Electrification after chat moss routes. etc.

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by connor7777, 11 Mar 2011.

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  1. connor7777

    connor7777 Member

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    If they really went for it they could do.

    Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central.
    Preston to Ormskirk.
    Kirkby and Southport to Wigan.
    Warrington Bank Quay to Chester and Halton Curve.
    Crewe to Chester.
    Sandbach to Northwich, then Northwich to WCML via Greenbank Curve.
    OR. Sandbach to Northwich and all of the mid Cheshire line. Or convert to Manchester Metro.
    Blackpool South.
    Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury.
    Hereford to Bromsgrove.
    Stockport - Sheffield
    Stoke - Derby
     
  2. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    I doubt that the benefits outweigh the costs on any of those routes.

    Blackpool South to Preston - Currently the service runs to Colne, so unless you run electric trains from Blackpool South to Preston and diesel trains onward to Colne, there is no operating cost reduction from this.

    Warrington Bank Quay/Crewe to Chester - Why, when most of the services go along the North Wales Coast line, would you only wire to Chester?

    Wigan to Kirby/Southport - Would you not need to also wire Wigan to Bolton/Salford Crescent? Or have I missed something?

    Stockport to Sheffield - What benefit would this bring?

    Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington - aside from losing some pacers and sprinters on the stoppers, there is no benefit that I can see.

    Mid Cheshire line - If your going to do any of it you might as well do all of it, but would it be of benefit? Or would you just be replacing a couple of units on the local services?
     
  3. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    Someone told me they were doing the tiny stretch from Wigan NW/WCML to Wigan Wallgate but ive never seen anything to confirm that. Wigan Wallgate to Bolton line is only a couple of miles and probably will have a positive BCR after the lines dones. I wouldnt hold out much hope for Atherton or Southport lines though, probably remain a diesel island for some time to come. Kirkby line Headbolt Lane-Wallgate I could see happening if some form of Merseyrail vertical integration occured, theres also reportedly a positive BCR for reopening to Skem either from Ormskirk or Kirkby approachs.
     
  4. connor7777

    connor7777 Member

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    I am a very green person
    If you electrify Crewe to Chester, then Chester to Warrington can be a diversion route for the WCML.

    It's the same as painting a house, you paint 1 room then you notice others need doing, we electrify Blackpool North, then Blackpool south looks odd, you see what I mean.


    Proposing 100% electrified railway on our network by 2030. :)
     
  5. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Most services from Crewe to Chester terminate at Chester (the hourly ATW shuttle and the hourly VT service from Euston), its only a few morning services from Holyhead and a few evening ones to Holyhead which run further. Wiring Crewe - Chester would allow Virgin to get rid of all Voyagers *if* they could sort out a drag for the token Holyhead services.
     
  6. PhilipW

    PhilipW Member

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    I think that we should all be very pleased that these 4 schemes are going ahead. It is a lot more than many of us were expecting given the state of the national finances and the change of government last May.

    Once completed in 2016 it is quite likely that other add-on schemes will be authorised. Once you have the core routes electrified, it becomes far easier to justify add-ons.

    The one I would like to see is the big one -- over the top to Leeds. With a little in-fill in Yorkshire, the whole route from Liverpool to Newcastle would be electrified. To me, that's the prize to go for.
     
  7. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Okay, I stand corrected on Crewe-Chester trains terminating there, for some reason I thought the Holyhead trains still went to Crewe.

    IMO Network Rail would still be crazy to electrify Warrington-Chester just for a diversionary route which is only going to be around 20-30 minutes quicker than Crewe-Manchester-Warrington (BQ) and of no real time difference to Crewe-Manchester-Preston.
     
  8. Welshman

    Welshman Established Member

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    Extending the wires to from Crewe to Chester would be a good idea, allowing Virgin to stop running diesel Voyagers all the way from Euston to Crewe, and start running pendolinos to Chester.

    The service onwards to Holyhead, though, is far from a "token" service. It serves growing markets at Flint, Rhyl, Llandudno in addition to the student market at Bangor University and holiday traffic, and the existing Virgin services along the NW Coast are usually well-patronised.

    Dragging pendos, though, is not the answer. I think this route would be an ideal candidate for the bi-mode Voyager, if the pantograph cars ever see the light of day. Electric from Euston to Chester, diesel along the coast.

    And if the bi-mode Voyager never materialises, perhaps something on the lines of the bi-mode IEPs proposed for Paddington-Swansea could be used?
     
  9. cle

    cle Established Member

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    I'm surprised the North Wales coast line in its entirety hasn't come out more positive.

    Crewe - Chester would enable electric working formany services. And there is a shuttle between the two, which could also go EMU - maybe extend the LM Trent Valley stopper to Chester and back to replace the shuttle (timetable permitting?) Would open Chester and North Wales up to some new markets.

    That's all Crewe-Chester would release. But with North Wales and Warrington Chester, you could run the Llandudnos with EMUs as well as Crewe-Holyheads and all London trains. And with Halton too, it'd be a new era for North Wales.

    The Warrington Central Liv-Manc line would only make sense if combined with wires across to Leeds (and York). But EMU-ing the stoppers would be good, and help with pathing in terms of acceleration. Maybe there could be more capacity - there is already some random skip-stopping with Birchwood and Widnes which helps even things out.
     
  10. Welshman

    Welshman Established Member

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    Agreed. Yes. Bring it on!

    Wires from Crewe to Chester and Bi-mode from there was the best I dared hope for in the present financial climate.
     
  11. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    I'm certainly no Tory, but I was very pleasantly surprised to see these schemes continuing, I honestly didn't expect them to commit to much more than build Crossrail - the fact that Blackpool/ Chat Moss etc are getting electrified is great news

    Its still just one train an hour (plus a stopper from Huddersfield to Leeds, usually Pacer run). To do Transpennine properly you have to decide whether to electrify to Middlesbrough/ Scarborough/ Hull, to cut their direct services to Manchester or to run DMUs under the wires. I think the electrification from Manchester to York would be a good thing, but only if the majority of services on the line move to EMU. This may mean cutting some of the direct services from Middlesbrough/Scarborough to Manchester since you'd need to convert a lot of the Transpennine services to EMU to justify wiring it.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    The problem is that the electrification suggested on this thread would only really "save" one train an hour (Manchester - Llandudno). The London - Holyhead service is only a few a day, and there's no talk of wiring the ATW line through Wrexham/ Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton/Cardiff. It'd only be worth electrifying the North Wales coast line if you were going to switch most services to EMU. To do this would mean terminating the Birmingham/Cardiff - Wrexham - Holyhead services at Chester and running an EMU from the WCML/ Crewe instead. However, that won't happen for political reasons.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Its only three (?) from Holyhead to London on the morning and a similar number of return journeys in the evening. With Ryanair etc taking the bulk of the London - Ireland market there are fewer people still using the train to get the Holyhead ferry, which was one of the justifications of this service in the past.

    I agree with the need to serve Bangor etc better, which is why I've argued for a Liverpool service on other threads.
     
  12. cle

    cle Established Member

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    I think there are 8 London - Holyhead trains per day (M/F), mostly in the peaks. There are also some Bangor terminators, clearly not serving the Irish ferries. It's not an insignificant amount for a secondary trunk line.
     
  13. Fincra5

    Fincra5 Established Member

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    Surely one line that should be electrifed is Ore to Ashford Intl, its only 30miles or so but is a large gap in SE electrification.
     
  14. ajax103

    ajax103 Established Member

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    Lines that ought to be electrified but will never be done:

    Wokingham Junction to Aldershot South Junction
    Shalford Junction to Reigate

    These would remove the diesel island that currently exists between Reading and Redhill via Guildford which in turn would mean a move to EMU operation.

    Uckfield to Hurst Green Junction

    This again would remove the existing diesel island that currently exists between Reading and Hurst Green which in turn would mean a move to EMU operation.

    Ore to Ashford International

    This once done would mean a end to diesels on the Southern except for the South West Trains services to Exeter and Bristol via Salisbury and the token First Great Western services between Brighton and Great Malvern.

    Ipswich to Cambridge and Ely with Ely to Peterborough and Norwich

    Would free up a awful lot of DMUs to be used elsewhere and apart from being EMU operated would mean a lot more freight being electrically hauled between Ipswich and Doncaster via Peterborough and Grantham

    Only thing is though you're still going to have the Birmingham to Stansted and Norwich to Liverpool services as DMUs until these areas are electrified.
     
  15. lm321412

    lm321412 Member

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    I am sorry but Stoke - Derby would be a waste.

    Currently it has 1tph, and as far as I know it wouldn't paticularly help freight either.


    Also Hereford to Bromsgrove!?

    So we are going to leave Bromsgrove - Barnt Green then!?



    The only one I would like to see is Crewe - Chester.
     
  16. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Already funded and planned by Network Rail for a few years now as part of the plan to extend some Cross-city trains to Bromsgrove. My local knowledge is a bit out of date now so not sure what is going on with this and the re-siting of Bromsgrove station.
     
  17. lm321412

    lm321412 Member

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    I know it has been planned but as far as I know, the move of Bromsgrove Station is still in its very early days...


    I think it will be a long time to come, but brilliant for Bromsgrove when it does.
     
  18. connor7777

    connor7777 Member

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    Do you think another study could be done to extend merseyrail lines from Ormskirk, Kirkby, and the borderlands line which I know was ruled out, but maybe another study should be done.

    Electric trains from Hereford to Birmingham, thats what we need aswell, would be a big project aswell. Plus a future proposal to Oxford when the GWML is completed. aLlowing electric trains from Hereford to London aswell.
     
  19. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    Hurrah! "An awful lot" of DMUs = 8 x 170s (total 21 vehicles) that it takes to run Ipswich - Cambridge, Ipswich - Peterboro and Cambridge - Norwich. And for only 128 route miles of knitting!

    Alternatively, the money could be spent on the 125 route miles from Bedford to Sheffield / Nottingham, freeing up almost a whole fleet of Meridians (143 vehicles) and 9 HSTs.

    And/or, as PhilipW says, North Trans-Pennine Machester - York, which with a bit of selective service alteration would release most of the 185s.

    Electrification has to be prioritised on the routes where the most diesel vehicles (and thus mileage) is replaced with electric mileage for the lowest cost.

    My cunning plan would be to wire the MML in time for HS2 opening in the mid 2020s, then the displaced Pendolinos can find a new home on the twisty turny MML, which will also reduce journey times.
     
  20. bluenoxid

    bluenoxid Established Member

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    Wow you have spent a lot of time spending hard earned tax payers cash with very little idea.

    Pfffffttttt. No chance unless Merseyside takes over the area. The other issue is the tunnel and the route being closed from 7pm onwards due to the local people. They would be better off extending to Skelmersdale then running a Skem to Wigan Parry People Mover.

    #

    WTF is that logic. You're ****ing away a lot of money. I assume you have heard of embodied carbon of the trains and the infrastructure.

    Yeah, they could ditch them. If Wales wants to electrify it they can. If not, they can get the diesel trains. It is not our problem in England.

    Only half of the TPE's will become diesel if that was undertaken so it is not that big of a prize.

    Scarborough would get an extension on the York to Man Vic, whilst the Scarborough TPE would terminate at York.

    But is 8 trains per day enough to justify so many miles of electrification? I don't think it is and it is a devolved decision anyway. We should leave it to the devolved Welsh adminstration to decide if they can afford a London service for these towns.

    Check out the FoI that I put in and responded to by the DfT in January. It is on their website.

    This is the cunning thinking of electrification.

    The quick wins are the enhancements that will deliver additional capacity and replacements of the network. For example, the Morecambe and Windemere branches would be ideal candidates removing wasteful DMU use and allowing for services to be enhanced in the area. It then leaves Barrow as the only route in North West TPE that remains diesel post electrification. Leeds services can be diverted from Morecambe to serve Barrow instead.
     
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