconvenience. The original tram works and subsequent extension are largely seen against this backdrop. It’d be great if it was different, but Edinburgh isn’t Nottingham or Birmingham. The population there (rightly or wrongly) are fed up of the city’s entire status and its impact on them, and the tram development has suffered off the back of it.
 

tailori

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I agree with the points that abandoning the Edinburgh tram extension now would see the most disruption for least benefit, but it’d be a brave politician that opted for further extensions for the foreseeable.
I'm not sure this is true. While there was a lot of resistance to the trams initially, I'd say the prevailing attitude now is "well, if we're going to have trams, let's at least do it properly and build a proper network". The SNP included extension plans in their council manifesto and performed well, as did Labour and the Greens, both of whom also indicated support for extensions in their manifestos.

The view among many Edinburgh folk is that the trams, just like the festival and similar aspects of the city’s tourism industry, is pointedly not about them. The fact that the route includes the airport [...] is not lost on those who live in Wester Hailes, Craigmillar, Silverknowes etc, all deprived communities for whom the prospect of a tram connection to the city centre is both way off and would likely be rejected even if it was offered.
That's probably a fair characterisation, but the next extension (Granton to the Royal Infirmary) will play a big role in addressing that if it goes ahead, which I think (and hope) it will. A lot of work has already been done behind the scenes in preparation for this, and the business case is already being worked on. The line will serve several deprived areas (or provide scope to serve them in future) and this is one of the reasons it scored very highly and is being prioritised.
 

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