Electrification after chat moss routes. etc.

[Stonesourscotty]

Ive heard of a Possible Skelmersdale to Upholland Extension coming off the Kirkby Diesal line which alot of people locally are pushing for but i think an Extension from Ormskirk would be better but and be better competition for Arriva.

 

[connor7777]

London Midland class 350 to be used between Crewe and Chester.
ATW can use the spare pacer on the HOW line to make 5 tpd in each direction possible.

Problem solved, every1 happy. Well in mid Wales anyway.

 

[tbtc]

Scarborough would get an extension on the York to Man Vic, whilst the Scarborough TPE would terminate at York

Makes a lot of sense. Scarborough isn't much use to Manchester/Liverpool, but is popular with West Yorkshire people. Doing as you say would mean continuing the Leeds link, plus providing a direct service to the Yorkshire Rivera to Bradford/ Halifax etc

Wire Guide Bridge - Copmanthorpe (York), plus the section from Micklefield to Hull (which also means HT services can move to EMU, plus Hambleton Chord potential) and all is good (apart from the problem of what to do with Middlesbrough)

This is the cunning thinking of electrification.

The quick wins are the enhancements that will deliver additional capacity and replacements of the network. For example, the Morecambe and Windemere branches would be ideal candidates removing wasteful DMU use and allowing for services to be enhanced in the area. It then leaves Barrow as the only route in North West TPE that remains diesel post electrification. Leeds services can be diverted from Morecambe to serve Barrow instead.

Agreed. Electrification should be targeted at the lines with the best replacement of DMUs (hence GOBLIN being a priority in my eyes). If the Manchester - Preston line is wired then Windermere/ Morcambe are no brainers

 

[Aictos]

Hurrah! "An awful lot" of DMUs = 8 x 170s (total 21 vehicles) that it takes to run Ipswich - Cambridge, Ipswich - Peterboro and Cambridge - Norwich. And for only 128 route miles of knitting!

Alternatively, the money could be spent on the 125 route miles from Bedford to Sheffield / Nottingham, freeing up almost a whole fleet of Meridians (143 vehicles) and 9 HSTs.

And/or, as PhilipW says, North Trans-Pennine Machester - York, which with a bit of selective service alteration would release most of the 185s.

Electrification has to be prioritised on the routes where the most diesel vehicles (and thus mileage) is replaced with electric mileage for the lowest cost.

My cunning plan would be to wire the MML in time for HS2 opening in the mid 2020s, then the displaced Pendolinos can find a new home on the twisty turny MML, which will also reduce journey times.

Actually if you do your sums right, you will see more then a couple 170s freed up, you would also be freeing up a number of Sprinters as well and have a diversionary routes possible for services between Ely and Peterborough/Ipswich and Norwich.

Any electrification would also benefit freight.

The 222s don't need moving just yet as they're still fairly newish and by ensuring the routes I've suggested means bettering route clearance rather then the only electrified diversionary route on the ECML being the Hertford Loop.

I rather money was spent on improving the existing railway then HS2 and HS3.

 

[PhilipW]

I think in reality Network Rail have their work cut out to implement the 4 schemes already announced by 2016.

Much as I, probably like everyone else on this site, would like further electrification in the North West, I don't think any further schemes are likely to be announced before about 2015.

If I was Minister of Transport, I would probably wait until then too. I'd just tell Network Rail to get on with the schemes already announced and make sure that they are achieved on time and on budget.

 

[bluenoxid]

Makes a lot of sense. Scarborough isn't much use to Manchester/Liverpool, but is popular with West Yorkshire people. Doing as you say would mean continuing the Leeds link, plus providing a direct service to the Yorkshire Rivera to Bradford/ Halifax etc

Wire Guide Bridge - Copmanthorpe (York), plus the section from Micklefield to Hull (which also means HT services can move to EMU, plus Hambleton Chord potential) and all is good (apart from the problem of what to do with Middlesbrough)

Agreed. Electrification should be targeted at the lines with the best replacement of DMUs (hence GOBLIN being a priority in my eyes). If the Manchester - Preston line is wired then Windermere/ Morcambe are no brainers

Middlesborough would be difficult but I guess it depends on Tees Valley Metro. If wires are virtually there and freight operators see potential, then there is something there. However, it is likely to remain an isolated branch of diesel operation. They might decide that cutting it back to York is a better way of doing it and sending the current Middlesborough service to Newcastle.

Hull would be something that I would expect to see dropped in after a number of other projects. After the current crop, I see fill ins in the North West, MML, London Fill in's, XC (Reading to Basingstoke and Brum to Oxford and Brum to Derby and Sheffield to Moorthorpe and Leeds to York), TPE and South East fill ins in whatever order they can be funded in.

Actually if you do your sums right, you will see more then a couple 170s freed up, you would also be freeing up a number of Sprinters as well and have a diversionary routes possible for services between Ely and Peterborough/Ipswich and Norwich.

Any electrification would also benefit freight.

The 222s don't need moving just yet as they're still fairly newish and by ensuring the routes I've suggested means bettering route clearance rather then the only electrified diversionary route on the ECML being the Hertford Loop.

I rather money was spent on improving the existing railway then HS2 and HS3.

Don't rubbish MML so quickly. The 222's have the option of electrification and Thameslink could be extended to Leicester if it was sought for. In addition, more units can be put on from St Pancras allowing for Leicester to be served by more services.

I can see the benefits of electrification for East Anglia but convincing freight operators to use electric has been very difficult, particularly with the 66 freight locomotive being so versatile.

 

[Bald Rick]

Actually if you do your sums right, you will see more then a couple 170s freed up, you would also be freeing up a number of Sprinters as well and have a diversionary routes possible for services between Ely and Peterborough/Ipswich and Norwich.

Any electrification would also benefit freight.

The 222s don't need moving just yet as they're still fairly newish and by ensuring the routes I've suggested means bettering route clearance rather then the only electrified diversionary route on the ECML being the Hertford Loop.

I rather money was spent on improving the existing railway then HS2 and HS3.

Well if my sums are wrong, then so are the NX diagrams. It takes 3 units to run Ipswich-Cambridge (2 car), 2 for Ipswich-Peterborough (3 car) and 3 for Norwich-Cambridge (3 car). Okay you can add in a maintenance spare.

Also, unless the Felixstowe branch is wired, no freight at all would run electrically hauled to Peterborough once the Ipswich chord is built.

As for the T&H, (can't bring myself to use 'GOBLIN') this is probably the most difficult electrification, for it's distance, in the country. Lots of viaduct, lots of bridges to clear (W10 clearance didn't touch some bridges which do need work for wires), an awkward tunnel, and most difficult of all lots of electrical sectioning to do because of all the electrified lines it crosses. Which is why it will cost £40m. To save 8 x 2 car units. And the freight boys aren't interested, at least when it comes to helping pay for it. Can't see this happening anytime soon.

However added to what is already happening, priority to Cardiff Valleys, MML, Oxford-Cov, Basingstoke to Reading (AC), Westerleigh to Bromsgrove, Bham-Derby, Neville Hill-Colton, then Chiltern lines and Bham Snow Hill to Worcester would get shot of most of the intensively used diesel lines. That lot is about 15-20 years work.

 

[Nym]

I'd say that one of the best schemes I can think of would be:

Wigan Wallgate - Wigan South Junctions
Wigan South Junctions - Ince - Hindley - Westhaughton - Lostock Junction (With new platforms at Lostock Junction for the Wigan Line, and extention of all platforms on the Manchester NW elecrified routes to at least 184m (8 x 23m) toward preston ready for doubled up 319s and 92m towards Wigan for single 319s.

Salford Crescent would also need some looking at, since service levels could soon be 14tph in each direction through Windsor Bridge Jcns

While we're on the subject of Greater Manchester, some more wiring that might sound silly on it's own but is quite sensible when you think about it, and add some more platforms at a couple of stations.

Victoria - Stalybridge (Increase the number of platforms at Stalybridge to 4)

Victoria - Ashburys (Two bay platforms to be added at Ashburys, or Four Track to Guide Bridge)

Victoria - Rochdale (With more bay platforms at Rochdale)

This would allow a great amount more capacity in Victoria, one of these may not be needed for the services still Diesel from the West.

Electric from west:

Wigan Wallgate via Bolton 3tph
Preston / Blackpool North via Bolton 1tph
Liverpool Lime Street via Earlstown 2tph

Possible additions:
Horwich Parkway via Bolton 2tph (Peak)

Diesel from the west:

Southport & Kirby via Wigan Wallgate and Walkden 2tph
Clitheroe via Blackburn and Bolton 1tph

You can proberbly guess where this is going to create a timetable where no services terminate from the West at Manchester Victoria, with only longer distance services from the East terminating, such as Manchester Victoria - Huddersfeld 1tph and Manchester Victoria - Leeds via Todmorden and/or Brighouse 3tph making use of platforms 1 and 2 in Victoria.

With wires from Ashburys to Victoria some of the Hadfeild / Glossop or Sheffeild services can run to or through victoria to have better cross manchester connections without having to change trains. For example, Glossop - Blackpool North.

I've ranted too much now, but some short extentions to Rochdale and Stalybridge can free up capacity in Victoria, and if Lostock - Wigan where electrified, only 3tph would be left as diesel through Bolton. (Manchester Airport - Barrow / Windermere and Manchester Victoria - Clitheroe and Manchester Airport - Southport), that would be increasing capacity as electric stock tends to have more similar charicteristics, and the diesels travel Crescent - Bolton non-stop.

Still, this idiot wants to see the Leigh - Tyldsley - Walkden route re-opened with 2tph Victoria - Leigh giving Walkden 4tph into Manchester...

Some other sensible areas would be extending the 3rd Rail from Kirby to Wigan Wallgate, and Southport - Wigan Wallgate. Make better use of dual voltage 319s anyone?

 

[tbtc]

Some other sensible areas would be extending the 3rd Rail from Kirby to Wigan Wallgate, and Southport - Wigan Wallgate. Make better use of dual voltage 319s anyone?

I argued for this in the past, it sounds a great idea. A reason given against it was that Merseyrail can only handle three coach trains (or cannot accommodate anything other than a 507/508, I'm not sure)... is this a myth? Is it only the "Northern" Merseyrail line with capacity issues, or is it the Birkenhead one, or both? I'd like clarification of this, as I'm not sure where the myth ends and the facts start...

 

[WatcherZero]

I have heard it said the underground platforms are the main limitation on the length of the trains and they cant use any longer vehicles.

 

[tbtc]

I have heard it said the underground platforms are the main limitation on the length of the trains and they cant use any longer vehicles.

On both the Northern Line and Wirral Line?

 

[ukrob]

The underground platforms (on both lines) are long enough for six 20m carriages (and six carriage trains are used on both lines every day), which, obviously, a 319 is less than - it has the same carriage length as a 507/508, and is the same width. And yes, I am aware that route clearance is not as simple as that

 

[First class]

Tunnel Clearance is NOT an issue for Merseyrail, (although units do need to have gangways). 66s have been through LVC Deep Level which is narrower and shorter than the Northern Line.

The platforms at LVC Northern Line can be extended by about 1-2 coaches towards the Hunts Cross direction without major work, but every other station would need similar work which would cost a lot of money and deep level (Wirral) stations in the City Centre would struggle to be extended without expensive tunnel work.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes if a train was longer than 3x20 then they couldnt double it up, why when they were looking at replacing the stock a couple of years back they were hesitant to move to 4 car trains instead thinking of replacing like with like.

 

[Aictos]

How about electrifying Ormskirk to Preston using the 3rd rail to reintroduce Preston to Liverpool direct services which got lost in 1973?

 

[WatcherZero]

Wouldnt that be slower than going via the Liverpool-Manchester line and Wigan?

 

[ukrob]

Tunnel Clearance is NOT an issue for Merseyrail, (although units do need to have gangways). 66s have been through LVC Deep Level which is narrower and shorter than the Northern Line.

Pretty irrelevant as a 66 is much narrower.

My point stands (which I know you were not directly disagreeing with) that stock needs to be cleared, it can't just be assumed something will be ok - and of course that goes for every route in the county.

 

[Aictos]

Wouldnt that be slower than going via the Liverpool-Manchester line and Wigan?

Well as the current journey is only 30 minutes from Ormskirk to Preston and it would just mean extending the current Ormskirk Merseyrail terminators though to Preston thus freeing up the DMU to be used elsewhere with Northern.

Merseyrail could run such a service to Ormskirk where it then becomes a Northern service to Preston much like the FCC/SouthEastern services.

 

[WatcherZero]

Thats a journey time of an hour exactly, going by Northwestern its 10 minutes faster without electrification, however as a service for those along the route its probably a good idea, im just saying end to end it would be slower.

 

[Statto]

Given all the cuts, i'd concentrate Electrifiying the GWRML, Chiltern & MML, if there's any money left after that i'd wire the non London main lines, such as XC.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Why not go for the second obvious one? As well as Ajax's excellent Southern fill-in proposal there's the Midland one.

Bedford to Sheffield via Alfreton.
Trent to Clay Cross.
Trent to Trowell.
Wellingborough to Corby.

And for the truly fearless (to fill in further gaps)
Nottingham to Grantham.
Sheffield to Doncaster.
Now you've got a joined-up scheme on the Midland as well as two worthwhile diversionary routes for when the ECML/MML gets blocked by engineering/incidents.

You could always throw a curved ball and go for Peterborough to Felixstowe through March - Ely - Chippenham Junction for the freight.
That lot'll cost about the same as HS2 and make more sense.

 

[cle]

How much freight runs on purely electrified routes, and what is the potential there?

Doing Anglia would free up some DMUs (Ipswich - Felixstowe, Ipswich - P'boro/Cambridge) but it's quite a lot of route miles at low frequency.

Ideally the STN-B'ham and Norwich-Liverpool could be electric somehow, but there are a lot of little gaps here and there where I think the BCR wouldn't add up - for example the stretch through Stamford.

There might be merit (and faster journeys) in having the primary London-Norwich services run from Kings Cross (second hourly Camb Cruiser?) - and if it survived, releasing the DMUs from the current Cambridge-Norwich train, which should really start from Stansted, I think.


Then again, you'd get far more for less from doing GOBLIN, and the DMUs released would be brand new! Rebuilding Gospel Oak with four platforms would be the trickiest part probably, although one cheapo option would be to remove Gospel Oak from the 'GOBLIN' route with Hampstead Heath as the main interchange, or have Gospel Oak as westbound only.

 

[Statto]

One way round the problems electrifying TPE[i'd electrify the Hull/Middlesbro' & Scarbro' branches using 3rd rail if its tricky to use wires] could be using 3rd rail rather than Wires, as i know there are a few tunnels on the route which could be a problem for Wires. I'd also use 3rd rail Man Ox Rd-Liverpool, mainly so Merseyrail could be extended replacing the Northern Rail stopper.

 

[bluenoxid]

Well as the current journey is only 30 minutes from Ormskirk to Preston and it would just mean extending the current Ormskirk Merseyrail terminators though to Preston thus freeing up the DMU to be used elsewhere with Northern.

Merseyrail could run such a service to Ormskirk where it then becomes a Northern service to Preston much like the FCC/SouthEastern services.

It is a very difficult route to pursue mainly due to the lack of frequency. Extending the service to the Southport line and terminating the Preston service at either Burscough (creating a robust hourly frequency) or Southport would greatly enhance connectivity. I would not say that a link to Liverpool is what Preston needs but a link to Southport.

I think that a 1.5 mile extension and south chord reinstatement would be the first option, with extension to Southport being the second phase. North chord reinstated with electrification to Manchester and then Preston forming any final phase. Of the projects not funded in the North West for Rail, I think Burscough south curve comes in a close second after Todmorden.

 

[LE Greys]

There have been plenty of places missed out in the past. The ECML was probably the worst. Whatever happened to:

• Wakefield-Sheffield(-Nottingham)
• Leeds-Harrogate
• Leeds-York
• Doncaster-Hull
• Micklefield/Temple Hirst-Selby-Gilberdyke
• Northallerton-Middlesbrough/Sunderland
• Eaglescliff-Darlington
• Darlington-Bishop Auckland (why not?)

Best not to do that again.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

If they really went for it they could do.

Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central.
Preston to Ormskirk.
Kirkby and Southport to Wigan.
Warrington Bank Quay to Chester and Halton Curve.
Crewe to Chester.
Sandbach to Northwich, then Northwich to WCML via Greenbank Curve.
OR. Sandbach to Northwich and all of the mid Cheshire line. Or convert to Manchester Metro.
Blackpool South.
Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury.
Hereford to Bromsgrove.
Stockport - Sheffield
Stoke - Derby

Interesting that the 3MG consortium have been awarded £9m to improve rail services to the depot in Widnes. Could this offer hope to the redoubling on the Halton Curve?
This document - http://www.merseyside.org.uk/dbimgs/SuperPort Study Exec(1).pdf - does seem to support additional rail access schemes in support of this venture. Could it be the case for freight that finally gets this stretch of rail open properly again?

 

[connor7777]

Crewe to Chester should be imediatly electrified, then work from there to the mid cheshire line, it then fills the gap incase of a diversion, so we electrify middlewich branch aswell.

 

[OxtedL]

Has it been a week since the last one of these threads already (no offence meant). I think fairly small schemes in the north are a good bet, we're not going to see large schemes for a while after GW me thinks.

Having said that...(coughs, gestures towards name, realises no one can see him doing this, types that he has done so in an attempt to reduce on going confusion, closes parentheses)

 

[telstarbox]

Apologies if this has been posted before but Network Rail have produced a map showing the complete network, with the electrified sections (as of 2009) highlighted:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...pe and miles/electrified track capability.pdf

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Did I really see the Blackpool South line mentioned here!!! Have you ever seen it recently? It passes the back of the Pleasure Beach looking like a ride from there that someone is trying to hide. This line should be part of the Blackpool tram system as far as Lytham St. Annes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Third rail Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool. Would that not clash with the lines proposed by the Ordsall Chord as far as Deansgate with a different power supply on those new paths?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Crewe to Chester...yes. But why not go the whole hog and electrify the whole route from Crewe to Holyhead. This would go down very well in the Welsh Assembly and give the ferry link to Eire a boost for long distance passengers that would travel from London and stations northward to Crewe on the WCML.