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Electrification announcement this summer

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DaveNewcastle

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. . . thanks for that on 3rd rail. It wouldnt be much of a problem on the Swindon-Gloucester line as it appears the top speed is 90mph, but it clearly is not ideal for the GWML!
I didn't mean that 3rd rail WILL be used in the tunnel, only that it is an option that could be considered, and only for the length of the tunnel's bore - nowhere else. Clearly it would require a change to policy and lots more expense, and they might not be acceptable changes.
 
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Kneedown

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Why Wakefield? The ECML is quicker, so why travel via the MML?

The ECML is quicker, but not everyone lives in London or indeed anywhere near the ECML.
Believe it or not people actually live in places like Kettering, Leicester, Derby etc, and i'm sure some of those travel to Leeds.
 

Skie

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Couldnt they single track the tunnel and move that track to the middle to use the extra height?

Would become a bottleneck, but I guess its better to have 125mph trains on a single line for a stretch than ones going 100mph and having to swap from OHLE to 3rd Rail and back to OHLE (can this be done in motion, or do they need to stop?)
 

MCR247

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The ECML is quicker, but not everyone lives in London or indeed anywhere near the ECML.
Believe it or not people actually live in places like Kettering, Leicester, Derby etc, and i'm sure some of those travel to Leeds.

But I mean, there arent many trains a day to Leeds so knowing the DfT they might not electrify it. But I'd love to be proven wrong :)
 

me123

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Single track the Severn Tunnel? Sounds like retrograde progress to me. I'm sure a lot of trains are timetabled to pass in the area. Even if you could retimetable trains for this, I'd imagine that you'd have very little recovery time for things going wrong and the resulting delays would just be embarrassing.

Out of curiosity, what chances are there for another Severn crossing? The cost would be huge, but you'd be able to electrify and possibly travel at 125mph. You'd also have the original tunnel, which would be a good diversionary route, especially for freight trains, and would allow for future service enhancement.

Electrification from Leeds-Sheffield is a good idea IMO. It gets a good bit of the Cross-Country route electrified for the future (I'd like to see them get "hybrid" trains in the future, which can run off OHLE and diesel as required), will be useful for MML electrification, and gets a good number of local routes under the wires as well.
 

Waverley125

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also atm the only point for long train maintenance on the MML is Neville Hill, which is why there are early morning services from and late evening services to Leeds. Unless a new depot is built, this will continue to be the case, so MML will have to be electrified to Leeds for stock allocation only.
 

anthony263

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Single track the Severn Tunnel? Sounds like retrograde progress to me. I'm sure a lot of trains are timetabled to pass in the area. Even if you could retimetable trains for this, I'd imagine that you'd have very little recovery time for things going wrong and the resulting delays would just be embarrassing.

Out of curiosity, what chances are there for another Severn crossing? The cost would be huge, but you'd be able to electrify and possibly travel at 125mph. You'd also have the original tunnel, which would be a good diversionary route, especially for freight trains, and would allow for future service enhancement.

The Government is planning to build the severn barrage, which i think will go ahead so they could quite easiliy build a line over the top of it and perhaps just have the high spead trains using it while the freight continues to go via the servern tunnel
 
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The Planner

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If you single tracked the tunnel, you would dramatically reduce capacity. It is effectively absolute block through the tunnel and takes approx. 4 minutes to travel through it. Dependent of the resulting signalling, you would have at least 6 minutes between passenger trains, more than likely 7 for robustness. Stick a freight in there and that rises even more....

If it all went wrong, you would have them stacked back to Parkway and Newport Id expect !!
 

Jan

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Doing a bit of googling, I've found this document by NR about the feasibility of a railway over a Severn barrage, which on page 5 also includes this statement about the Severn Tunnel:

Network Rail said:
The Western Electrification study includes consideration of electrification through the Severn Tunnel. The tunnel could be electrified if required.
 

MCR247

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also atm the only point for long train maintenance on the MML is Neville Hill, which is why there are early morning services from and late evening services to Leeds. Unless a new depot is built, this will continue to be the case, so MML will have to be electrified to Leeds for stock allocation only.

Thats just the HSTs isnt it, the 222s being at Derby
 

tbtc

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Why Wakefield? The ECML is quicker, so why travel via the MML? I'd electrify Leeds - York.

There's little point in electrifying Leeds - York (via Garforth) unless you also electrify Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds, plus York - Scarborough, Northallerton - Middlesbrough, and other "gaps". Whereas electrifying from Sheffield to Moorthorpe (near Wakefield) and to Doncaster would have a lot of advantages:

The local Sheffield - Rotherham - Leeds/ Doncaster stoppers would be EMUs

The Nottingham - Leeds service could be diverted via Moorthorpe and EMU run (or wires on the Barnsley line too?)

The existing EMT services to Leeds could continue as EMUs

There's then scope to divert ECML services via the MML during diversions etc

Plus, it'd mean XC trains running under wires from Edinburgh/ Newcastle to Derby, which would encourage electrification from Derby to Birmingham

It's not about running an alternative to the ECML (it's a lot slower from Leeds to London via the MML), but about filling gaps in and allowing a lot of local services to move to EMU running.
 

bluenoxid

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Whilst an electrification program rolls there are going to be gaps. What needs to be done is to use electrification in a bid to develop the trains and the route.
 

Waverley125

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e.g. Blackpool & Chester branches, allowing direct Pendo services. Plus Manchester-bolton-Preston to allow local EMUs and Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh services to be Pendo operated.
 

tbtc

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e.g. Blackpool & Chester branches, allowing direct Pendo services. Plus Manchester-bolton-Preston to allow local EMUs and Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh services to be Pendo operated.

...just like the Virgin EMUs from Birmingham to Glasgow/ Edinburgh?

Seriously though, the Manchester - Bolton - Preston - Blackpool line would be a very good one to electrify. Presumably the short Windemere branch could be tagged on to this too?

One rule of thumb I have is that if electrifying a section wouldn't mean ANY DMUs could be replaced by EMUs (e.g. Leeds - Garforth - York), then it's not exactly a priority...
 
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Doing a bit of googling, I've found this document by NR about the feasibility of a railway over a Severn barrage, which on page 5 also includes this statement about the Severn Tunnel:

Well thats very interesting, thanks!

Personally with all the environmental criticism (rightly or wrongly) Id be surprised if the barrage is ever built. They have been banging on about it since 1985, and nobody and quite bring themselves to do it. It would be wrong to plan the rail network on the back of a 'maybe'. On the other hand, it wouldnt be the first time now, would it?:)

Re Severn Bridge, am I right in thinking that all the line on the far side in that area has been ripped up? On the Gloucestershire side there is a small stub line thats left, I think kept in for Berkley power station. Im just idly wondering if its still feasible for a diversionary route.
 

MCR247

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There's little point in electrifying Leeds - York (via Garforth) unless you also electrify Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds, plus York - Scarborough, Northallerton - Middlesbrough, and other "gaps". Whereas electrifying from Sheffield to Moorthorpe (near Wakefield) and to Doncaster would have a lot of advantages:

The local Sheffield - Rotherham - Leeds/ Doncaster stoppers would be EMUs

The Nottingham - Leeds service could be diverted via Moorthorpe and EMU run (or wires on the Barnsley line too?)

The existing EMT services to Leeds could continue as EMUs

There's then scope to divert ECML services via the MML during diversions etc

Plus, it'd mean XC trains running under wires from Edinburgh/ Newcastle to Derby, which would encourage electrification from Derby to Birmingham

It's not about running an alternative to the ECML (it's a lot slower from Leeds to London via the MML), but about filling gaps in and allowing a lot of local services to move to EMU running.

But for NXEC diversions, they could use Leeds - York
 

tbtc

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But for NXEC diversions, they could use Leeds - York

True, but it's a long way to electrify when the only benefit (based on the current timetable) is for diversions (and the few NXEC 225s that run from Edinburgh to Doncaster at night, before heading back north to Leeds).

No point in doing it unless you're going to do Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds etc too...
 

43106

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Re. the Severn Bridge - am I right in thinking that all the line on the far side in that area has been ripped up? On the Gloucestershire side there is a small stub line thats left, I think kept in for Berkeley power station. I'm just idly wondering if its still feasible for a diversionary route.

Erm...BOTH sides of the Severn (where the Severn Bridge used to be) are in Gloucestershire! Also, you don't make it clear what you mean by "...the far side..." There is a stub line heading towards Berkeley Power station, but it was for the nearby Sharpness Docks. I don't think Berkeley used it. Judging from what I can see on Google Maps, the line is still there, but out of use.
The line did go over the Severn (there are still the remains of 4 or 5 bridge supports on the Sharpness side visible), crossed over the Gloucester - Chepstow line and joined it just north of Lydney. There was a station on this line near the western bank, but I don't know what it was called. The line over the Severn originally headed inland towards Lydbrook and Cinderford, but at a later date, a link was built to the Gloucester line. Sharpness station (there was one) closed in 1964, and the ORIGINAL station in Lydney for this line (called LYDNEY TOWN) closed in 1960, so that should give a rough idea when the line was closed/demolished.
I was at a course in Aylburton (just outside Lydney) a year ago, and one of the blokes running the course said that Bob Dylan had been photographed on the Severn Bridge. I've no idea if it was true, or whether he was laying it on thick with male bovine organic waste!!! I went down to the harbour at Lydney and looked for evidence of the bridge, but there is nothing visible at all.
 

The Planner

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Wrong Severn Bridge. Bob Dylan was photgraphed at the old Aust ferry just before the road bridge opened in about 1966.

The Sharpness docks branch isnt out of use, stuff still goes down there occasionally.
 

Mojo

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This talk about the Severn Barrage, as I understand it there are two main proposals, and the most favoured would run from Weston-super-Mare to south Cardiff - hardly an ideal place for a London to South Wales railway line!
 

43106

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Wrong Severn Bridge! Bob Dylan was photgraphed at the old Aust ferry just before the road bridge opened in about 1966.

Fair enough. Like I said, I thought there was some organic waste being spoken!

The Sharpness docks branch isnt out of use, stuff still goes down there occasionally.
Again, I wasn't sure. I went entirely by what I can see on Google Maps 'Satelite' images, and the track looks a bit rough, hence my 'out of use' comment.
 
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Erm...BOTH sides of the Severn (where the Severn Bridge used to be) are in Gloucestershire! Also, you don't make it clear what you mean by "...the far side..." There is a stub line heading towards Berkeley Power station, but it was for the nearby Sharpness Docks. I don't think Berkeley used it. Judging from what I can see on Google Maps, the line is still there, but out of use.
The line did go over the Severn (there are still the remains of 4 or 5 bridge supports on the Sharpness side visible), crossed over the Gloucester - Chepstow line and joined it just north of Lydney. There was a station on this line near the western bank, but I don't know what it was called. The line over the Severn originally headed inland towards Lydbrook and Cinderford, but at a later date, a link was built to the Gloucester line. Sharpness station (there was one) closed in 1964, and the ORIGINAL station in Lydney for this line (called LYDNEY TOWN) closed in 1960, so that should give a rough idea when the line was closed/demolished.
I was at a course in Aylburton (just outside Lydney) a year ago, and one of the blokes running the course said that Bob Dylan had been photographed on the Severn Bridge. I've no idea if it was true, or whether he was laying it on thick with male bovine organic waste!!! I went down to the harbour at Lydney and looked for evidence of the bridge, but there is nothing visible at all.

Sorry, I wasnt very clear was I? :) Im in South Glos, so we get into the mentality that everything the other side of the Severn Is Wales, which is completely unfair of me.
Anyway, you answered my questions, so thanks for that. It clearly looks unfeasible now. The bit about Bob Dylan is completely new to me though. I DO vaguely recall something about the Aust ferry though.
 

43106

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Anyway, you answered my questions, so thanks for that.

My pleasure. Glad to help. By the way, are you in Wootton-under-Edge?

The bit about Bob Dylan is completely new to me though. I DO vaguely recall something about the Aust ferry though.

OK, OK, I get the message! Bob Dylan did NOT pose for photographs on the Severn Bridge near Lydney. I will inform certain staff of an Endoscopy company at Aylburton, just outside Lydney.
 
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My pleasure. Glad to help. By the way, are you in Wootton-under-Edge?

No, but not too far from there. I live just outside Tetbury.

OK, OK, I get the message! Bob Dylan did NOT pose for photographs on the Severn Bridge near Lydney. I will inform certain staff of an Endoscopy company at Aylburton, just outside Lydney.

LOL, if one thing life has taught me, thats to never say never. For all I know Bob Dylan might have danced stark naked on top of the last train across. Not a pleasant thought though, Ill grant you.:)
 

Metroland

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A compelling case for the first big electrification programme for 20 years will be presented on Friday by the company that runs Britain’s railways – a move that would cut rail costs and lead to faster, more reliable and cleaner journeys.

The Network Rail consultation will say electrification of much of the Great Western route from London to western England and Wales and of the Midland main line from London to Sheffield makes most sense. Neither project would need any government grant or subsidy.

Geoff Hoon, transport secretary, has welcomed the report, calling it a “valuable step”. The Department for Transport is due to decide later this year on a resumption of rail electrification.

“The government is committed to electrification because of the benefits it brings to rail passengers, through more reliable and comfortable electric trains and a reduction in the country’s carbon emissions and the cost of running the railway,” Mr Hoon said.

He is likely to come under pressure from train operators to decide fast in order to lift uncertainty over whether new electric or diesel trains should be ordered for routes.

The last big electrification project was on the London-Edinburgh east coast main line, authorised in 1984 and completed in 1991. Since privatisation in the mid-1990s, only further small sections of line have been electrified, usually to provide extra routes for electric trains round engineering work. Only 40 per cent of the network is electrified, a far lower proportion than in countries such as Germany and France.

Electric trains cost 33 per cent less per mile to maintain than diesel trains, the document says. They cost 45 per cent less in fuel, 18 per cent less to lease and produce less damage to track. Passengers should also enjoy shorter journeys thanks to electric trains’ superior acceleration.

While emissions vary between train types, carbon dioxide emissions per mile from electric trains can be less than half those for comparable diesels.

The cost of putting up electric wires on the Midland main line from Bedford to Nottingham and Sheffield, and on the Great Western route from Maidenhead to Bristol and Swansea is likely to be relatively low. The Midland route cost would probably be about £100m and the Great Western about £120m.

However, neither figure includes the cost of new electric trains, any new signalling required or alterations to bridges and tunnels. There are 90 structures on the Midland main line that would require alterations, while on the Great Western main line the main obstacle is the four-and-a-half-mile long Severn tunnel, which leaks heavily.

The east coast main line project cost £306m in 1984 prices, including new trains and signalling, although many observers believe savings on the overhead line equipment in that project have contributed to its unreliability since.

Apart from the Midland and Great Western routes, the document identifies some projects – including electrification of much of the inter-city cross-country network – whose benefits outweigh costs to the government by five or more times.

A government subsidy would be required, however, because many of the benefits would be non-financial ones such as a cleaner environment.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/20928314-40cc-11de-8f18-00144feabdc0.html
 

37401

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this has been on the cards for some time now, im hopeing that FGW will keep the HST`s but i have a feeling they`ll favor the SET (in my opinion its a load of crap) as we are talking about HST`s i think that the TOC`S tat have the HST will give them to other TOC`s such as NXEC giving XC theres as they have a good relationship
 

jopsuk

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See, one of the intriguing things with the SET is that as electrification rolls out, it will be possible to convert fully diesel ones into hybrids, or hybrids into fully electric, simply by replacing the diesel power head (it really won't be a loco, unlike the HST) with a passenger carrying driving car- the diagrams shown so far indicate the carriages in between will be the same, regardless, complete with 25kV busline along the roof. The only real flaw in the concept as I see it are the 25m cars, and the rather low power output of the hybrid sets.

Electrification, from a passenger point of view, is vastly superior.
 

Turbostar

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Going back to the Severn Tunnel bit, my recogning is they'll build a new crossing or tunnel for electrification, like has already been said there is no way the current tunnel can be electrified without major modification & reconstruction. Also, reading about the Severn Tunnel on Wikipedia, it says at the end the tunnel is closed every sat night:

"As the tunnel has aged, every Saturday night the tunnel is closed to carry out inspections of the tunnel to ensure the safety of the passengers that use it."

I think this will be the idea opportunity, considering it's age, to build a new crossing or tunnel, & possibly use the current tunnel for freight or diversions.
 

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anthony263

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Going back to the Severn Tunnel bit, my recogning is they'll build a new crossing or tunnel for electrification, like has already been said there is no way the current tunnel can be electrified without major modification & reconstruction. Also, reading about the Severn Tunnel on Wikipedia, it says at the end the tunnel is closed every sat night:

"As the tunnel has aged, every Saturday night the tunnel is closed to carry out inspections of the tunnel to ensure the safety of the passengers that use it."

I think this will be the idea opportunity, considering it's age, to build a new crossing or tunnel, & possibly use the current tunnel for freight or diversions.

well hopefully if the severn barrage goes ahead then they could run the railway over that as i dont think a bridge will be ok as the 2 severn bridges are frequently clsoed because of bad weather and would it be possible to build another tunnel under the river severn?
 
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