Electrification for CP6-what could we expect to see?

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by 59CosG95, 15 Mar 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,429
    Joined:
    18 Aug 2013
    Location:
    WIM/PBO
    Judging by the fact that the GWML wiring was announced in July '09 (can't find when the NW wiring was announced) as a project for CP5, what schemes can we expect to be announced this July, if we get anything similar to July '09? Edinburgh-Aberdeen? N. Wales Coast? West Country? SR conversion?
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    12,690
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    It seems to have become traditional for the two annual budget speeches to announce some new infrastructure project, so we might get something next week.
    Hull perhaps?

    The July 2009 electrification announcement was because of a big change in DfT rolling stock policy - no more DMUs or diesel-only IEPs.
    The NW electrification was announced on the same day, but only Liverpool-Manchester at that stage - by the autumn statement it had grown to the triangle, and later still they added Blackpool.
    The upcoming 2010 election also had an impact, and might well again this year with the 2015 election hoving into view.

    Actually July 2009 was after the start of CP4, so NR had to rework all its plans.
    The CP5 plans are now fixed, so theoretically nothing can be added for several years until the CP6 HLOS gets published in 2017.
    But in reality, the projects are not all cast in concrete and there might well be some significant changes (eg in electric spine).

    There is of course an NR list of preferred schemes, but the political list might be quite different.
    Expect the "benefits" to be spread widely across the country, to satisfy local lobbying.
    Which reminds me that NR has not published its updated electrification RUS as promised.
    They are probably fed up with DfT picking schemes they hadn't thought of.
     
    Last edited: 15 Mar 2014
  4. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

    Messages:
    5,576
    Joined:
    6 Jul 2012
    This has come up a few times before:

    http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=68742&highlight=XC+electrification

    http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89279

    In the second of those I suggested:

     
  5. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    19,376
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
  6. MidlandMainlie

    MidlandMainlie Member

    Messages:
    637
    Joined:
    5 Aug 2011
    It is interesting to Compare the BCR of schemes committed to for CP5 to those not committed to form the 2009 Electrification RUS:-


    On that basis I expect Cross Country electrification to be at the heart of plans for CP6 plus perhaps the Berks and Hants and South Western mainline, at least by the end of CP7 (assuming the BCR's have not changed significantly since 2009).

    The Snow Hill lines in an interesting one, it can't be justified on it own but factor in rolling stock and an ageing diesel fleet and it's electrification if combined with filling in the Chiltern Mainline (parts of which will be done as part of the electric spine) would free up a lot of 172's, 165's and 168's for use elsewhere.
     
  7. BantamMenace

    BantamMenace Member

    Messages:
    540
    Joined:
    2 Dec 2013
    I think cross country electrification will be announced at a convenient period for keeping jobs at the new hitachi plant once IEP is nearing completion.

    A case of "oh, we're electrifying this and we've order a new IEP2 fleet from hitachi to save x jobs" politicians dream
     
  8. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    12,690
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    I don't think the DfT believes the NR BCR figures.
    Otherwise, why authorise TP and Electric Spine ahead of others?
    Those "infinite" ones are particularly hard to believe (ie cheaper to electrify than not).
    Two big factors in any new schemes which NR can't assess: (a) inter-regional politics, (b) rolling stock cascade policy
    The DfT "short list" issued in December is currently the best guide for the next scheme:
     
    Last edited: 15 Mar 2014
  9. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,429
    Joined:
    18 Aug 2013
    Location:
    WIM/PBO
    Chester and Sheffield, eh? Might be hinting that NWCL (N. wales coast line) and MML wiring aren't too far off! Glad to see that the North is getting its long overdue investment-more than what can be said for the West Country!
     
  10. GRALISTAIR

    GRALISTAIR Established Member

    Messages:
    3,053
    Joined:
    11 Apr 2012
    Location:
    Dalton Georgia USA
    Derby to Plymouth would be nice for this and achieve other goals. It would need to be in combination with Sheffield -York to have maximum benefit. :D
     
  11. snowball

    snowball Established Member

    Messages:
    4,707
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2013
    Location:
    Leeds
  12. GRALISTAIR

    GRALISTAIR Established Member

    Messages:
    3,053
    Joined:
    11 Apr 2012
    Location:
    Dalton Georgia USA
    I just have to believe that Selby-Hull will be announced.
     
  13. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

    Messages:
    5,576
    Joined:
    6 Jul 2012
    The South Western main line should be fairly high BCR as from Basingtoke to Sailsbury will have already been cleared for larger freight, so there should be no structures that need altering (is also true of the line from Salisbury to Southampton, so I would exect the Sailsbury 6 services could also go over to being run by EMU's as an easy win),

    Add to that, even if the wires only make it Yeovil (which would release about half of SWT's DMU fleet) that could realse significant numbers of DMU's (say 45 coaches) which could be useable until about 2028 (in reality only one control period's difference, but could be very useful) which would be able to move away from a route where they run for a significant distance where there is already a third rail. However, even if the wires only just make it to Exeter before the 159's reach the end of their life, that is a lot of DMU's (112 coaches) which do not need to be replaced.
     
  14. JamesRowden

    JamesRowden Established Member

    Messages:
    1,500
    Joined:
    31 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Ilfracombe
    A network rail document stating how the CP5 projects are to be done (NR CP5 Enhancements Plan) had Sheffield to Doncaster as being electrifed as part of the Midland Mainline electrification (which seems like common sense). Oxford to Coventry was on the list as a possibly to be done later. Southampton to Basingstoke DC to AC conversion was not commited to but an asesment into the benefits of doing so is a commitment in CP5.

    The release of the document was covered in http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=94112.

    I think this differs from the HLOS since the industry has analysed each of the politicians' strategies and created a plan that is a slight modification in order to produce better outputs.
     
  15. Surreyman

    Surreyman Member

    Messages:
    531
    Joined:
    29 Jan 2012
    Agree the main Cross-country network (as per 2009 Electrification document), has to be high on the priority list, the issues with Cross-Country are: -
    Aberdeen, Poole, Guildford, Penzance would remain diesel/Dc and would presumably require Bi-mode trains (another for order for IEPs!) but the real issue would be finding a home for the displaced Voyagers, ok displace 170s on Cardiff/Nottingham/Stansted but where else for 125mph trains?

    Given the current North-South London versus the rest investment debate, if come 2019, we have the Labour party in power, they might be inclined to invest more in the North and Midlands.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Given that the replacement EMUs would have to be 25Kv/750V dc, that would probably rule out bi-Modes (too complicated and expensive) so the route would have to be 100% electrified to make economic sense, also would need to be re-doubled before electrification.
    Agree would release decent number of good quality DMUs, although would be @35 years old!
     
  16. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

    Messages:
    3,140
    Joined:
    20 Mar 2011
    Location:
    Birmingham
    I thought the Snow Hill lines would have a higher BCR than 1, considering all the units it could release over a shortish area. What exactly keeps it low?
     
  17. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,429
    Joined:
    18 Aug 2013
    Location:
    WIM/PBO
    Transport Scotland said a few months back that they might like them for long distance services e.g. Edinburgh-Inverness. I'm sure Chiltern and ATW could take them on to replace their loco-hauled trains.

    Which route is this? I thought the entire XC network was 2-track.
     
  18. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    12,690
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    Coventry-Leamington is largely single track.
     
  19. anthony263

    anthony263 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,233
    Joined:
    19 Aug 2008
    Location:
    South Wales
    I cant really see Network rail annoucing many more schemes until they have nearly completed most of the current schemes.

    The south wales valleys were supposed to be done in cp5 now looks like most of the network wont be wired unti around 2024 although the Maesteg & Ebbw Vale branches should be completed before 2020 if the GWML electrifiction continues on course.
     
  20. jimm

    jimm Established Member

    Messages:
    4,545
    Joined:
    6 Apr 2012
    I've said it before in other threads where this has come up, so I'll say it again, so what if the top speed of a Voyager is 125mph? They, and other trains that can reach 125mph, spend quite a lot of the time now not running at 125mph. One of the key factors in their ability to cut journey times is better acceleration than previous types of diesel train. Same goes for 180s, which in my neck of the woods can claw back huge chunks of delays on Cotswold Line services west of Oxford, where the maximum speeds allowed vary between 75mph and 100mph, while slower-accelerating Turbos and HSTs can't. Put Voyagers on the key Scottish internal routes and you would release 170s to replace older dmus elsewhere and get the chance to cut journey times as well, even if they don't hit 125mph.

    And talking of releasing newer dmus, I'd agree with you on this one. I think the BCR calculation was done simply on the traditional methods, rather than looking at the big picture. And of course it isn't just the Snow Hill Lines group. If you do these, and with Oxford-Leamington wired, then not wiring the Chiltern Line south of Banbury, also releasing modern dmus, would be daft. Similarly, if the Worcester area and on to Hereford is wired, then Cotswold Line electrification between Oxford and Worcester looks like a no-brainer as well, and if XC wires go to Bristol and Cardiff, then Swindon-Gloucester as well, eliminating GW express operation on diesel except for whatever type of train is working to the West Country.

    The Electric Spine budget in Network Rail's Strategic Business Plan: Definition of CP5 enhancements from January last year specifically includes £38m for capacity enhancements, aka redoubling, of Leamington-Coventry.

    Given the lead-up time involved in preparing for electrification, which will also require resignalling in most cases, announcements of further work will have to be a lot sooner than that. Eg the initial Electric Spine announcement was made 20 months ago but even Oxford-Bletchley wires are going to be near the end of CP5, six or seven years after that announcement.
     
    Last edited: 16 Mar 2014
  21. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    12,690
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    As I understand it, there will still be a 1.5 mile single line section north of Kenilworth, which was never previously double tracked.
    NR's plans in the wider Coventry area are also uncertain.
     
  22. 47802

    47802 On Moderation

    Messages:
    3,455
    Joined:
    8 Oct 2013
    I'm not convinced that XC will be a high priority in CP6 possibly more in CP7, given that the voyager fleet is likely to be around for at least another 15 years, possibly XC capacity can be increased and HST's replaced in the medium term by a small fleet of hybrid IEP's or get some of Midlands 222's.

    IEP's could also possibly work the XC services on the electric spine route with the DC bits being diesel worked pending conversion, On the other hand of course they may be too expensive for XC.

    I can see a lot local of local scheme's where you can get maximum local political fall out and there is max opportunity to get rid of 1st gen sprinters and any remaining Railbuses.

    I can see some logic in Basingstoke to Exeter as self contained route, although the Exeter end of the route has only 1 train per hour.
     
    Last edited: 16 Mar 2014
  23. CalderRail

    CalderRail Member

    Messages:
    233
    Joined:
    21 Aug 2013
    ManVic - Caldervale - Bradford - Leeds

    Plus: Caldervale - Brighouse - Leeds

    To meet up with and provide an alternative electrified route for diversions from the Standedge lines once they are electrified.

    Big part of the business case will be the operational resilience of having a parallel electrified line for diversions.
     
  24. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    19,376
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    Minor point about XC. If the main routes were electrified through to Bournemouth, (as Poole is no longer a normal XC destination) is it logical to have dedicated traction just to maintain the ability to run a once a day service to Guildford? I'd expect Guildford would lose its token service with electrification.
     
  25. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,429
    Joined:
    18 Aug 2013
    Location:
    WIM/PBO
    Depends upon whether an announcement to wire the North Downs Line is made or not. Probably won't happen, as SWT are just putting 456s on the 3rd rail section between Aldershot and Guildford, replacing the 450s.
     
  26. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

    Messages:
    5,576
    Joined:
    6 Jul 2012
    As the 456's will be at least 30 by the time the wires go up it may not be that much of a problem. Although as the Voyager fleet will be of a similar age, and so may be retired a few years before, the Meridian fleet being a few years younger could be used all the time the 456's are.

    Having said that, there's very little to stop any new XC EMU from being able to run using the 3rd rail network as well as wires. This would be more useful given that they could still be used on the diversion routes.
     
  27. Waverley125

    Waverley125 Member

    Messages:
    1,003
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2008
    Location:
    Leeds, West Yorkshire
    I'd expect:

    NORTH

    Manchester - Preston via Bolton
    Manchester - Leeds via Halifax
    Moorthorpe (Leeds via Wakefield Westgate) - Sheffield
    Leeds - Sheffield via Barnsley
    Doncaster - Rotherham (Sheffield)
    Sheffield - Hazel Grove

    MIDLANDS

    Derby - Birmingham (via Tamworth & Lichfield)
    Barnt Green - Bristol Parkway
    Gloucester - Newport
    London Marylebone - Banbury
    Leamington Spa - Worcester via Birmingham Snow Hill
     
  28. snowball

    snowball Established Member

    Messages:
    4,707
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2013
    Location:
    Leeds
    Already committed. Due to be completed by Dec 2016.

    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---

    ????? By MML do you mean Midland Main Line? That's already committed.
     
    Last edited: 16 Mar 2014
  29. Tobbes

    Tobbes Member

    Messages:
    551
    Joined:
    12 Aug 2012
    For the SW

    Bristol to Plymouth
    Newbury to Taunton
    Bristol to Weymouth
    Basingstoke to Exeter

    Not sure how much extra it would cost to electrify the Cornish branches if you went to Penzance. Barnstaple and Newquay, too. And given the recent disruption...

    Exeter - Plymouth via Okehampton
     
  30. Surreyman

    Surreyman Member

    Messages:
    531
    Joined:
    29 Jan 2012
    Given that the replacement EMUs would have to be 25Kv/750V dc, that would probably rule out bi-Modes (too complicated and expensive) so the route would have to be 100% electrified to make economic sense, also would need to be re-doubled before electrification.
    Agree would release decent number of good quality DMUs, although would be @35 years old!"

    I was referring to Salisbury to Exeter
     
  31. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,543
    Joined:
    21 Apr 2013
    Location:
    Nottingham
    Any electrification towards Salisbury or Exeter would almost certainly be 25kV but conversion inwards towards Waterloo is likely to be a long way off, so electric trains on this route would need to be dual voltage.

    The basic timetable has hourly trains through to Exeter, many of which are strengthened east of Salisbury. There is also an hourly Salisbury service but this extends to/from Yeovil or beyond in the peaks. Hence electrification only to Salisbury or Yeovil would mean most of the units going off the wires at some point during the day, or having to multiple with others that do so. So unless electrification went right through to Exeter the majority of the fleet would need to be bi-modes with dual-voltage capability.

    What's the betting that the wires will reach Exeter via Salisbury before via Taunton?
     
    Last edited: 16 Mar 2014
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page