Edinburgh Tram developments

[Falcon1200]

Wow that's absolutely nuts! How are you supposed to cycle along that?

It's unlikely I will ever be cycling in Edinburgh, but if I was I think I would just go straight on over the kink, I don't see anything physically preventing that ?

 

[NotATrainspott]

I agree with the points that abandoning the Edinburgh tram extension now would see the most disruption for least benefit, but it’d be a brave politician that opted for further extensions for the foreseeable.

The view among many Edinburgh folk is that the trams, just like the festival and similar aspects of the city’s tourism industry, is pointedly not about them. The fact that the route includes the airport (visitors) - Ingliston P&R (visitors/out of city commuters) - city centre - Leith (gentrification) - Newhaven (Scottish Government/office developments) is not lost on those who live in Wester Hailes, Craigmillar, Silverknowes etc, all deprived communities for whom the prospect of a tram connection to the city centre is both way off and would likely be rejected even if it was offered.

The attitude towards the trams isn’t just about the trams themselves, but the fact that like many tourist destinations, Edinburgh is a two tier city where the local population feel like an unwanted inconvenience. The original tram works and subsequent extension are largely seen against this backdrop. It’d be great if it was different, but Edinburgh isn’t Nottingham or Birmingham. The population there (rightly or wrongly) are fed up of the city’s entire status and its impact on them, and the tram development has suffered off the back of it.

Shock as the tram focuses on serving areas of future growth. Craigmillar was going to be on Line 3 but I'm not sure what the most recent plans are for the line continuing past Cameron Toll. Otherwise, areas like Wester Hailes and Silverknowes are generally fully developed. Building the tram there won't unlock more housing unless fairly large swathes of existing housing are demolished to make room. The existing population density in these areas isn't high enough to justify the tram when bus routes work fine. This isn't even a social class issue: Morningside is very dense but it won't be getting a tram any time soon because it's fully developed at higher density and the bus seems to work just fine.

Edinburgh has an excellent bus service. The core of every urban transport network is the bus. Higher intensity modes like trams, metros and trains are useful but only really sustainable with a solid bus network foundation beneath. Buses are what enables the density which then makes the higher intensity modes economically viable. So, not having a tram connection is not the end of the world so long as the bus service is good, and the tram doesn't get rid of the need for buses. On specific route corridors, yes, but not in general across the city. All the extra housing density that the tram enables in growth areas like Leith produces passengers who need to travel in other directions occasionally. Once the Salamander Street area is developed we'll probably see new/re-established bus routes along the coast linking Portobello (another growth area) with Leith and Granton. Once Granton and the IBG area around the airport are developed, we'll see more demand for bus services between them and running via areas like Silverknowes. The Edinburgh Park/IBG developments will drive bus services down to Wester Hailes and other communities near the bypass. The people of Craigentinny, Silverknowes or Wester Hailes might not see trams nearby but they will definitely benefit from second-order effects.

Long-lasting improvements to quality of life can only come from economic efficiency. Densifying important areas around the city is the best thing we can do for areas like Wester Hailes. A densified Leith is one that can provide a lot of relatively affordable housing (even if rents are higher, wages tend to be higher while energy and transport costs are lower in denser areas) allowing young people from Silverknowes a better chance at staying in the city and near their friends and relatives. Denser areas produce better jobs, improving the economy and providing more opportunity for everyone else. All those jobs in the IBG, even just working in a shop or cafe/restaurant, will be available to people from Wester Hailes and the density means it'll just be a short and affordable bus ride away.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Whilst there is a lot of truth in this post above, it completely ignores one key point. Young people or older people or indeed people in general have no wish to stay in Edinburgh anymore, the locals are blatantly ignored and unless there is a dramatic policy shift after the local elections which I somehow doubt we will continue to be ignored and become further so. Nothing in Edinburgh is attractive to people living here unless you particularly enjoy the festivals or the tourism side. Or more to the point if you make money out of them. Apart from that it isn't slow, noisy, expensive and generally unpleasant sahida living where those of us who live here for years feel increasingly alienated and there is a reason for so many leaving. That reason is playing to see if you look hard enough but the point is that people just don't wish to look

 

[devon_metro]

It's unlikely I will ever be cycling in Edinburgh, but if I was I think I would just go straight on over the kink, I don't see anything physically preventing that ?

The kerb stones at the edge of the cycle lanes have a slight lip. Enough to go flying if on skinny tyres and it's wet if you take it at an angle that isn't 90 degrees. The angle of the kink would certaintly encourage that.

 

[InOban]

Whilst there is a lot of truth in this post above, it completely ignores one key point. Young people or older people or indeed people in general have no wish to stay in Edinburgh anymore, the locals are blatantly ignored and unless there is a dramatic policy shift after the local elections which I somehow doubt we will continue to be ignored and become further so. Nothing in Edinburgh is attractive to people living here unless you particularly enjoy the festivals or the tourism side. Or more to the point if you make money out of them. Apart from that it isn't slow, noisy, expensive and generally unpleasant sahida living where those of us who live here for years feel increasingly alienated and there is a reason for so many leaving. That reason is playing to see if you look hard enough but the point is that people just don't wish to look

That must be why the population is rising !

 

[NotATrainspott]

Whilst there is a lot of truth in this post above, it completely ignores one key point. Young people or older people or indeed people in general have no wish to stay in Edinburgh anymore, the locals are blatantly ignored and unless there is a dramatic policy shift after the local elections which I somehow doubt we will continue to be ignored and become further so. Nothing in Edinburgh is attractive to people living here unless you particularly enjoy the festivals or the tourism side. Or more to the point if you make money out of them. Apart from that it isn't slow, noisy, expensive and generally unpleasant sahida living where those of us who live here for years feel increasingly alienated and there is a reason for so many leaving. That reason is playing to see if you look hard enough but the point is that people just don't wish to look

Ah yes, people don't want to stay in a city any more when that city is expecting and seeing increases in population!

Where are people going to go instead? Going out to the suburbs and exurbs isn't going to be as popular any more when jobs and opportunities are concentrated in cities (because that is natural for human development). Suburbs and exurbs are only really popular insofar as they have good connections to core urban areas anyway. People move to Livingston not because the shopping centre is great but because they know they're only a short drive or train ride away from Edinburgh, while they get a chance to have a two-car detached home lifestyle at a lower cost. Places without good connections to cities tend to be economic basket cases which fight over saviour schemes like rail links (Borders, Levenmouth etc).

What we are learning the hard way is that there are economic tradeoffs involved here and the story isn't necessarily good. A terraced house or flat in a denser area of Edinburgh might be more expensive to buy, but life there can be more economical overall. The more detached your home is, the greater its external surface area and so the harder it will always be to keep it warm in a time of ever-higher energy prices. Life where you don't have a mini supermarket 5 minutes' walk away and a big shop 10 minutes' walk away is one where you're stuck owning an expensive car whether you want to or not.

There are problems in the city in the Old Town especially due to the rise of tourism. Clamping down on illegal conversions of residential properties to commercial short-term lets is pretty critical. Other than that though, having a thriving tourism market is not a problem when it brings in money and jobs for people who might otherwise struggle to find professional employment. It's fine and all having lots of technical jobs in a city, and these do bring in subsequent jobs in service industries (e.g. the cafe worker serving the office workers at lunch) but not everyone will be able to do this. If we can continue to provide more housing to meet demand, then people won't generally experience hardship.

 

[the sniper]

Whilst there is a lot of truth in this post above, it completely ignores one key point. Young people or older people or indeed people in general have no wish to stay in Edinburgh anymore, the locals are blatantly ignored and unless there is a dramatic policy shift after the local elections which I somehow doubt we will continue to be ignored and become further so. Nothing in Edinburgh is attractive to people living here unless you particularly enjoy the festivals or the tourism side. Or more to the point if you make money out of them. Apart from that it isn't slow, noisy, expensive and generally unpleasant sahida living where those of us who live here for years feel increasingly alienated and there is a reason for so many leaving. That reason is playing to see if you look hard enough but the point is that people just don't wish to look

Gosh, imagine living somewhere so good people actually want to move there. Awful, I imagine.

 

[Mordac]

Gosh, imagine living somewhere so good people actually want to move there. Awful, I imagine.

No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded.

 

[Falcon1200]

The kerb stones at the edge of the cycle lanes have a slight lip. Enough to go flying if on skinny tyres and it's wet if you take it at an angle that isn't 90 degrees. The angle of the kink would certaintly encourage that.

Thanks, I can see cyclists being caught out by that, which makes the design seem even more daft.

 

[och aye]

Wow that's absolutely nuts! How are you supposed to cycle along that?

Hence the outcry in the local papers. Apparently the contractors are going to make remedial changes at their cost.

New time-lapse video from the project team:

 

[SteveP29]

It's very unlikely stage 3 AKA the link to the Royal Infirmary will get built anytime soon. However I think phrase 1c could get completed AKA the loop from Haymarket - Craigleith - Newhaven is the most likely outcome. If the tram can't start making a profit again I doubt anything will be done to expand it.

I'm not sure this is true. While there was a lot of resistance to the trams initially, I'd say the prevailing attitude now is "well, if we're going to have trams, let's at least do it properly and build a proper network". The SNP included extension plans in their council manifesto and performed well, as did Labour and the Greens, both of whom also indicated support for extensions in their manifestos.


That's probably a fair characterisation, but the next extension (Granton to the Royal Infirmary) will play a big role in addressing that if it goes ahead, which I think (and hope) it will. A lot of work has already been done behind the scenes in preparation for this, and the business case is already being worked on. The line will serve several deprived areas (or provide scope to serve them in future) and this is one of the reasons it scored very highly and is being prioritised.

From a selfish point of view, the Granton extension will be a massive boost for me.
We moved to Granton Harbour from Gorgie in July last year, my commute to work in Southside has now been increased by 20 minutes door to door, it now takes me an hour from leaving the house to getting to the office (and back)
The extension from Granton via Roseburn will likely cut my journey time back to what it was from Gorgie to Southside.

I do think though, that by the time it is constructed, I'll have probably moved on or, as I'm 50 later this year, I may have retired (I stress MAY, there's no guarantees I can afford to) so wouldn't need the tram system for anything other than leisure.

 

[InOban]

The difficulties of installing a tram network in an old, indeed mediaeval settlement like Leith is exemplified by the following quote from today's short-notice traffic alterations in the Trams to Newhaven site:

The discovery of sections of sea wall along with old tram tracks in the area has required works to temporarily halt to allow the archaeology team to assess the findings. In addition, despite pre-construction surveys having been carried out, the volume and complexities of the utilities that have been uncovered requires further investigation with utility providers.

 

[och aye]

The difficulties of installing a tram network in an old, indeed mediaeval settlement like Leith is exemplified by the following quote from today's short-notice traffic alterations in the Trams to Newhaven site:

The discovery of sections of sea wall along with old tram tracks in the area has required works to temporarily halt to allow the archaeology team to assess the findings. In addition, despite pre-construction surveys having been carried out, the volume and complexities of the utilities that have been uncovered requires further investigation with utility providers.

Or human remains!

More new images from the Council/contractor:

https://twitter.com/TramstoNewhaven/status/1527592361278177281

Elm Row:


Leith Walk:


Constitution Street:


Ocean Drive:

 

[A330Alex]

Trams to Newhaven Construction Update (Summer 2022)

 

[mrmartin]

Is there any plans for future lines (eg the line to Granton?). It's been a while since I lived in Edinburgh; but I remember at the time that was thought of as an 'easy' extension to do as it was mostly off road and therefore had less utility diversions to do?

 

[AngusH]

Various schemes have been put forward. I'm not sure there's much more than ideas yet:

Huge tram extension planned for Edinburgh

Plans show a north/south line, running from Granton Harbour and down to either Roseburn or Shandwick Place.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[windingroad]

Is there any plans for future lines (eg the line to Granton?). It's been a while since I lived in Edinburgh; but I remember at the time that was thought of as an 'easy' extension to do as it was mostly off road and therefore had less utility diversions to do?

A business case is currently in development for a future line between Granton and the Royal Infirmary and I believe passive provision for this has been included in the repairs for North Bridge. Tram extensions have also been included in the Scottish Government's draft STPR2 (Strategic Transport Projects Review 2) report, so there's also support there at a national level.

Having said all that, the Granton line was only in the SNP's council manifesto and they're no longer part of the administration, so who knows whether it'll go ahead.

 

[takno]

A business case is currently in development for a future line between Granton and the Royal Infirmary and I believe passive provision for this has been included in the repairs for North Bridge. Tram extensions have also been included in the Scottish Government's draft STPR2 (Strategic Transport Projects Review 2) report, so there's also support there at a national level.

Having said all that, the Granton line was only in the SNP's council manifesto and they're no longer part of the administration, so who knows whether it'll go ahead.

With all council finances in the state they're in, and Lothian Buses being unlikely to be much of a cash cow for the next couple of years, they'd need pretty 100% government support including guarantees for overruns.

Realistically I wouldn't have expected shovels in the ground for 4 years anyway, given the amount of planning required,l. It's still beyond me how they hope to fit the line plus stations through South bridge and Newington anyway - it's much narrower than Leith Walk, and far more of the businesses only have loading access from the main carriageway

 

[windingroad]

With all council finances in the state they're in, and Lothian Buses being unlikely to be much of a cash cow for the next couple of years, they'd need pretty 100% government support including guarantees for overruns.

I think it will depend how much spending has been (or will be) allocated for the interventions recommended by STPR2. The Scottish Government obviously also has funding challenges, but I haven't paid enough attention to know how much capital spending has been ringfenced.

It would be a shame though if there was a significant delay in building another line, as a proper network is essential to realising the full potential of the tram as a mode.

 

[Mal]

A business case is currently in development for a future line between Granton and the Royal Infirmary and I believe passive provision for this has been included in the repairs for North Bridge. Tram extensions have also been included in the Scottish Government's draft STPR2 (Strategic Transport Projects Review 2) report, so there's also support there at a national level.

Having said all that, the Granton line was only in the SNP's council manifesto and they're no longer part of the administration, so who knows whether it'll go ahead.

It's just a thought, but would it not be an idea to lay tram lines down North Bridge while it is closed to traffic?

It's still beyond me how they hope to fit the line plus stations through South bridge and Newington anyway - it's much narrower than Leith Walk, and far more of the businesses only have loading access from the main carriageway

I agree! From North Bridge to Cameron Toll is about twice the distance of The Walk and the outcry from businesses would be horrific. As an exiled Edinburgher, I follow the news of the city and get back home as much as possible, and though I would love to see trams down Newington again, realistically, I can't see it happening.

 

[takno]

I agree! From North Bridge to Cameron Toll is about twice the distance of The Walk and the outcry from businesses would be horrific. As an exiled Edinburgher, I follow the news of the city and get back home as much as possible, and though I would love to see trams down Newington again, realistically, I can't see it happening.

To be fair it's just about doable from about St Patrick's Square onwards, and probably fairly easy from Minto Street onwards. The disruption from building doesn't bear thinking about but isn't the biggest issue for me. It's more trying to figure out how you fit tram tracks and stations down a narrow corridor that's already uncomfortably filled with pedestrians and deliveries to dozens of shops and hundreds of flats, most of which have no alternative rear access. At it's widest it's as narrow as the narrowest parts of Leith Walk, and the buildings which hem it in are larger.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Any tram route to Cameron toll and the royal is going to have to be tunnels or elevated above street level. That is the be all and end all of it I think. Yes you could remove everything but deliveries and perhaps taxi and private hire from the roads but the question would then be where would you put all the rest of that traffic and and I think the compensation bill for both the build and long-term inconvenience to businesses and residents, assuming we have any left by then would be so high that it simply wouldn't pass scrutiny at many levels

 

[takno]

Any tram route to Cameron toll and the royal is going to have to be tunnels or elevated above street level. That is the be all and end all of it I think. Yes you could remove everything but deliveries and perhaps taxi and private hire from the roads but the question would then be where would you put all the rest of that traffic and and I think the compensation bill for both the build and long-term inconvenience to businesses and residents, assuming we have any left by then would be so high that it simply wouldn't pass scrutiny at many levels

I think up Lothian Road and around the Meadows is a more workable route. I'd probably do that with either a terminus or just a reversing stop on either Waverley bridge or by Waverley steps.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Whichever route you take the requirement to connect into the existing route so trams can go either to the airport or reverse and go to Newhaven would be highly desirable I should think.


Not sure what sort of reception you get if you suggested running trams round or through the meadows however

 

[takno]

Whichever route you take the requirement to connect into the existing route so trams can go either to the airport or reverse and go to Newhaven would be highly desirable I should think.


Not sure what sort of reception you get if you suggested running trams round or through the meadows however

I was thinking on the existing road, possibly with a dedicated tram/bus lane for the last bit into town. I reckon the land-take for that could be zero at a push. The alternative is probably to run up Lauriston place, which is good for the uni, but is another fairly narrow road where trams would have to directly share with all traffic rather than being in a dedicated bus lane

 

[windingroad]

Whichever route you take the requirement to connect into the existing route so trams can go either to the airport or reverse and go to Newhaven would be highly desirable I should think.

The preliminary plans do just that, although no reversal would be required for Newhaven as there's provision for a standalone link down Leith Street. Whether or not that remains the case is obviously an open question!

 

[EllieAquitrain]

I wonder if a one-way system for the tram could be workable through Newington? You have St Leonard's Street/Dalkeith Road and Causewayside running parallel to the main road on either side.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Any tram route to Cameron toll and the royal is going to have to be tunnels or elevated above street level. That is the be all and end all of it I think. Yes you could remove everything but deliveries and perhaps taxi and private hire from the roads but the question would then be where would you put all the rest of that traffic and and I think the compensation bill for both the build and long-term inconvenience to businesses and residents, assuming we have any left by then would be so high that it simply wouldn't pass scrutiny at many levels

No, it'll be a tram running down the middle of the street. The rest of the traffic will evaporate once it is made sufficiently difficult for people to do it. Making it easy for a couple of people to do essential journeys across the city centre means making it easy for hundreds or thousands of unnecessary journeys, while those on foot, bikes or public transport suffer regardless of how essential their journeys are.

The Line 3 route down to Cameron Toll has a road on either side which can be used instead for any remaining traffic. Since there are plenty of connecting roads between them, most servicing can be moved around the corner and off the tram route.

 

[SteveP29]

I was thinking on the existing road, possibly with a dedicated tram/bus lane for the last bit into town. I reckon the land-take for that could be zero at a push. The alternative is probably to run up Lauriston place, which is good for the uni, but is another fairly narrow road where trams would have to directly share with all traffic rather than being in a dedicated bus lane

I think Lauriston Place route would be made even more difficult if the council get their wish to pedestrianise Forrest Road, that would mean traffic being two way past Doctors pub and Hewats shop (most prominent examples I can think of to illustrate) and then there's the fact that the old hospital STILL isn't complete, its been ongoing since before I moved up here 11 years ago, so I couldn't see any work on the road starting till after that's done.

 

[takno]

I think Lauriston Place route would be made even more difficult if the council get their wish to pedestrianise Forrest Road, that would mean traffic being two way past Doctors pub and Hewats shop (most prominent examples I can think of to illustrate) and then there's the fact that the old hospital STILL isn't complete, its been ongoing since before I moved up here 11 years ago, so I couldn't see any work on the road starting till after that's done.

The old hospital is nearly done. I think they'd pretty much have to make the road two way past Hewatts if they did the trams anyway, which would be fine since it's pretty much at its widest around there.