• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Electrification at Bolton not fully utilised?

Status
Not open for further replies.

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,530
Being a cynic, I guess that having Bolton on the departure board at Eus is simply not prestigious enough.
Nothing to do with prestige - just that running trains between Euston and Manchester Piccadilly is a straightforward operationally sensible approach which gives the majority of people time to join the train in the terminal platforms at Manchester Piccadilly. People have fifteen minutes to join a train sat in a terminal platform at Manchester Piccadilly. They would have two minutes at most on platform 13. Same with alighting.

for people with a mobility problem
...I would imagine that having a long-distance train in the platform with no pressure to board that train quickly is much better than having a short time to board.

With so many Eus to Man trains, one per hour or even one per 2 hours could continue to Bolton.
The timetable for trains continuing beyond Manchester Piccadilly to Bolton would need to match the timetable for ones going south to fill the gap in the timetable making timetabling more complicated.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
More to do with that Northern have to pay Avanti a fee every time they call as it's a dispatched station, whereas Wallgate is a Northern operated station. North Western is now only used if a 153 could be in formation or the unit is going to/ from Springs Branch.

If ever there was a good reason to renationalise the railways, it would be to do away with these petty inconveniences of who owns what. A joined up national network is what we need for starters.

It's all an artificial money-go-round to the same DfT bottom line anyway. Moving trains from one station to another only results in a cost accounted in one place being accounted a different way instead. i.e. £5 "lost" by Avanti not being paid to dispatch is £5 "saved" by Northern not having to pay them, and it cancels out at the bottom line of DfT.
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,223
What applies to Bolton also applies to St. Helens. I see that under the current timetable all the TPE trains which pass though St. Helens Central call there but that was not the case pre-Covid. We also have a southbound Glasgow - Liverpool booked to go via, and call at Lea Green, I assume for reasons of pathing or route knowledge.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,553
Location
Mold, Clwyd
If ever there was a good reason to renationalise the railways, it would be to do away with these petty inconveniences of who owns what. A joined up national network is what we need for starters.
The railway was never fully "joined up" even in BR days, and was diverging steadily towards the end (with Intercity, NSE and Regional).
The railways have always been divided up into districts/regions/sectors with differing service policies and pricing.
They will always find a means to keep local folk off long distance trains, by things like supplements, stopping patterns or time restrictions.
These days the Metro Mayors also want to run things on their patch, sometimes in conflict with the national policies.
Wales and Scotland also have their own rules on their patch.
You can be sure Merseytravel wants a different railway to TfGM, and the same applies countrywide.
The various "private" (not very) operators are only doing what their paymasters tell them to do.
Limited TPE stops at Bolton are part of that.

Looking at France and most European countries, the long-distance operation is quite separate from the regional/local ones, even though they are notionally "nationalised" into the same umbrella body.
A TER fare in France won't let you on a TGV, and you have to book a specific service level and pay the appropriate fare in most countries.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
Going south from Bolton, has never been completely straightforward. Even now, the 'journey' from platform 13/14 at Man Picc to the other platforms is far from straightforward, especially for people with a mobility problem (i.e. me). I have seen many discussions about having Euston trains continuing to Bolton and why not? With so many Eus to Man trains, one per hour or even one per 2 hours could continue to Bolton. I have noticed in the past, many people leaving a Eus train to make their way to platform 14 and I have also noticed when a packed train arrives at Bolton, around half or even more passengers alight. It's not difficult to conclude that there is a market. Being a cynic, I guess that having Bolton on the departure board at Eus is simply not prestigious enough.

As for Preston, much easier than going South, but on the few unfortunate times (I hate Preston station with a passion) I have taken a train from there, an extraordinary number have included a last second platform change, which now would mean I probably miss it. The planners also make the assumption that everyone is savvy with changes. Again at Preston I am invariably asked a question about connections and platforms by a complete stranger.


If ever there was a good reason to renationalise the railways, it would be to do away with these petty inconveniences of who owns what. A joined up national network is what we need for starters.
Some of the Bolton trains go through to Stockport, where it's often a same-platform or cross-platform interchange for London.

Did BR ever run through Bolton-London trains? Answer is no I think. Although P13/14 is long enough for a Pendolino, the slow access to these trains would make these congested platforms even worse.
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
5,752
Location
Wilmslow
Did BR ever run through Bolton-London trains? Answer is no I think. Although P13/14 is long enough for a Pendolino, the slow access to these trains would make these congested platforms even worse.
I think that BR did have through services Bolton-London, but only prior to the WCML electrification, and as a portion which joined/split at Stockport and went via Manchester Victoria. All from memory, could be faulty, someone else will doubtless correct me in due course.

I used to work with people who were terrified of changing at Birmingham New Street, doubtless they would think the same of changing at Manchester Piccadilly for Bolton. But they will be the minority, for whom the railway does not really cater well.
 
Last edited:

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Did BR ever run through Bolton-London trains? Answer is no I think. Although P13/14 is long enough for a Pendolino, the slow access to these trains would make these congested platforms even worse.

Euston no.

XC yes (counting Kensington Olympia on the way to Brighton once - later twice - per day, and a Sunday morning XC that started at Paddington)
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
Why do you say Lockerbie has to be served? I can't imagine many people wanting to travel from south Lancashire to Lockerbie or vice versa. Even without this route it has a fantastic service for a village of under 5,000 population

A number of enthusiasts like to think of trains as "binary" - e.g. "this is InterCity"/ "this is not InterCity" - "this train is "Suburban" / "this train is long distance". Really, though, they are often a bit of everything. The Long Distance High Speed service from London often become just another local train stopping at local stations for local passengers when it gets beyond Dundee/ Perth/ Chester/ Plymouth etc. Some smaller places have a much better quality of service than you might think they deserve because there's no "local" service on the line, so Long Distance High Speed stuff stops there instead (Diss, Berwick upon Tweed etc). That's just how it is, and trying to tidy things up to force services to fit a particular box seems a waste of time (e.g. this fixation with everything meeting a certain definition that it might do in Germany)

I think that the Manchester - Glasgow/ Edinburgh services are the "fast" services from Manchester to Preston (compared to the Wigan trains which handle Farnworth/ Moses Gate etc and the Blackpool trains which handle the stops at Adlington/ Chorley etc)...

...but the TPE services become the "slow" services north of Preston, picking up a large percentage of stops at Oxenholme/ Penrith/ Lockerbie (compared to the generally faster London/ Birmingham - Scotland services). However, those London/ Birmingham - Scotland services are the only trains between Warrington and Wigan, which is why they provide a local service there by stopping at both (since there's nothing else to).

Similarly, TPE are the "fast" trains from Liverpool/ Manchester to Leeds/ York, but then the "slow" trains north of York (hence picking up a large proportion of the Northallerton/ Thirsk/ Chester le Street stops, compared to the generally faster London - Newcastle services)

I suppose the question is, if TPE didn't serve Lockerbie (and Chester le Street etc) then what would? Is there space for a "local" service from Carlisle to Glasgow (in between the slow freight struggling up Beattock and the faster Pendolinos on the line)? Would that be a price worth paying to shave a couple of minutes off the TPE service?

And if the Scottish services stopped at Bolton then would they need to be longer to accommodate short distance passengers on PTE-subsidised tickets crowding onto them (given that passengers in Manchester heading to Bolton may well prefer a swanky 397 over the Sprinters that still provide a number of Bolton services but Glasgow passengers have no real alternative, so if they can't get on board because of Bolton passengers then they are stuck). There are/were similar problems at places like Reading and Milton Keynes where "local" passengers obviously prefer the fancy long distance trains to their slower EMUs on "local" services.

You could insist on Bolton being pick up/set down only, but it's only about fifteen minutes from central Manchester so would a Guard really get round in time to check tickets, given that the trains are over a hundred metres long?

My bigger priority for Bolton would be electrification of the Wigan line, permitting faster/ longer trains with better acceleration - since the current timetable means act around half the Manchester - Bolton services are still diesel operated (why spend all that money on wiring a line and then continue to run so many polluting diesels?).
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,531
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I think that the Manchester - Glasgow/ Edinburgh services are the "fast" services from Manchester to Preston (compared to the Wigan trains which handle Farnworth/ Moses Gate etc and the Blackpool trains which handle the stops at Adlington/ Chorley etc)...

...but the TPE services become the "slow" services north of Preston, picking up a large percentage of stops at Oxenholme/ Penrith/ Lockerbie (compared to the generally faster London/ Birmingham - Scotland services). However, those London/ Birmingham - Scotland services are the only trains between Warrington and Wigan, which is why they provide a local service there by stopping at both (since there's nothing else to).

Similarly, TPE are the "fast" trains from Liverpool/ Manchester to Leeds/ York, but then the "slow" trains north of York (hence picking up a large proportion of the Northallerton/ Thirsk/ Chester le Street stops, compared to the generally faster London - Newcastle services)

The UK does tend to go for the London commuter style "fast to X then all stations to Y" approach, but if we're playing the classic German game I'd say Avanti West Coast's fast Scottish service would be ICE, and the TPE WCML service IC or IR. It's definitely a secondary service.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
You could insist on Bolton being pick up/set down only, but it's only about fifteen minutes from central Manchester so would a Guard really get round in time to check tickets, given that the trains are over a hundred metres long?

And with the increased capacity of the 397s now available, what problem are pick up/set down restrictions there to solve any more?

I'd argue there are other services at other "smaller satellite towns just outside of a major demand centre with inadequate capacity trains" where imposition of pick up / set down would be more justified than at Bolton.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
The UK does tend to go for the London commuter style "fast to X then all stations to Y" approach, but if we're playing the classic German game I'd say Avanti West Coast's fast Scottish service would be ICE, and the TPE WCML service IC or IR. It's definitely a secondary service.

That's exactly what I mean about fixating with trying to pigeonhole services.

TPE goes from being the "fastest" service on some sections (Liverpool/ Manchester - Leeds/York, Manchester - Preston) but then becomes the "slowest" service after that (York - Newcastle, Preston - Glasgow) - that seems to work pretty well, regardless of whether it meets some binary definition

And with the increased capacity of the 397s now available, what problem are pick up/set down restrictions there to solve any more?

I'd argue there are other services at other "smaller satellite towns just outside of a major demand centre with inadequate capacity trains" where imposition of pick up / set down would be more justified than at Bolton.

I used to commute from Sheffield to Leeds each day - there'd be dozens of people trying to cram onto the crowded northbound Voyager at Wakefield each morning, but that was okay because the Sheffield passengers were already on board

It was a nightmare in the evening since you'd often end up stuck in the vestibule whilst Wakefield passengers were sat down - but then having to push past you to get off. So XC changed the rules to make Wakefield "pick up only", which was ignored by lots of Wakefield passengers anyway (because what Guard is going to get down a crowded Voyager in that time) but disadvantaged people doing a journey like Edinburgh/ Newcastle/ York - Wakefield (since they couldn't book a seat for their journey, since the service didn't officially stop there for people to get off).

So, in the case of the TPE service at Bolton, you'd have the strange situation where someone could get on the train at Manchester Airport and get off at Piccadilly/ Oxford Road, but not take the service to Bolton in the evening rush hour even though it stopped there, which would probably confuse a lot of people.

Either stop the trains there or don't IMHO - having restrictions on who can board/alight will confuse a lot of people whilst not actually deterring a lot of others.

Maybe that's an idea for a (separate) thread - "Stations/ Services That Should Have Pick Up/ Set Down Restrictions"?
 

Djgr

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
1,638
Wigan was served by TP Manchester-Scotland trains partly to provide a connection from Liverpool (which is a bit bigger than Bolton).
Liverpool now has its own TP service to Glasgow, so less need for Manchester trains to call at Wigan.
And because of Covid, in the last year all services have been reduced from the 2019 timetable, and some places have lost out more than others.
There was also the issue of overcrowding on TP services by local passengers, which caused a lot of complaints.
The general idea of electrification was for Northern services to be increased, and lengthened, so less need for TP to call.
Things haven't turned out quite like that though.
And we haven't mentioned the Castlefield problem yet.
It is worth remembering that the Liverpool to Scotland direct service is fairly limited and so plenty of requirement remains for changes at Wigan.
 
Joined
3 Mar 2020
Messages
353
Location
Furness
If I was to suggest Wigan lose it's direct hourly Glasgow and fast London services (ie. the one via the Trent Valley), with these services passing through so as not to unnecessarily add to journey times and an easy change at Preston and Manchester or Crewe for the Scotland/southbound services, how would people see that? That is a similar situation for Bolton right now.

BR tried to remove the Wigan North Western stops on some Anglo-Scottish services in the late 1980's and there was local uproar. The local press and MP all got heavily involved.
 

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
2,904
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
Is not the failure to complete the Wigan-Bolton electrification scheme one of the reasons why electrification at Bolton is not fully utilised? Please can someone in the know enlighten me as to the official current status of this proposal - is it cancelled, shelved or merely deferred? I am asking for facts, not speculative replies.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,553
Location
Mold, Clwyd
BR tried to remove the Wigan North Western stops on some Anglo-Scottish services in the late 1980's and there was local uproar. The local press and MP all got heavily involved.
If you go back to the 1974 electrification, most of the Birmingham-Scotland services were non-stop Crewe-Preston, and also many of the Euston-Glasgows.
There were enough "Blackpool" (also Lancaster and Carlisle) terminators to serve Wigan, Warrington, Lancaster and Cumbria.
Over the lean years, with reduced services, the remaining trains began stopping at these stations and now nearly all do (skipping pattern in Cumbria).
The intention has been for some time to revert to the older pattern, speeding up Scotland services and using new terminators for Wigan/Warrington/Lancaster etc.
But all we got were a few new VT Blackpools (the other paths went to Grand Central who gave up their plan recently).
Avanti's new trains coming next year have mostly been earmarked for London-Liverpool rather than London-Preston.
We'll have to see how the service develops after Covid, but HS2 will force a new pattern on the line.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
.
We'll have to see how the service develops after Covid, but HS2 will force a new pattern on the line.

Which will indeed put Wigan calls into a Euston-Preston/Lancaster service, with Anglo Scots HS2 services all running non-stop Old Oak Common to Preston.

Wigan's Scotland link will be retained by the Birmingham-Scotland service.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,818
Location
Yorks
Having caught the Anglo-Scottish TPE through Bolton a couple of times, it does surprise me that more don't stop there.

It's quite important as a local hub and the non-stop trains seem tocrawl through there anyway.
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
9,994
Location
here to eternity
Having caught the Anglo-Scottish TPE through Bolton a couple of times, it does surprise me that more don't stop there.

It's quite important as a local hub and the non-stop trains seem tocrawl through there anyway.

Thanks for getting us back on topic.

A reminder to posters that this thread is to specifically discuss service provision at Bolton, not anywhere else.

thanks
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Having caught the Anglo-Scottish TPE through Bolton a couple of times, it does surprise me that more don't stop there.

It's quite important as a local hub and the non-stop trains seem tocrawl through there anyway.

it was to manage crowding on the 4 car Class 350s. With the 397s now in full service, calls would have possibly have been reinstated by now in more services if it weren’t for you-know-what taking priority over the last 13 months.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,818
Location
Yorks
it was to manage crowding on the 4 car Class 350s. With the 397s now in full service, calls would have possibly have been reinstated by now in more services if it weren’t for you-know-what taking priority over the last 13 months.

That would explain it !
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,553
Location
Mold, Clwyd
it was to manage crowding on the 4 car Class 350s. With the 397s now in full service, calls would have possibly have been reinstated by now in more services if it weren’t for you-know-what taking priority over the last 13 months.
TPE used to double up 350s on a few services, at peak (Scotland) times.
I don't think there is any intention to double up 397s, even for Covid, and there aren't enough anyway with the increased services (inc to Liverpool).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top