Possible plans for Edinburgh Waverley station?

[Siemens Trains]

I don't think platform space is the primary issue but rather the approach in from the west, which the Dalmeny Chord can only fix for so long. Tracks above the current level wouldn't be possible due to the National Galleries directly to the west. Tunneling under the current lines is really the only option unless you go for a completely new station and alignment.

Is the gallery building really a constraint at its south end? I've sometimes wondered if there is potential to put another east-west tunnel through The Mound but further up the hill. Therefore you'd have five or six parallel tracks running below the gallery. Not sure exactly how much that would gain you in terms of capacity.
I'd agree that platform space doesn't seem too bad at the moment - they managed without platforms 5 and 6 for quite a long time after all. The Caledonian Sleeper loco appears to hang around in the station all day, too. Surely the line at platform 10 would be used for someting a bit more useful if space was truly at a premium.
Actually, platform 0 at Haymarket isn't pressed into service terribly often either, so the west approach may not be so busy as people sometimes assume.

 

[big all]

i personally think a tunnel from somwhere around haymarket station perhaps additionally stations at lothian road [old princess street station]

then perhaps a station near the bandstand and another between waverly and saint andrews bus station assuming it still exists??
the route would be running under princess street the garden and waverly market area and as a metro rising towards medowbank and portobello as seperate running lines and possibly st leaonards towards the sub or south side

then as you will be perhaps a bit below station level at waverly an over platform concourse at the new sub station will perhaps give a good easy via escelators rise in the old removed up and down carrage road areas

 

[neil henderson]

Is the gallery building really a constraint at its south end? I've sometimes wondered if there is potential to put another east-west tunnel through The Mound but further up the hill. Therefore you'd have five or six parallel tracks running below the gallery. Not sure exactly how much that would gain you in terms of capacity.

It's probably technically possible but the citizens of Edinburgh would go mad about the loss of more of Princes street gardens and it would need tunnelling close to the base of the castle rock which I can't see being approved today.

 

[route101]

i personally think a tunnel from somwhere around haymarket station perhaps additionally stations at lothian road [old princess street station]

then perhaps a station near the bandstand and another between waverly and saint andrews bus station assuming it still exists??
the route would be running under princess street the garden and waverly market area and as a metro rising towards medowbank and portobello as seperate running lines and possibly st leaonards towards the sub or south side

then as you will be perhaps a bit below station level at waverly an over platform concourse at the new sub station will perhaps give a good easy via escelators rise in the old removed up and down carrage road areas

Its not Princess street!

 

[13h202]

i personally think a tunnel from somwhere around haymarket station perhaps additionally stations at lothian road [old princess street station]

then perhaps a station near the bandstand and another between waverly and saint andrews bus station assuming it still exists??
the route would be running under PRINCES street the garden and waverly market area and as a metro rising towards medowbank and portobello as seperate running lines and possibly st leaonards towards the sub or south side

then as you will be perhaps a bit below station level at waverly an over platform concourse at the new sub station will perhaps give a good easy via escelators rise in the old removed up and down carrage road areas

I think that idea would have to be part of a separate metro network rather than part of the mainline rail network. I still feel that a proper underground metro is on the cards for Edinburgh, in addition to the trams. There's a good metro map for Edinburgh on CityMetric which sort of follows your idea.

 

[13h202]

Surely the line at platform 10 would be used for someting a bit more useful if space was truly at a premium.

I heard somewhere, quite a while ago albeit, that they want to use it but access is too difficult at the moment with the only way up being the current access on Platform 10. If the mezzanine level is added as in the draft masterplan, I can see them deciding to use it. Now 5/6 is in, it's probably the largest wasted space in the station.

 

[d9009alycidon]

It is worth remembering that Edinburgh is a relatively small city, Leicester is about the same (depending on what list you consult) and has no trams and one railway station (two if you could Syston on the outskirts). The brains trust that runs Edinburgh also has a history of wasting vast amounts of money on transport schemes that come to nothing, and the one that did cost a wee bit more than they budgeted for. I think that it is a safe bet that expansion of the rail network around Edinburgh will never happen

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is worth remembering that Edinburgh is a relatively small city, Leicester is about the same (depending on what list you consult) and has no trams and one railway station (two if you could Syston on the outskirts). The brains trust that runs Edinburgh also has a history of wasting vast amounts of money on transport schemes that come to nothing, and the one that did cost a wee bit more than they budgeted for. I think that it is a safe bet that expansion of the rail network around Edinburgh will never happen

There are a few key differences...
1. Edinburgh is a city of flat dwellers, so is much higher density and so a far more viable public transport market.
2. Edinburgh is one of the UK's prime tourist hotspots - Leicester has almost no tourism.
3. Edinburgh is a capital city, Leicester is not.

 

[13h202]

It is worth remembering that Edinburgh is a relatively small city, Leicester is about the same (depending on what list you consult) and has no trams and one railway station (two if you could Syston on the outskirts). The brains trust that runs Edinburgh also has a history of wasting vast amounts of money on transport schemes that come to nothing, and the one that did cost a wee bit more than they budgeted for. I think that it is a safe bet that expansion of the rail network around Edinburgh will never happen

The Borders Railway expanded the rail network around Edinburgh (Shawfair, Eskbank, Newtongrange and Gorebridge). I wouldn't rule anything out, especially as Edinburgh has one of the fastest growing populations in the UK.

 

[takno]

I heard somewhere, quite a while ago albeit, that they want to use it but access is too difficult at the moment with the only way up being the current access on Platform 10. If the mezzanine level is added as in the draft masterplan, I can see them deciding to use it. Now 5/6 is in, it's probably the largest wasted space in the station.

Could you cram another west-facing platform in between 17 and 18 if you eliminated the siding between 16 and 17 and move 17/18 over a bit? I appreciate "moving over a bit" isn't strictly a five-minute job, but it seems like that would add a decent chunk of extra capacity at the right end of the station

 

[d9009alycidon]

The Borders Railway expanded the rail network around Edinburgh (Shawfair, Eskbank, Newtongrange and Gorebridge). I wouldn't rule anything out, especially as Edinburgh has one of the fastest growing populations in the UK.

But that is not a central Edinburgh project, it extended an existing branch line (much) further out. This is pretty much in line with existing commuting models, where commuters who use the rail services into Edinburgh tend to come from further out compared to Glasgow which has far more inner city stations, Why? because the terminal stations in Glasgow were well situated and the local topography was reasonably good for building railways, if you read John Thomas's book on the history of Scotland Railways, the reason why the inner suburban railways in Edinburgh closed down was a) people preferred hopping on the regular bus in Princes Street rather than descend Waverley steps to a dirty and infrequent train service and b) the routes that the trains had to take were (and still would be if reopened) very circuitous compared to the buses (example City Centre to Newington)
Any rail borne public transport expansion in Edinburgh is probable going to be further extensions of the Tram network, despite that past problems it still appears to be the preferred option

 

[takno]

But that is not a central Edinburgh project, it extended an existing branch line (much) further out. This is pretty much in line with existing commuting models, where commuters who use the rail services into Edinburgh tend to come from further out compared to Glasgow which has far more inner city stations, Why? because the terminal stations in Glasgow were well situated and the local topography was reasonably good for building railways, if you read John Thomas's book on the history of Scotland Railways, the reason why the inner suburban railways in Edinburgh closed down was a) people preferred hopping on the regular bus in Princes Street rather than descend Waverley steps to a dirty and infrequent train service and b) the routes that the trains had to take were (and still would be if reopened) very circuitous compared to the buses (example City Centre to Newington)
Any rail borne public transport expansion in Edinburgh is probable going to be further extensions of the Tram network, despite that past problems it still appears to be the preferred option

The borders line was an extension of a route which had only reopened 3 or 4 years earlier. And many of the Edinburgh suburban lines went from Princes Street rather than Waverley. Finally, there are a bunch of stations in the Lothians slated for reopening. Whether there's a few inner city stations on a line running through a dingy sewer or not is strictly irrelevant to the needs of today's Waverley

 

[d9009alycidon]

The borders line was an extension of a route which had only reopened 3 or 4 years earlier. And many of the Edinburgh suburban lines went from Princes Street rather than Waverley. Finally, there are a bunch of stations in the Lothians slated for reopening. Whether there's a few inner city stations on a line running through a dingy sewer or not is strictly irrelevant to the needs of today's Waverley

Just to keep you right there - The branches to Leith Central, North Leith and Granton, Corstorphine and the South Suburban Loop all went from Waverley, The Caley only had lines to North Leith and the minor branch to Barnton

 

[och aye]

Just to keep you right there - The branches to Leith Central, North Leith and Granton, Corstorphine and the South Suburban Loop all went from Waverley, The Caley only had lines to North Leith and the minor branch to Barnton

The Corstorphine branch was linked to Waverley too.

 

[Siemens Trains]

i personally think a tunnel from somwhere around haymarket station perhaps additionally stations at lothian road [old princess street station]

then perhaps a station near the bandstand and another between waverly and saint andrews bus station assuming it still exists??
the route would be running under princess street the garden and waverly market area and as a metro rising towards medowbank and portobello as seperate running lines and possibly st leaonards towards the sub or south side

then as you will be perhaps a bit below station level at waverly an over platform concourse at the new sub station will perhaps give a good easy via escelators rise in the old removed up and down carrage road areas

Its not Princess street!

Don't know why you felt the need to pick out Princess Street. Nor is it Waverly, Saint Andrews Bus Station, Waverley Market, Medowbank or St Leaonards.
The suggestion may not be an especially efficient use of heavy rail, but a valid opinion despite any spelling discrepancies.

 

[Class83]

If HS2 ever gets to Edinburgh, then a separate bored tunnel under Princes Street Gardens, using the site of the Waverley Mall as an access point would probably be necessary. Access from the West is a challenge which a flyover at Newbridge Junction would go a long way to improve, but longer platforms and trains, rather than more trains has to be the solution for the next 10 years or so.

Within Edinburgh a tram line down the bridges to the University, Cameron Toll and the Royal Infirmary would be a much more useful transport ling than reopening the South Suburban Line. Possibly followed by a tram down Lothian Road to Morningside.

 

[Photohunter71]

I'm sticking my neck out, but I can see in all eventuality that the South Sub loop will come back into play as a main corridor.
Had read also that Network rail and Transport Scotland were to hold some meeting regarding increasing freight on Scotland's tracks. I automatically thought that at present, the South sub loop could take more freight, it only handles the cements,alcans,nuclear waste and a Tyne dock to Mossend as well as the odd engineers trains. Seeing as the Cements run around the 7am mark, there seems to be plenty capacity, however, it's when you get to Slateford do you run into pathing issues?

 

[Esker-pades]

I'm sticking my neck out, but I can see in all eventuality that the South Sub loop will come back into play as a main corridor.
Had read also that Network rail and Transport Scotland were to hold some meeting regarding increasing freight on Scotland's tracks. I automatically thought that at present, the South sub loop could take more freight, it only handles the cements,alcans,nuclear waste and a Tyne dock to Mossend as well as the odd engineers trains. Seeing as the Cements run around the 7am mark, there seems to be plenty capacity, however, it's when you get to Slateford do you run into pathing issues?

Slateford to Mid-Calder Junction can get quite difficult with the express Edinburgh to England stuff and the 2tph to Shotts. It will get better with the 385s on the stoppers in May though.

 

[d9009alycidon]

While we are all speculating about driving new tunnels there is one existing tunnel that I am surprised has not received more consideration for reinstatement as an extension of the tram system, the old Edinburgh Leith and Granton could be brought back into use with stations at Waverley, Scotland Street, Canonmills, Trinity and Granton, looking at the NLS side by side maps the route seems to be more or less intact

 

[thin_richmond]

Would still be a lot of work for a very small branch line, and I reckon there would be quite an outcry at the loss of walking/open space that that type of re-instatement would lead to.

 

[47271]

While we are all speculating about driving new tunnels there is one existing tunnel that I am surprised has not received more consideration for reinstatement as an extension of the tram system, the old Edinburgh Leith and Granton could be brought back into use with stations at Waverley, Scotland Street, Canonmills, Trinity and Granton, looking at the NLS side by side maps the route seems to be more or less intact

You could I suppose, but bear in mind that the Waverley end is at rail and not street level and at right angles to P20, so a tram stop would have to be dug out as a chamber under the shopping centre, even if the foundations of that building don't make it impossible in the first place. You've then got a long incline under Dublin Street and Drummond Place emerging below Scotland Street. The line could loop round to Newhaven and join the extension that they're about to build.

Waverley to Scotland Street is a long way without a stop, but the tunnel must be directly below the St Andrew Square tram stop, could they create an underground station there?

Mind bogglingly expensive for a tram line and let's be honest the bottom of the New Town, Canonmills and Trinity aren't exactly areas in need of economic regeneration!

 

[InOban]

The Sub is already planned to be a major freight route. It's been cleared to W12/OHLE, although there are a number of bridge parapets to be raised. Electrification awaits an additional Feeder at Currie, which isn't planned until 2023, I think - why the delay?

Several posters seem to think that growth at Waverley will come from more trains. I believe that most services are adequately frequent. Growth will come from longer trains. I would expect that in a few years 4 coaches will be the minimum, more likely 6-8

 

[gghdeo]

Growth will come from longer trains.

I reckon that’s true for the near future, but if 8 coaches is the realistic limit on the E&G via Falkirk then 4tph on that route specifically will eventually be inadequate. Then you need the Almond Chord to get to 6tph for example. Then in 20 years time that might be insufficient, etc. As city, region[, and national] populations grow, there’s a need for infrastructure to keep pace.

 

[och aye]

The council have launched their public consultation. Its open until 25th April.

https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/waverley/

 

[route:oxford]

Don't know why you felt the need to pick out Princess Street. Nor is it Waverly, Saint Andrews Bus Station, Waverley Market, Medowbank or St Leaonards.
The suggestion may not be an especially efficient use of heavy rail, but a valid opinion despite any spelling discrepancies.

I suspect you may be a bit behind with the times, in modern day Scotland (and UK), it is completely inappopriate to misgender. The correct pronoun must be used on each and every occasion.

Waverely Market is what originally stood on the site of the Waverley Mall. The shopping centre has gone through a number of changes over the years. It started as "Waverley Market", became "Waverley Shopping Centre, then "Princes Mall" and is now branded as "Waverley Mall"

 

[13h202]

The council have launched their public consultation. Its open until 25th April.

https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/waverley/

Is this new or the same one that NR launched a few weeks back?

 

[CM]

I suspect you may be a bit behind with the times, in modern day Scotland (and UK), it is completely inappopriate to misgender. The correct pronoun must be used on each and every occasion.

Waverely Market is what originally stood on the site of the Waverley Mall. The shopping centre has gone through a number of changes over the years. It started as "Waverley Market", became "Waverley Shopping Centre, then "Princes Mall" and is now branded as "Waverley Mall"

What do gender pronouns have to do with Edinburgh Waverley?

 

[InOban]

The area to the left of the lift has a 'manned' temporary barrier. The 'minder' told me that this will be replaced by a glass screen as shown in the second pic. Scotrail are using P6 for Borders trains. It turns out that there was a lot of ticketless travel when the trains are busy such as weekends. It was rather a shock to some people the first time they had to purchase a ticket...

 

[Siemens Trains]

View attachment 61485 View attachment 61486

The area to the left of the lift has a 'manned' temporary barrier. The 'minder' told me that this will be replaced by a glass screen as shown in the second pic. Scotrail are using P6 for Borders trains. It turns out that there was a lot of ticketless travel when the trains are busy such as weekends. It was rather a shock to some people the first time they had to purchase a ticket...

In that case it does seem like the sign arrow on the liftshaft for platform 6 is wrong after all. You can see it in post #946 (last photograph). It's also inappropriate for platform 7 now as well.
Earlier today I noticed quite a few passengers being bounced from the ribbon when making for the platform 6/7 area and directed away from the sign, towards the ticket gates.
It didn't look very professional and maybe they feel it isn't affordable to maintain gates in both locations. But really, staff at the ribbon could just have asked to see tickets before letting passengers through today.

 

[13h202]

Edinburgh Waverley Masterplan
Today is the last chance to respond to the masterplan consultation. For anyone who hasn't done so already, I would highly suggest you do as there is scope here for some rather dramatic and transformative changes. It is open to anyone, not just regular users of the station.

Link: https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/waverley/