Electric Spine

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bnsf734

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In todays announcement of the HLOS and electrification details is mention of the "Electric Spine" incorporating the MML electricification to Sheffield and electrification from Southampton to Nuneaton.

There is a map here published by the Dft showing this electrification with the other schemes annouced today.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/map-hlos-electrification.pdf

Full press release here
http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/press-releases/dft-press-20120716a


This raises a few questions from my first glance:

1. The East West link from Oxford to Bedford will be going from nothing to fully electrified by 2019. That will be some feat for what is currently a non-existent route!

2. I hope the line will be redoubled between Coventry and Leamington Spa otherwise there will be a large bottleneck in the route.

3. I also hope the already announced Nuneaton -Coventry upgrade will take account of this electrification. I seem to recall the platforms were being planned for 3 car trains, but 4 car trains would be better surely?

4. A large missing link would appear to be Birmingham - Leicester & Derby. This would allow much more use to be made of this link. I'm thinking XC services which could run Glasgow - Edinburgh - Southampton on the juice except for a missing 41 mile section in the middle! Of course they could run via Leicester, Bedford & Oxford.Edit: I've just realised there will be a missing link from Sheffield to Leeds & Doncaster.

Thats my initial thoughts, I'm sure there are plenty more.
 
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John55

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In todays announcement of the HLOS and electrification details is mention of the "Electric Spine" incorporating the MML electricification to Sheffield and electrification from Southampton to Nuneaton.

There is a map here published by the Dft showing this electrification with the other schemes annouced today.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/map-hlos-electrification.pdf

Full press release here
http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/press-releases/dft-press-20120716a


This raises a few questions from my first glance:

1. The East West link from Oxford to Bedford will be going from nothing to fully electrified by 2019. That will be some feat for what is currently a non-existent route!

2. I hope the line will be redoubled between Coventry and Leamington Spa otherwise there will be a large bottleneck in the route.

3. I also hope the already announced Nuneaton -Coventry upgrade will take account of this electrification. I seem to recall the platforms were being planned for 3 car trains, but 4 car trains wqould be better surely?

4. A large missing link would appear to be Birmingham - Leicester & Derby. This would allow much more use to be made of this link. I'm thinking XC services which could run Glasgow - Edinburgh - Southampton on the juice except for a missing 41 miles in the middle! Of course they could run via Leicester, Bedford & Oxford.

Thats my initial thoughts, I'm sure there are plenty more.
This electrification as mentioned elsewhere appears to be about freight from Southampton to the Midlands and North.

The other point is that in CP6 the electrification of the Cross Country route from Newcastle to Bristol becomes obvious. Not everything can be done at once.

The other thing is there is still a year of horse trading between the DfT, NR and the ORR before any of this is certain to go ahead.
 

swt_passenger

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This raises a few questions from my first glance:

1. The East West link from Oxford to Bedford will be going from nothing to fully electrified by 2019. That will be some feat for what is currently a non-existent route!
It isn't going from absolutely nothing though, it is theoretically mothballed. There is no need to purchase any land for instance, or remove cycle tracks etc. Just clear what is already there and rebuild.
 

giblets

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Interesting that Oxford-Leamington-Coventry is set to be electrified, not seen that mentioned anywhere else. May as well do all the way up to brum via Solihull, as XC also use this route (could be good for the proposed dual mode Voyagers).t
Any idea what the proposed improvements being made to the ECML are?
 

swt_passenger

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Interesting that Oxford-Leamington-Coventry is set to be electrified, not seen that mentioned anywhere else. May as well do all the way up to brum via Solihull, as XC also use this route (could be good for the proposed dual mode Voyagers).
XC might not need Solihull doing (although it could be available for diversions), because all services are intended to be running via Coventry by then on existing plans.


Any idea what the proposed improvements being made to the ECML are?
Electrification Selby to Micklefield.
ERTMS on south of route.
Peterborough track remodelling, eg:

East Coast Connectivity
52.The Secretary of State recognises the importance of the East Coast Main Line in linking Scotland, the North East, Yorkshire and Eastern England with London. In addition to the schemes already funded, she seeks further improvement in capacity and reduction in journey times and believes there are good business cases for both. The industry should develop plans to deliver works within a maximum CP5 expenditure of £240m. These plans should include suitable efficient capacity for the crossing flows of passenger and freight traffic at Peterborough.
The HLOS has a few separate sections that mention the ECML, it isn't a concise chunk of info like the MML wiring.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Reading-Basingstoke to be wired plus Basingstoke-Southampton converted from DC to AC!!!
Which hat did this rabbit come from?

They've pushed out Sheffield-Doncaster/Moorthorpe to CP6 and not mentioned the TP branches (Selby = Hambleton loop).
Somehow Derby-Bedford-Oxford-Bristol trumps Derby-Birmingham-Bristol...

Radically changes the rolling stock cascade options.
Do SWT rush off and buy dual-voltage Desiros?
New XC electric routes?
What will EWS/Freightliner make of it? Do they want anything to do with electric freight?

As the young folk say today, "it's doin' my head in".
Will Network Rail cheer or cry?
 
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Reading-Basingstoke to be wired plus Basingstoke-Southampton converted from DC to AC!!!
Which hat did this rabbit come from?

Do SWT rush off and buy dual-voltage Desiros?
Basingstoke to Southampton is not being converted to AC.
That section is getting "....enhancement from 750 DC third rail electrification to 25 kv AC overhead electrification"; which implies the AC will be additional to the existing DC.


.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This raises a few questions from my first glance:

2. I hope the line will be redoubled between Coventry and Leamington Spa otherwise there will be a large bottleneck in the route.
The DfT document says....
"Leamington Spa – Coventry capacity enhancement 25 kv AC overhead electrification and additional double track".

.
 

swt_passenger

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Radically changes the rolling stock cascade options.
Do SWT rush off and buy dual-voltage Desiros?
New XC electric routes?
What will EWS/Freightliner make of it? Do they want anything to do with electric freight?

As the young folk say today, "it's doin' my head in".
Will Network Rail cheer or cry?
Most of your points are being discussed in the other main electrification thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=68178&page=11

... but this electric spine addon to MML is clearly being described as a freight and passenger project with a Southern end specified as Southampton Port - so you'd hope EWS/FL were onboard.

SWT's Desiros are already wired up for dual voltage operation, but without the big peices of kit such as panto and transformer/converter. (As we seem to discuss and point out every few months...)
 

John55

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Basingstoke to Southampton is not being converted to AC.
That section is getting "....enhancement from 750 DC third rail electrification to 25 kv AC overhead electrification"; which implies the AC will be additional to the existing DC.


.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The DfT document says....
"Leamington Spa – Coventry capacity enhancement 25 kv AC overhead electrification and additional double track".

.
From 750V to 25kV as far as I am concerned means removal of 3rd rail and adding OHLE. I don't think the electrical engineers would allow long distance dual voltage operation. However in the 2 to 7 years before this happens we will no doubt find out the full story.
 

swt_passenger

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Basingstoke to Southampton is not being converted to AC.
That section is getting "....enhancement from 750 DC third rail electrification to 25 kv AC overhead electrification"; which implies the AC will be additional to the existing DC.
Sure? Elsewhere in the HLOS text it reads:

The southern end of the Electric Spine entails the conversion of a section of the existing Southern ‘third rail’ (750V DC) electrification system to the more modern and capable ‘overhead’ (25kV AC) system to upgrade its capability.

Also:

The change at renewal of Southampton to Basingstoke - the southern section of the Electric Spine - to the modern overhead AC system will also test the business case for the wider conversion of the third rail electric network south of the Thames to overhead line equipment.
 

hwl

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Reading-Basingstoke to be wired plus Basingstoke-Southampton converted from DC to AC!!!
Which hat did this rabbit come from?

They've pushed out Sheffield-Doncaster/Moorthorpe to CP6 and not mentioned the TP branches (Selby = Hambleton loop).
Somehow Derby-Bedford-Oxford-Bristol trumps Derby-Birmingham-Bristol...

Radically changes the rolling stock cascade options.
Do SWT rush off and buy dual-voltage Desiros?
New XC electric routes?
What will EWS/Freightliner make of it? Do they want anything to do with electric freight?

As the young folk say today, "it's doin' my head in".
Will Network Rail cheer or cry?
Basingstoke-Southampton is listed as "enhanced" electrification from DC to AC so I had assumed that both in use as it didn't say conversion.

SWT's Siemens stock can easily be retrofitted for AC use -DfT have been specifying this for a while.

DBS (EWS) have 92s in store and Freight line have some 86s and 90s
 

gwr4090

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Reading-Basingstoke to be wired plus Basingstoke-Southampton converted from DC to AC!!!
Which hat did this rabbit come from?

Radically changes the rolling stock cascade options.
Do SWT rush off and buy dual-voltage Desiros?
New XC electric routes?
What will EWS/Freightliner make of it? Do they want anything to do with electric freight?
*Conversion* of Basingstoke-Southampton from DC to AC is just a start. The HLOS calls for a rolling programme to convert all Southern third rail lines which is apparently cheaper than renewing the DC infrastructure ! This has been discussed over the last 18 months or so.

The SWT Desiros were designed so that they can be easily converted to dual DC/AC. Note that there is already a car in each unit designed to carry a OLE pantograph. I expect conversion of Southampton-Weymouth will be the next project.

David
 

lyndhurst25

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Oxford to Bedford re-opened as a through route AND electrified is a surprise. Presumably it's cheaper to do the whole lot in one go rather than going back to electrify at a later date.

If the intention is to run electrically hauled freight from Southampton to the North via the Midland Maine Line then, as it stands, there's going to be a need to change to diesel locos to go beyond Sheffield. Electric locos coming off trains and being exchanged for diesels in Sheffield? I seem to remember that happening before....

(Probably the best place to do it would be Toton as most freight avoids Sheffield by using the Old Road between Chesterfield and Rotherham.)
 
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gwr4090

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As stated by others I don't think the line is going to be 'converted', just 'enhanced' to have OHLE as well. So SWT can stay third rail while freight and potentially XC with their e-Voyagers can go 25kv AC.
There may be a period of parallel AC and DC operation but the DC infrastructure is due to be renewed soon, so I doubt this will ever happen, - the DC will be turned off ! The SWT Desiros will be easy to convert to dual voltage.
 

giblets

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Oxford to Bedford re-opened as a through route AND electrified is a surprise. Presumably it's cheaper to do the whole lot in one go rather than going back to electrify at a later date.
Wondering whether that is mainly for freight. It's also a little unclear who will operate the route, chiltern of GW, certainly chiltern currently operate a solely diesel fleet.
 

hwl

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Wondering whether that is mainly for freight. It's also a little unclear who will operate the route, chiltern of GW, certainly chiltern currently operate a solely diesel fleet.
East West rail is listed under Chiltern (Marylebone) in one of the documents.

Does the spine i.e. MML, EWR, Reading - Basingstoke and Oxford - Coventry etc imply that an additional HOOP train is now needed to complete the additional electrification work by 2019?
 

swt_passenger

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As stated by others I don't think the line is going to be 'converted', just 'enhanced' to have OHLE as well. So SWT can stay third rail while freight and potentially XC with their e-Voyagers can go 25kv AC.
Long distance dual electrification is not a normal technique on the railway. Dealing with the two different standards for return current, except for short distance changeover zones, is not considered sound practice normally.

The longer dual sections were actively removed from the NLL as part of its upgrade, so I still say it is highly unlikely to be dual feed over a significant distance.
 

John55

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East West rail is listed under Chiltern (Marylebone) in one of the documents.

Does the spine i.e. MML, EWR, Reading - Basingstoke and Oxford - Coventry etc imply that an additional HOOP train is now needed to complete the additional electrification work by 2019?
The HOOP train is proposed to be used on the MML after it has done the GWML. I am not sure it is particularly suited to smaller schemes. The Scottish, Lancashire and North Trans-Peninne schemes are not using one and the South Wales scheme didn't propose its use either. Liverpool - Manchester seems to be getting on with a 3 car dmu!

However as always all will become clear in due course. Perhaps NR will wait and see if the first one is any good.
 

bangor-toad

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Long distance dual electrification is not a normal technique on the railway. Dealing with the two different standards for return current, except for short distance changeover zones, is not considered sound practice normally.
Hi there,
I agree with this but I'm fascinated as to how this is going to work out.

At Basingstoke there would need to be a short section to the east of the station where the junction is and then into the station itself I'd guess. Seems "normal" in distance for dual 3rd rail and OHLE.

It's around Southampton where it's going to be tricky I think.
There's a moderate distance between Southampton station, through St Denys and onto the Coastaway line. This is far longer than a switchover section. I wonder what will be done here?
I suppose there could be a changeover at St Denys but this would limit the choice of EMU used along the coastal route. Ho hum, maybe it's time for Southern to check the skip to see if the 313 pantoagraphs are still there! :D

Jason
 

Class377/5

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From 750V to 25kV as far as I am concerned means removal of 3rd rail and adding OHLE. I don't think the electrical engineers would allow long distance dual voltage operation. However in the 2 to 7 years before this happens we will no doubt find out the full story.
I don't see why the minders would have a problem with this. Thameslink least has a small to station section that's equipped with both types and BR/Railtrack proposed putting the wires to Tulse Hill as part of the Thameslink 2000 project. If thy had woked put how to do hat then I can't see there being an issue doing it else where.

After all conversion of the DC to AC will require dual working on all sections over time. I don't see how this is any different.
 

swt_passenger

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I don't see why the minders would have a problem with this. Thameslink least has a small to station section that's equipped with both types and BR/Railtrack proposed putting the wires to Tulse Hill as part of the Thameslink 2000 project. If thy had woked put how to do hat then I can't see there being an issue doing it else where.

After all conversion of the DC to AC will require dual working on all sections over time. I don't see how this is any different.
It wouldn't necessarily have been dual all the way to Tulse Hill though on the early plans - they'd probably have moved the changeover point down there as well.
 

Class377/5

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It wouldn't necessarily have been dual all the way to Tulse Hill though on the early plans - they'd probably have moved the changeover point down there as well.
It would hav been dual voltage over Herne Hill flat crossing and into Tulse Hill station. My point was complex junctions could be done 15-20 years ago, there's no reason we can't do long sections now.
 

swt_passenger

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It would hav been dual voltage over Herne Hill flat crossing and into Tulse Hill station. My point was complex junctions could be done 15-20 years ago, there's no reason we can't do long sections now.
We also don't want the mixing of AC and DC traction return currents over long distances. That's why there is a massively complicated building full of switchgear between Blackfriars and City T/L.

It is all far too complex and costly for long distance use.
 

Metroland

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The odd things is why Sheffield - Doncaster/Moorthorpe has not been included in the Electric spine. This is provide even more connectivity for freight, which I presume is the main beneficiary of this scheme. For passenger services, it begs two questions: Will the XC service be scaled back to Southampton? Personally I would welcome this and with extra availability of units make Soton - Midlands 1/2 hourly. Also, there is the possibility of XC services across the new E-W line from the South coast which much faster timings to the NW and NE.

The full list of projects for the HLOS are here:

The Electric Spine
- Southampton Port – Basingstoke enhancement from 750 DC third rail
electrification to 25 kv AC overhead electrification;
- Basingstoke – Reading 25 kv AC overhead electrification;
- Oxford – Banbury - Leamington Spa 25 kv AC overhead electrification;
- Leamington Spa – Coventry capacity enhancement 25 kv AC overhead
electrification and additional double track;
- Coventry – Nuneaton 25 kv AC overhead electrification;
- Oxford – Bicester Town - Bletchley – Bedford 25 kv AC overhead
electrification and double track (core of East West Rail);
- Bedford – Nottingham and Derby, and Derby – Sheffield (Midland Main Line)
25 kv AC overhead electrification;
- Leicester area capacity enhancement (freight/passenger crossing flows);
- Derby station area remodelling in conjunction with renewals;
- Sheffield station area remodelling in conjunction with renewals;
- Kettering – Corby 25 kv AC overhead electrification;
- Kettering – Corby capacity enhancement (additional double track); And, where applicable, on all routes loading gauge enhancement to W12
South Wales

South Wales Electrification
25 kv AC overhead electrification of
- Cardiff Central to Cardiff Queen Street,
Cardiff Queen Street to Aberdare,
- Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Bay,
- Cardiff Queen Street to Coryton,
- Newport to Ebbw Vale,
- Cardiff Central – Pontyclun – Bridgend – Maesteg,
- Abercynon - Merthyr Tydfil,
- Grangetown to Penarth,
- Cardiff Central – Danescourt – Radyr (City Line),
- Cardiff Queen Street to Rhymney,
- Pontypridd to Treherbert,
- Cardiff Central – Barry – Bridgend (Vale of Glamorgan),
- Barry to Barry Island, and
- Bridgend to Swansea.

Thames Valley
- Acton – Willesden 25 kv AC overhead electrification.
- Slough – Windsor 25 kv AC overhead electrification.
- Maidenhead – Marlow 25 kv AC overhead electrification.
- Twyford – Henley-on-Thames 25 kv AC overhead electrification, and
- Oxford station area capacity and station enlargement.

Midlands
- Walsall – Rugeley 25 kv AC overhead electrification,
- Water Orton – Tamworth capacity, and
- Depot and stabling enhancement for extra trains.

Yorkshire
- Micklefield – Selby 25 kv AC overhead electrification,
- Micklefield turnback,
- Huddersfield Station capacity enhancement,
- West Yorkshire platform lengthening including Leeds,
- South Yorkshire platform lengthening, and
- Depot and stabling enhancement for extra trains.

Airports and Ports
- Heathrow Western Access subject to business case and conclusion of an
agreement with the aviation industry,
- Ely area capacity enhancement (freight/passenger crossing flows) and
- Redhill additional platform

Northern Hub and Manchester
- Liverpool – Manchester track capacity (Huyton – Northern Hub),
- Manchester Airport fourth platform (Northern Hub ,
- Castlefield corridor additional capacity and additional through platforms at
Manchester Piccadilly (Northern Hub),
- Rochdale turnback (Northern Hub), and
- Depot and stabling enhancement for extra trains

South East
- London Waterloo platform lengthening and station throat expansion,
- Virginia Water - Reading line platform lengthening for 10-car operation,
- Gordon Hill turnback,
- West Anglia Lower Lea Valley capacity enhancement (turnback facilities),
- Bow Junction capacity enhancement (potentially CP6),
- East Kent capacity enhancement including relocation of Rochester Station,
- Uckfield line platform lengthening for 10-car operation,
- Norwood Junction capacity enhancement (turnback facilities),
- Paddington station passenger capacity improvements,
- Victoria station passenger capacity improvements,
- Clapham Junction station congestion relief,
- Wimbledon station congestion relief,
- Traction power upgrade – Kent, Sussex, Wessex, Anglia, LNE,
- South London HV traction power upgrade, and
- Depot and stabling enhancement for extra trains

West
- Filton – Bristol capacity enhancement (four-track).
- Bristol Temple Meads station capacity and incorporation of historic Digby Wyatt train shed. Station potentially a focus of wider city regeneration.
- Route gauge clearance for different DMUs.

East Coast (Ring fenced £240m enhancement fund)
- Stevenage Down platform addition,
- Huntingdon – Fletton capacity enhancement (four track),
- Peterborough Down LDHS call time reduction,
- Peterborough grade separation for access to GE/GN line,
- Doncaster bay platform and track capacity, and
- ERTMS signalling system fitted on the south end of the East Coast Main Line
(renewals item and not funded as an enhancement).

Enhancement Funds
- £200m Strategic Freight Network
- £300m Passenger Journey Improvement
- £100m Station Infrastructure Improvement
- £100m Station Access for All
- £140m Development and Innovation
- £65m Level Crossing Improvement
 

tbtc

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If the intention is to run electrically hauled freight from Southampton to the North via the Midland Maine Line then, as it stands, there's going to be a need to change to diesel locos to go beyond Sheffield. Electric locos coming off trains and being exchanged for diesels in Sheffield? I seem to remember that happening before....
Those were the days :lol:
 

Class377/5

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We also don't want the mixing of AC and DC traction return currents over long distances. That's why there is a massively complicated building full of switchgear between Blackfriars and City T/L.

It is all far too complex and costly for long distance use.
You mean Ludgate Cellars, the biggest DC sub station in the UK that's got no connection to the AC and is to provide power to the increasing in power requirements for KO2?
 

John55

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You mean Ludgate Cellars, the biggest DC sub station in the UK that's got no connection to the AC and is to provide power to the increasing in power requirements for KO2?
To my knowledge the infrastructure at Farringdon wasn't dual voltage but switched between AC and DC while the train did the same. This was to prevent the return currents from the floating earth DC world south of the Thames getting into the solid earth of the 25kV network.

Has this changed recently?
 

YorkshireBear

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I made this point in another thread. In the details for MML it says and any addintional electrified connections to existinf electric lins. To me that says sheffield-doncaster/moorthorpe.
Being optimistic but it could.
 

Class377/5

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To my knowledge the infrastructure at Farringdon wasn't dual voltage but switched between AC and DC while the train did the same. This was to prevent the return currents from the floating earth DC world south of the Thames getting into the solid earth of the 25kV network.

Has this changed recently?
I'm talking about what the quoted poster stated with th new building between City and Blackfriars. Only thing that got built there was Ludgate Cellars, a DC sub station. NR have made enough fuss about it. It's not got much (apart from the 3rd rail) to o with Farringdon so I'm not sure what your talking about.

Bare in mind Farrindon has been dual voltage (Thameslink platforms) since Zthe Snow Hill tunnel was reopened. The new building was only commissioned in 2010 so it's not connected to the ability to have both wires and 3rd operating at the same point.

All that's changed is the wires got extended to City and a new DC substation was needed to cope with increased traction loads due to long and more frequent trains.
 
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