EGIP timeline

[Failed Unit]

I guess then it will be Stagecoach if it is refranchised.

 

[Scotrail84]

At least the Dalmeny curve will ease that (by making it effectively four-track to Linlithgow).

Don't forget the new station going in called Edinburgh gateway. This will be on the dalmeny line to connect with the trams for the airport.

 

[Failed Unit]

Don't forget the new station going in called Edinburgh gateway. This will be on the dalmeny line to connect with the trams for the airport.

Which can be done at Edinburgh Park anyway.

The gateway station interests me. South Gyle I understand will see a reduced service so residential areas which don't benefit from the tram suffer. But will services to Dundee, Inverness, Perth and Aberdeen stop there? Again you can change at Haymarket. The new station has white elephant written all over it.

 

[jopsuk]

if coming from the north to the airport (and possibly from the west too, once the chord is built) would you rather change at Gateway, or go all the way into Haymarket and back out? Park is only served by the A-B and Dunblane services, isn't it- the E-G via Falkirk services don't, to my knowledge, stop there.

 

[tbtc]

if coming from the north to the airport (and possibly from the west too, once the chord is built) would you rather change at Gateway, or go all the way into Haymarket and back out?

Or get the 747 bus, every twenty minutes from Inverkeithing station direct to the Airport?

 

[Failed Unit]

if coming from the north to the airport (and possibly from the west too, once the chord is built) would you rather change at Gateway, or go all the way into Haymarket and back out? Park is only served by the A-B and Dunblane services, isn't it- the E-G via Falkirk services don't, to my knowledge, stop there.

Correct, but as I said will the semi-fasts stop there?

Dunblane trains as you state can change at Edinburgh park so no benefit to them.

Edinburgh - Glasgow don't stop at Edinburgh Park, but they don't have time so if the stop at the gateway surely they can stop at Edinburgh park. The EMUs will make it possible. Glasgow - Edinburgh Park can go via Livingston now. I don't think I really want another stop added to the E&G to be honest considering thier overcrowding levels.

If you travel from Linlithgow - Dundee changing at Haymarket will be better than the gateway, toilets, refreshments etc.

As I said - i just can't see the benefit to be honest.

 

[Scotrail84]

Which can be done at Edinburgh Park anyway.

The gateway station interests me. South Gyle I understand will see a reduced service so residential areas which don't benefit from the tram suffer. But will services to Dundee, Inverness, Perth and Aberdeen stop there? Again you can change at Haymarket. The new station has white elephant written all over it.

The gateway is a strange one I have to admit. Is there not a problem with obtaining the land the build this chord, something to do with it going through a farmers land and farmhouse and the farmers not too keen on that.

If you've ever been to Liverpool south parkway station Edinburgh gateway is to be similar to that.

 

[Eagle]

If you've ever been to Liverpool south parkway station Edinburgh gateway is to be similar to that.

Yes, but the thing with Liverpool South Parkway is everything, bar one Virgin train an hour, stops there, so it's actually a useful rail interchange.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes, but the thing with Liverpool South Parkway is everything, bar one Virgin train an hour, stops there, so it's actually a useful rail interchange.

It took a while for that to happen, not sure when London Midland started stopping, but both EMT and TPE were a while after the station open. I would be surprised if the Aberdeen / Inverness trains stopped. Perth and Dundee semi fasts maybe, but of course not certain.

 

[rail-britain]

Edinburgh - Glasgow don't stop at Edinburgh Park, but they don't have time so if the stop at the gateway surely they can stop at Edinburgh park. The EMUs will make it possible. Glasgow - Edinburgh Park can go via Livingston now. I don't think I really want another stop added to the E&G to be honest considering thier overcrowding levels

I have a copy of the outline proposed timetable, showing how the 37 minute journey time is achieved
I will see when the embargo deadline expires on this

 

[Failed Unit]

I have a copy of the outline proposed timetable, showing how the 37 minute journey time is achieved
I will see when the embargo deadline expires on this

But only when the wind is still, the sun is out and the temperature outside is between 10oC and 20oC. Oh and no passengers or other trains to get in the way.

 

[tbtc]

Liverpool South Parkway replaced two previous stations (Allerton and Garston) IIRC, whilst Edinburgh Gateway will be a stone's thrown from South Gyle station (and also near to, but on a different line from the recently opened Edinburgh Park station). So, rather than uniting things, the Edinburgh version complicates things further (e.g. if you've finished work in offices around the Gyle and find that some Fife trains will stop at South Gyle and others will stop at Edinburgh Gateway, which do you go for?).

Also, the Liverpool equivalent didn't see services diverted from existing lines - it just gave a convenient place for existing services to interchange.

Edinburgh Gateway looks like something designed by a committee rather than something to solve a genuine problem. It's frustrating, because pretty much all of the other EGIP plans make a lot of sense (now that there's no mention of 125mph running...) - this is the fly in the ointment (and, as a Fifer, it appears to disadvantage Fife services with little real benefit)

 

[Zoe]

When the Scotland Act 2012 comes into force next month the Scottish Parliament will have powers to issue primary legislation that amends the UK legislation so that it only applies to England and Wales, leaving it free to create it's own separate primary legislation, so it is entirely possible for (within the constraints of our EU treaties) the parliament to grant the government full control over the process. Obviously this would need to involve a lot of consultation with the DfT especially with regard to the cross border franchises and Network Rail who cannot be easily divorced from DfT control.

I've had a quick look through the Scotland Act and media articles associated with it and nowhere do I see full power given to the Scottish Parliament to reppeal any UK legislation it wants to and introduce its own. If this is to be the case I would have thought there would have been more significant coverage and it would also make the other parts of the Act where specific powers have been devovled pointless as they would not need to be specifically granted if the Scottish Parliament can just amend any UK legislation it wants to except where it would be prevented by EU directives.
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There was a plan to include a clause in the Scotland Bill to allow the Scottish Parliament to set the model to be use for railways in Scotland but this was rejected. You can read a debate on it in Hansard:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm110315/debtext/110315-0003.htm

 

[Failed Unit]

Edinburgh Gateway looks like something designed by a committee rather than something to solve a genuine problem. It's frustrating, because pretty much all of the other EGIP plans make a lot of sense (now that there's no mention of 125mph running...) - this is the fly in the ointment (and, as a Fifer, it appears to disadvantage Fife services with little real benefit)

I agree, even as someone on the "other route" it is a good thing because transport Scotland say so. A lot of hastle to give us something we already have. Electrify by all means, build the cord if it helps diversions. But the existing service works.

I really hate that "Edinburgh Gateway will give an interchange with the trams from the central belt", "How is it better than Edinburgh Park?", "how dare you challenge the state with a reasonable question - you must be anti-Scottish ". Just imagine if someone says we have no interest in catching the trams but we want to visit our friends in South Gyle, the station you want to reduce to one train per hour to make way for your white elephant.

 

[tbtc]

I agree, even as someone on the "other route" it is a good thing because transport Scotland say so. A lot of hastle to give us something we already have. Electrify by all means, build the cord if it helps diversions. But the existing service works.

I really hate that "Edinburgh Gateway will give an interchange with the trams from the central belt", "How is it better than Edinburgh Park?", "how dare you challenge the state with a reasonable question - you must be anti-Scottish ". Just imagine if someone says we have no interest in catching the trams but we want to visit our friends in South Gyle, the station you want to reduce to one train per hour to make way for your white elephant.

Agreed totally (and not just because South Gyle is the closest station to my sister's house )

Some railway "problems" are historical ones (e.g. Warrington could be a great interchange between WCML trains and places on the Manchester/ Liverpool axis, but the two stations are some distance apart with no direct train service - something which I suspect will never be "solved").

However in Edinburgh we'll have three stations in a relatively close area with no service between any of them (?), large sums spent subsidising a twenty minute bus service from Inverkeithing Station to the Airport (which will presumably be scrapped when Edinburgh Gateway opens, meaning it never became profitable enough to be commercial), a "robbing Peter to pay Paul" approach to the congested lines west of Haymarket, a modern Park & Ride facility on the west of the city (that isn't quite at the Airport, RBS Headquarters, Gyle or Edinburgh Gateway, so doesn't really connect to any of them...).

The whole thing appears much more complicated than it needs to be, and spoils the simple benefits of the rest of the EGIP improvements.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I guess then it will be Stagecoach if it is refranchised.

That's not how public procurement works.
There will have to be a competition, and all the usual (EU-wide) suspects will apply.
Political donations won't come into it (I hope!).

 

[Failed Unit]

That's not how public procurement works.
There will have to be a competition, and all the usual (EU-wide) suspects will apply.
Political donations won't come into it (I hope!).

I have had many years of suffering OJEU procurement. They can do it as long as all bidders have a chance of supporting the SNP

Or they just say that the HQ must be in Perth, have rail franchise covering both IC and regional operators and extensive bus operations in Scotland

 

[tbtc]

I have had many years of suffering OJEU procurement. They can do it as long as all bidders have a chance of supporting the SNP

Or they just say that the HQ must be in Perth, have rail franchise covering both IC and regional operators and extensive bus operations in Scotland

Would Stagecoach want it?

Honest question - after seeing them pull out of the "prescriptive" London bus market (and their comments about closing depots in Newcastle IIRC if there was regulation), would they accept the "management contract" that any new Scotrail franchise would be?

 

[Zoe]

Honest question - after seeing them pull out of the "prescriptive" London bus market

They are back in now though having reacquired East London in 2010.

 

[rail-britain]

Would Stagecoach want it?

I posted before that Stagecoach are not actually all that interested in the ScotRail franchise, as it poses them with competition issues (if they were awarded the franchise)
However, they would submit a bid, but it would be so unrealistic (to take into account disposal of at least one of their Scottish-based bus companies) that it would not be in the running in reality

Some MSPs have also raised personal concerns about (rail) competition locally
As an example Stagecoach currently own a minority share in Virgin Trains, overlapping with the ScotRail franchise, and if they are awarded the East Coast franchise this gives them a near monopoly

There is no such issue for Stagecoach in their bid for the FGW franchise, and if they are awarded this franchise, they may not even take these other bids any further

 

[tbtc]

As an example Stagecoach currently own a minority share in Virgin Trains, overlapping with the ScotRail franchise, and if they are awarded the East Coast franchise this gives them a near monopoly

If there was any problem with "monopolies" then they'd never have been allowed West Coast and Cross Country though.

 

[clc]

I have a copy of the outline proposed timetable, showing how the 37 minute journey time is achieved
I will see when the embargo deadline expires on this

I was told 9 months ago that the stopping pattern between Queen St and Waverley was likely to be:-
2tph: Haymarket only (37 mins journey time)
2tph: Polmont/Linlithgow/Gogar/Haymarket
2tph: Croy/Falkirk High/Edinburgh Park/Haymarket

Might have been revised since then of course.

 

[tbtc]

I was told 9 months ago that the stopping pattern between Queen St and Waverley was likely to be:-
2tph: Haymarket only (37 mins journey time)
2tph: Polmont/Linlithgow/Gogar/Haymarket
2tph: Croy/Falkirk High/Edinburgh Park/Haymarket

Might have been revised since then of course.

That may be the case, but that'd be only two trains an hour stopping at Falkirk High?

 

[Failed Unit]

I was told 9 months ago that the stopping pattern between Queen St and Waverley was likely to be:-
2tph: Haymarket only (37 mins journey time)
2tph: Polmont/Linlithgow/Gogar/Haymarket
2tph: Croy/Falkirk High/Edinburgh Park/Haymarket

Might have been revised since then of course.

That is my fear, Falkirk high, Polmont, Linlithgow, gogar. A worse service than now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I posted before that Stagecoach are not actually all that interested in the ScotRail franchise, as it poses them with competition issues (if they were awarded the franchise)
However, they would submit a bid, but it would be so unrealistic (to take into account disposal of at least one of their Scottish-based bus companies) that it would not be in the running in reality

Some MSPs have also raised personal concerns about (rail) competition locally
As an example Stagecoach currently own a minority share in Virgin Trains, overlapping with the ScotRail franchise, and if they are awarded the East Coast franchise this gives them a near monopoly

There is no such issue for Stagecoach in their bid for the FGW franchise, and if they are awarded this franchise, they may not even take these other bids any further

This rail monopoly myth is annoying. So what if the same operator has scotrail, west coast and east coast? The competition is rail / coach / air. Not rail company against rail company. Does virgin really try and get any Edinburgh - London passengers? Why is it acceptable for a monopoly to exist in Kent which has a larger rail market?

I can accept problems with the stagecoach share in city link. But I can see no reason to care about who owns what rail franchise. The franchise are mini monopolies after all. You want to travel Edinburgh - London it is rail or air. Edinburgh - Aberdeen drive / rail or coach.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thinking about the new station, most of us walk from the station to our office. (some get the RBS bus). When we are forced to the Edinburgh Gateway, walking will no longer be an option. We will need to use the trams. So much for getting healthy! I guess it will get people on the tram even if they would rather walk to thier office!

 

[clc]

That is my fear, Falkirk high, Polmont, Linlithgow, gogar. A worse service than now. !

Falkirk High wouldn't be included in that particular stopping pattern. I don't see why it would be a worse service.

 

[Failed Unit]

Falkirk High wouldn't be included in that particular stopping pattern. I don't see why it would be a worse service.

More stops! At the moment Linlithgow has a service to Edinburgh Park (which it wants) and fast to Edinburgh Haymarket (which it wants). After EGIP it will lose the service to Edinburgh Park (which it wants) and gains 4 tph to Edinburgh Gateway (which it doesn't) so that is why it is worse. It will also be a slower service with the extra stop.

Falkirk High will be needed as I can't see falkirk liking the reduction from 4thp down to 2 (halving of the service)

 

[tbtc]

More stops! At the moment Linlithgow has a service to Edinburgh Park (which it wants) and fast to Edinburgh Haymarket (which it wants). After EGIP it will lose the service to Edinburgh Park (which it wants) and gains 4 tph to Edinburgh Gateway (which it doesn't) so that is why it is worse. It will also be a slower service with the extra stop.

Falkirk High will be needed as I can't see falkirk liking the reduction from 4thp down to 2 (halving of the service)

Are the Dunblane services being diverted via this daft Gateway station too?

How on earth anyone thinks there's room for four "Falkirk" services to run between the current seven Fife services on the line through South Gyle is beyond me!

(yes, frequent services run on two track lines in the Southern Region, but the muddle of "all stops" and "non stop Haymarket - Leuchars" services on the route to Fife aren't that simple...)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
(although, when* the tram starts running, Edinburgh Gateway will be about as useful for those coming from the Falkirk direction as Edinburgh Park is - i.e. a stop or two on the tram for The Gyle/ RBS/ Airport - it's no worse for most people from that direction)


* - IF!

 

[Failed Unit]

Are the Dunblane services being diverted via this daft Gateway station too?

That is my understanding - a case of force people to use it to make the building of it look right. They will then spin it as it is more popular than Edinburgh park and neglect to mention that most of the passengers would previously have use Edinburgh Park / South Gyle anyway!

 

[tbtc]

That is my understanding - a case of force people to use it to make the building of it look right. They will then spin it as it is more popular than Edinburgh park and neglect to mention that most of the passengers would previously have use Edinburgh Park / South Gyle anyway!

Plus, by forcing people to use the trams they get to claim that the tram ridership figures are high?

/cynic

 

[Failed Unit]

(although, when* the tram starts running, Edinburgh Gateway will be about as useful for those coming from the Falkirk direction as Edinburgh Park is - i.e. a stop or two on the tram for The Gyle/ RBS/ Airport - it's no worse for most people from that direction)


* - IF!

The problem here is of course the trams should have opened before the white elephant station, people wanting the trams will have got used to using Edinburgh Park. So again they won't see any benefits of the new stations as their journey experience will deteriate as a result of the alterations.