Electric scooters and the railway

[RHolmes]

Out of my own curiosity, many of our UK TOCs operate their own rules and regulations when it comes to the carriage of bicycles, wheelchairs and powered mobility scooters, but are there any rules and regulations regarding the carriage of E-Scooters that increasingly seem to be appearing in the public ownership?

I’m aware that TFL have allegedly banned their usage within stations and onboard trains if they’re unable to be folded and carried by the user.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Byelaw 15 mandates you must be on foot or carried in a pram or wheelchair, so no cycling, scooting or driving.

As an e-scooter is a motor vehicle, there's a whole raft of standard vehicle and use offences which can be committed, most of them carry penalty points.

Section 34 Road Traffic Act 1988 for starters. Driving elsewhere other than a road.

I'd also imagine that the conditions of travel place limits on luggage or associated conveyance of belongings. Edit: yes, they are explicitly banned by Section 23.6 of the Conditions.

 

[jfowkes]

Weird that my rather large, heavy, non folding electric bike is allowed, but a small electric scooter isn't.

 

[Mawkie]

I’m aware that TFL have allegedly banned their usage within stations and onboard trains if they’re unable to be folded and carried by the user.

Explicitly banned from using them on TfL (although permitted to be carried if folded).

TfL Conditions of Carriage:

2.5 On our buses, trams and trains, in our bus and rail stations and on tram platforms you must
not:
• smoke or use an electronic cigarette (‘vape’)
• use bicycles, roller skates, roller blades, scooters (including electric scooters), skateboards
or hoverboards
• take flash photographs and/or use a tripod or other camera support equipment
• use emergency exits except in an emergency or when instructed to do so by our staff

 

[Roast Veg]

Weird that my rather large, heavy, non folding electric bike is allowed, but a small electric scooter isn't.

The same is true for their use without a driving license - a quirk of the history of bicycles rather than a deliberate distinction.

 

[steve_wills]

The same is true for their use without a driving license - a quirk of the history of bicycles rather than a deliberate distinction.

Yep it goes back to the 1800s. A bicycle is a bicycle. Its wasnt a quirk of history but a court case.

 

[pdeaves]

There seems to be some confusion here between TOCs carrying e-scooters (etc.) and people using them within station premises. I don't see TOCs refusing to carry an e-scooter (sensibly stored, etc.) but can see objections to people riding up and down a platform on one.

 

[bengley]

Indeed. It's perfectly permissible to take e-scooters on trains as it is a bicycle.

 

[steve_wills]

Indeed. It's perfectly permissible to take e-scooters on trains as it is a bicycle.

This is why people get confused.

Your are 100% incorrect.

An e-scooters is NOT a bicycle.

A bicycle is a bicycle.

A electric bicycle is a electric bicycle and NOT a e-scooter.

 

[CrispyUK]

Indeed. It's perfectly permissible to take e-scooters on trains as it is a bicycle.

This is why people get confused.

Your are 100% incorrect.

An e-scooters is NOT a bicycle.

A bicycle is a bicycle.

A electric bicycle is a electric bicycle and NOT a e-scooter.

I think what bengley was trying to say is that it is perfectly acceptable to take an e-scooter onto a train, in the same way it is acceptable to take a bicycle onto a train. Not that an e-scooter is a bicycle.

However it would not be permitted to ride/use either of them on the platform.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I think what bengley was saying that it is perfectly acceptable to take an e-scooter onto a train, in the same way it is acceptable to take a bicycle onto a train.

However it would not be permitted to ride/use either of them on the platform.

It is not perfectly acceptable.

The conditions ban the carriage of them entirely, whether being ridden or not. They cannot be taken on board a train at all.

 

[steve_wills]

It is not perfectly acceptable.

The conditions ban the carriage of them entirely, whether being ridden or not. They cannot be taken on board a train at all.

Yep 100% correct.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Indeed. It's perfectly permissible to take e-scooters on trains as it is a bicycle.

You are very wrong. In criminal law, (and the civil / contractual conditions), at least for the bits that matter, there is absolutely no difference between an e-scooter and a car.

 

[steve_wills]

You are very wrong. In criminal law, (and the civil / contractual conditions), at least for the bits that matter, there is absolutely no difference between an e-scooter and a car.

Yep and a bicycle is a bicycle and NOT a motor vehicle. Which an e-scooter is.

 

[Qwerty133]

You are very wrong. In criminal law, (and the civil / contractual conditions), at least for the bits that matter, there is absolutely no difference between an e-scooter and a car.

In reality I suspect people would get away with taking them on board (as long as they were properly stored and not blocking doorways etc) as long as they didn't find themselves aboard a train that you were working.

 

[rob.rjt]

Whilst there may be no differences in law between a car and an e-scooter, e-scooters are not what comes to my mind when is see "motor scooters" are banned under the conditions of carriage.

I would see a motor scooter as a small motorbike, very similar to a moped - especially as the other items in the block are of that ilk.

Motor vehicles are clearly not banned per se as mobility scooters are allowed on trains.

 

[steve_wills]

town police act 1847.

 

[paulmch]

Given how much the "last mile solution" worries the transport industry it seems silly that we aren't bending over backwards to encourage the use of scooters!

 

[XAM2175]

town police act 1847.

No such act.

If you mean the Town Police Clauses Act 1847, you might also be so good as to quote the part of it that's actually relevant

 

[CrispyUK]

It is not perfectly acceptable.

The conditions ban the carriage of them entirely, whether being ridden or not. They cannot be taken on board a train at all.

Sorry, my post was more aiming to clarify what the previous poster was trying to say, rather than expressing a definitive answer on the matter.

However I have noticed that the National Rail Enquiries Luggage & Animals page (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/luggage-and-animals.aspx) specifically excludes e-scooters from the list of items not permitted on National Rail, which would suggest they can be carried?

Articles, Luggage and Animals Not Permitted on National Rail
[…]
Motorcycles, mopeds, motor scooters and motorised cycles (excluding e-Scooters).

 

[Yew]

You are very wrong. In criminal law, (and the civil / contractual conditions), at least for the bits that matter, there is absolutely no difference between an e-scooter and a car.

Indeed, legally they are much more similar to a 2673kg V8 Range Rover, than a bicycle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, my post was more aiming to clarify what the previous poster was trying to say, rather than expressing a definitive answer on the matter.

However I have noticed that the National Rail Enquiries Luggage & Animals page (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/luggage-and-animals.aspx) specifically excludes e-scooters from the list of items not permitted on National Rail, which would suggest they can be carried?

That would certainly seem to permit them, yes. As you can't legally ride them other than on private land (taking the hired ones on trains doesn't seem useful given their limited operating areas), using the train to take them from one location to the other would not seem unreasonable.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Given how much the "last mile solution" worries the transport industry it seems silly that we aren't bending over backwards to encourage the use of scooters!

Given their size, people would clog up the isles and vestibules with them. Of all the ones I've seen on trains, none have been folded up

 

[CrispyUK]

That would certainly seem to permit them, yes. As you can't legally ride them other than on private land (taking the hired ones on trains doesn't seem useful given their limited operating areas), using the train to take them from one location to the other would not seem unreasonable.

I think there is limited usefulness in actually taking them on a train as things currently stand, it wouldn’t make sense clocking up paid minutes on a hire scooter whilst on the train, ideally you’d just hire another at your destination station for the final ‘mile’ of your journey.

I could see a privately owned e-scooter serving as an alternative to a Brompton Bike for the first/last mile either side of the train journey, but as they can’t legally be used on public land that isn’t currently a use case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think there is limited usefulness in actually taking them on a train as things currently stand, it wouldn’t make sense clocking up paid minutes on a hire scooter whilst on the train, ideally you’d just hire another at your destination station for the final ‘mile’ of your journey.

I could see a privately owned e-scooter serving as an alternative to a Brompton Bike for the first/last mile either side of the train journey, but as they can’t legally be used on public land that isn’t currently a use case.

In Switzerland the employment is mostly in valleys, but lots of people live up the hill. A very common use case there is people riding unpowered scooters down to work in the morning then taking them back up on the bus in the evening.

I guess, once they are legalised, that sort of transfers to the UK.

 

[Egg Centric]

You are very wrong. In criminal law, (and the civil / contractual conditions), at least for the bits that matter, there is absolutely no difference between an e-scooter and a car.

Please explain this for a non lawyer. The Road Traffic Act goes out of its way to define what a vehicle is in section 185. Why should that be relevant for the conditions of carriage - i.e. why can't a more "common sense" interpretation be used when it comes to carrying luggage?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

That would certainly seem to permit them, yes. As you can't legally ride them other than on private land (taking the hired ones on trains doesn't seem useful given their limited operating areas), using the train to take them from one location to the other would not seem unreasonable.

The actual PDF conditions ban them.

Section 23.6 at Page 19.

"Motor scooters" are totally prohibited.

An e-scooter is clearly a motor scooter, albeit with an electric motor.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Please explain this for a non lawyer. The Road Traffic Act goes out of its way to define what a vehicle is in section 185. Why should that be relevant for the conditions of carriage?

Can you take a moped or small motorbike on a train...?

 

[Egg Centric]

The actual PDF conditions ban them.

Section 23.6 at Page 19.

"Motor scooters" are totally prohibited.

An e-scooter is clearly a motor scooter, albeit with an electric motor.

Actually, this probably answers my question above. Although I doubt the current e-scooters are what the drafter had in mind!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The actual PDF conditions ban them.

Section 23.6 at Page 19.

"Motor scooters" are totally prohibited.

An e-scooter is clearly a motor scooter, albeit with an electric motor.

The railway clearly does not intend that meaning given the page linked to. A "motor scooter" in most understandings is the likes of a Vespa, not an oversized kids' toy. Indeed, even a 49cc Vespa-a-like isn't a "motor scooter", it's (legally) a moped despite the absence of pedals.