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Electrification/modernisation of LSW Waterloo-Salisbury-Exeter

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70014IronDuke

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Well, this was the time when the Warships were taken off, wasn't it? ie about 1972-73 or so. So maybe he had a role. Was he in the Heath govt? I should imagine sort of 68-72 time - when the twin impact of singling and Warship failures wreaked the worst havoc with timekeeping - must have been a bad period for the line.

Edit: Gosh, all this discussion makes me wish I'd found the time to take a trip along the entire length of the line somewhere around those years - I had the 1/4 rate PT card too. Just didn't seem a priority at the time.
 
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coppercapped

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More urban legends...which I thought had been laid to rest 30 years ago.

DP2 was a very simple machine and as a result quite reliable for a one-off. When the Class 50s were ordered, and the order only came about because the Class 47's reliability was so God-awful, the BRB insisted in adding all the gubbins that people have listed in the earlier posts.

The issues arose because these were the first locomotives to have so much electronic control. There were no, or very few integrated circuits, available at the time and all with limited capacity - the very first prototypes had been developed (independently) by Kilby and Noyce in 1958/9 in the USA only five years before the locomotive was designed. As a result the circuit boards were populated by discrete components (individual resistors, transistors and such like) soldered to the conductive tracks on the board. As a result over a period of time the constant vibration found in a locomotive fractured many of the solder joints. Also the boards were held in a rack and were pushed into a connector at the back, not surprisingly these connections eventually caused problems as well.

You can always tell a pioneer - they are the ones with the arrows in their backs...

In the meantime, of course, people have developed components, materials and processes to work reliably in such conditions.

One other difference: on many of the prestige trains on the West Coast Main Line the locomotives worked in pairs north of Crewe and Preston to make the timings at least resemble those on the electrified stretches to the south. As a result the failure of one locomotive was not so obvious.
 
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coppercapped

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SEE my post 41. Very different scenarios.
Why?
It might have been, but it needs to be examined on its own merits. The essential commercial feature of the Exeter-Salisbury route was its integration into a service to Waterloo - a traditional feature that enabled commuting arguably beyond Salisbury and even as far as Yeovil.
Read Fiennes' book - I've quoted bits of it in earlier posts. The problem was that the line ran through a traffic desert west of Salisbury and there was very little, if any, commuting traffic to London from such distances in those days. Basingstoke was about as far from London as it went, similarly Reading was the effective limit from Paddington. The GWR's steam shed at Southall supplied the 61XXs which covered the suburban services which essentially did not go much past Slough.
There was no commuting to London from those distances in those days. This is all post-fact rationalisation.
There were very few Cambrian-Paddington through services (was it just the one a day Cambrian Coast Express?) so that doesn't really compare. There was no singling to Shrewsbury to add to the misery, was there? And even in GWR days traffic north of there was more of a secondary or branch line status to Chester and Birkenhead. Both those populations had fast, alternative routes to London Euston. (at least after 1966/7).
There were not many through trains each day to Exeter and beyond from Waterloo either. Not all trains were like the ACE, nor were all days like summer Saturdays in the 1950s.
 

randyrippley

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Well, this was the time when the Warships were taken off, wasn't it? ie about 1972-73 or so. So maybe he had a role. Was he in the Heath govt? I should imagine sort of 68-72 time - when the twin impact of singling and Warship failures wreaked the worst havoc with timekeeping - must have been a bad period for the line.

Yes, he was Heath's Transport Minister
 

43096

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Apparently never used or needed. They never did merry-go-round heavy freight.
Perhaps not on the Western, but Class 50’s slow speed control was used on the LMR as they worked MGR trains to Fiddlers Ferry Power Station on many occasions.
 

Helvellyn

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A bit of a side track but I've often wondered what the 50s would have been like if they had gone through a Class 37 style refurbishment with a full rewire, clean air cabinets and the generator replaced by an alternator. I know they were a small fleet but InterCity ended up with a similar number of 47/8s for remaining loco-hauled services.

Another question of mine though - given the WR had both 50s and 47s was there a reason it was 50s that were put on the West of England line services? (I know 47s came in due to Class 50 reliability issues towards the end)
 

Cowley

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A bit of a side track but I've often wondered what the 50s would have been like if they had gone through a Class 37 style refurbishment with a full rewire, clean air cabinets and the generator replaced by an alternator. I know they were a small fleet but InterCity ended up with a similar number of 47/8s for remaining loco-hauled services.

Another question of mine though - given the WR had both 50s and 47s was there a reason it was 50s that were put on the West of England line services? (I know 47s came in due to Class 50 reliability issues towards the end)
I’ve also wondered how the 50s would’ve been reliability wise with alternators rather than generators.
Would the version fitted to the 56s (which were being built at the same time as the 50 refurbishment program I believe) have done the job? Would it have worked with regards to being able to supply ETH does anyone know?

On the subject of why 50s for the Waterloo - Exeter route, I always assumed it was a combination of the WR supplying them, the fact that they could accelerate faster and achieve a faster top speed (100 vs 95mph) than a 47?
Certainly when 47473,47547 and 47587 (I think that’s right) were trialed on the line around 1987/88 they struggled slightly with the timings.
I’d be interested to know if there was any adjustment to the timetable when the 47/7s started. They had a 100mph top speed, so perhaps that 5mph made quite a difference to the timetable and not so much the acceleration?
The 50s of course had 15mph on the 33s they replaced which must’ve sped the timetable up (when they weren’t sitting down next to some cows in Dorset somewhere waiting to be rescued).
This is all musing and I’m prepared to be shot down in flames by those that know more.
On your marks...
 

Taunton

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Another question of mine though - given the WR had both 50s and 47s was there a reason it was 50s that were put on the West of England line services? (I know 47s came in due to Class 50 reliability issues towards the end)
Principally to allocate a discrete fleet to Laira, which had lost it's Westerns and which was looking for work. They weren't the first diesel-electrics at Laira as they had taken a good proportion of the Class 46 fleet as well, but the new Class 50 arrivals suited the labour and workshop situation. This was despite them being the only 100mph fleet on the WR (Class 47 were 95mph), and the only 100mph route on the Western at the time was Paddington to Bath.

Class 47 were actually relatively uncommon at Taunton and west until well into the 1980s. They did appear, but by no means all the crews in the West signed them, just certain links.
 

randyrippley

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Another question of mine though - given the WR had both 50s and 47s was there a reason it was 50s that were put on the West of England line services? (I know 47s came in due to Class 50 reliability issues towards the end)

Range
A 47/4 couldn't do a days diagram unrefuelled. A 50 could. 47/8 would have been able, but they were all committed to XC. Thats why as soon as the Scots 47/7 fleet (which also had the tank conversion) became available, NSE hijacked them to help out the remaining 50s.
A 47 with standard fuel tanks had a capacity of 765 gallons, a 50 had a capacity of 1055 gallons.
This article discusses it and is worth reading
http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/historical-features/watexdieselops.html
 
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Cowley

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A 47/4 couldn't do a days diagram unrefuelled. A 50 could. 47/8 would have been able, but they were all committed to XC. Thats why as soon as the Scots 47/7 fleet (which also had the tank conversion) became available, NSE hijacked them to help out the remaining 50s.
A 47 with standard fuel tanks had a capacity of 765 gallons, a 50 had a capacity of 1055 gallons.
This article discusses it and is worth reading
http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/historical-features/watexdieselops.html
That article was a good read this morning, thanks for sharing that.
Quite a reminder of how hard the route was on locos.
 

Taunton

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It was an unusual route for heavy loco-hauled trains which needed to get up to significant speed between stations and then make a hard brake application every few miles, certainly west of Salisbury, for the next stop. There isn't really another main route with such constant stop/start. Lines such as all stations in the Scottish Highlands were not driven so hard or so fast. It was commonly full power/full brake work, the drivers being ever conscious of delaying oncoming trains on the single line. It eats up the loco brake blocks and the thermal cycling in the power unit was tough on the components. Bear in mind that large traction diesels were generally originally developed for other applications such as ships or small power stations, where they ran at constant speed for long periods.

The fuel range of locos is determined of course by the tank capacity. Main line locos typically had two, roughly equal sized tanks under the frame, one for fuel and one for boiler water. The Class 33 did not need water, and thus could have a larger tank, likewise the Class 50. The Class 47/8 modification, at the end of steam heating, was to replace the two tanks with one much larger one which would last the loco a couple of days. I was surprised that the (official) table in the article gave the same range for ETH locos whether heating is on or off. The power for the ETH is not "free", and the diesel has to work harder if it is supplying power for both traction and heating rather than just the former.

I don't recall any fuelling facility at Waterloo, so presumably any requirement there would mean running to Nine Elms and back, which I believe was not normally done. At the Exeter end there was fuelling provision at St Davids. On the WR they long maintained the London fuelling point at Ranleigh Bridge, just beyong the end of Paddington's platforms, which had always been a visiting steam loco facility and was in busy use right through the diesel loco era. Bit of personal experience here, but shortly after the Warships took over the Plymouth-Liverpool train, working throughout from Plymouth to Crewe, on a journey from Taunton we had a "breakdown" beyond Shrewsbury, which the guard later said had been caused by the Warship running out of fuel. Soon afterwards things were changed again, a hydraulic worked the train from Plymouth to Bristol and then a Class 47 on to Crewe, quite likely due to this problem.
 

Lucan

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Bear in mind that large traction diesels were generally originally developed for other applications such as ships or small power stations, where they ran at constant speed for long periods.
That's funny, I have been an engineer on board ship and in power stations and we always blamed diesel engine problems on the notion that "they were originally designed for railway locomotives"! In my (large) power stations the diesel engines were to provide power for control and lighting etc for the site in case the main steam turbine generators were shut down and at the same time we lost the connection with the national grid for any reason. Result was that they were almost never run except for a few minutes in 3 monthly tests. So if anyone wants some used but very low mileage engines ...

I was on a warship propelled by steam turbines and the railway-type diesels were just for on-board electrical power. The diesels were a PITA for maintenance, but the steam turbines just ran for ever.
 

Cowley

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That's funny, I have been an engineer on board ship and in power stations and we always blamed diesel engine problems on the notion that "they were originally designed for railway locomotives"! In my (large) power stations the diesel engines were to provide power for control and lighting etc for the site in case the main steam turbine generators were shut down and at the same time we lost the connection with the national grid for any reason. Result was that they were almost never run except for a few minutes in 3 monthly tests. So if anyone wants some used but very low mileage engines ...

I was on a warship propelled by steam turbines and the railway-type diesels were just for on-board electrical power. The diesels were a PITA for maintenance, but the steam turbines just ran for ever.
Interesting stuff. Do you remember what make the engines were?
 

43096

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I’ve also wondered how the 50s would’ve been reliability wise with alternators rather than generators.
Would the version fitted to the 56s (which were being built at the same time as the 50 refurbishment program I believe) have done the job? Would it have worked with regards to being able to supply ETH does anyone know?
A Class 56 main alternator matched with the auxiliary/ETH alternator as used on Classes 31/4, 45/1 and 47/4 would probably have done the job.

It’s one of the “what-ifs” as to what would have happened, but my hunch is the 50s would have become InterCity CrossCountry machines, eventually being replaced by Voyagers.
 

Cowley

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A Class 56 main alternator matched with the auxiliary/ETH alternator as used on Classes 31/4, 45/1 and 47/4 would probably have done the job.

It’s one of the “what-ifs” as to what would have happened, but my hunch is the 50s would have become InterCity CrossCountry machines, eventually being replaced by Voyagers.
Thanks for that. Possibly then if their refurbishment had happened five years later then they could’ve ended up fitted with alternators like the 37/4s did.
 

43096

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Thanks for that. Possibly then if their refurbishment had happened five years later then they could’ve ended up fitted with alternators like the 37/4s did.
The Western Region wanted to include generator replacement (with alternators) as part of the refurbishment, but the BR Board rejected it on grounds of cost.
 

30907

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I don't recall any fuelling facility at Waterloo, so presumably any requirement there would mean running to Nine Elms and back, which I believe was not normally done.

Nine Elms wouldn't have been much use, being purely a steam depot (I certainly don't remember a fuelling point on my one visit in 1965) and closing in 1967.
Fairly certain there was a fuel point in the siding behind the Windsor side, ISTR locos laying over there rather than in the carriage docks between 11 and 12 (old numbers). Otherwise I think everything went to Stewart's Lane.
 

70014IronDuke

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Explained in post 41. No need to repeat the points. If you can't see the difference between 100+ years of established workings on flaghips routes, and a brand new set up on a route that management will not have in primary focus, I don't really know what else I can say to help you.

Read Fiennes' book - I've quoted bits of it in earlier posts. The problem was that the line ran through a traffic desert west of Salisbury and there was very little, if any, commuting traffic to London from such distances in those days. Basingstoke was about as far from London as it went, similarly Reading was the effective limit from Paddington.

If we are talking about 1963 (which is, IIRC, when Wilton - Exeter went to the WR), this is simply not true for the WR. (I can't speak for the stations west of Basingstoke, but I don't believe it is true for those either.)

For example, in 1963 there were at least two through peak hour LHC trains per day serving Didcot - Thames Valley stations - Reading - Paddington. I think they came from Oxford, but can't swear to that. These were already Hymeks by the time I saw them, but I assume they were Hall or County-hauled before diesels became available. Didcot certainly had a couple (2? 3?) Counties allocated specifically for commuter trains into London.

There were commuters from the VAle of White Horse too before they closed stations like Wantage Rd and assumed everyone would henceforth drive to their enforced railhead at Didcot.

These were not unusual distances. On the GN there were similarly two loco-hauled peak hour through trains to KX (usually with New England A2s or A3s) that attracted commuters from Huntingdon, St Neots, Sandy and Biggleswade - we are talking 50 - 70 miles here - far greater distances than the 36 miles from PAD to Reading. On the LNW there were commuters from Northampton for sure, again, 65 miles from Euston.

Of course, commuting in terms of passenger numbers and distance was nothing like what we have today, but to say the commuter limit was Reading is simply false.

The GWR's steam shed at Southall supplied the 61XXs which covered the suburban services which essentially did not go much past Slough.
There was no commuting to London from those distances in those days. This is all post-fact rationalisation.

Of course, commuter workings got more intense the closer you got to London. Nobody would argue with that. But simply repeating your point and deeming any other argument is "post-fact rationalisation" doesn't make it so. It is not true that the limit for daily commuting on the WR c 1963 was Reading. Not in 1963, and not for some years before that, because I don't believe those trains suddenly appeared for the first time in the 1963 timetable.

There were not many through trains each day to Exeter and beyond from Waterloo either. Not all trains were like the ACE, nor were all days like summer Saturdays in the 1950s.

That is true (relatively) for almost every line emanating from London. It doesn't mean to say that there was not traffic to be had, even on winter Tuesdays, despite the original hope to close the LSW at Sherborne (another enforced railhead for folks from Yeovil). And, going back to the original point of the thread, I still say that had the line stayed in SR ownership, that that traffic could have been built up earlier and more easily than what ultimately transpired.
 

70014IronDuke

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That's funny, I have been an engineer on board ship and in power stations and we always blamed diesel engine problems on the notion that "they were originally designed for railway locomotives"! ...

Seriously?
 

70014IronDuke

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It was an unusual route for heavy loco-hauled trains which needed to get up to significant speed between stations and then make a hard brake application every few miles, certainly west of Salisbury, for the next stop. There isn't really another main route with such constant stop/start.

Arguably the Midland semi-fasts behind Cl 45s faced a smilar stop-start-full power - stop pattern.

.... I was surprised that the (official) table in the article gave the same range for ETH locos whether heating is on or off. The power for the ETH is not "free", and the diesel has to work harder if it is supplying power for both traction and heating rather than just the former.
....
Or, of course, it the power unit is at full power, the ETH simply takes away from what would otherwise go to the traction motors.
 

70014IronDuke

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....
On the subject of why 50s for the Waterloo - Exeter route, I always assumed it was a combination of the WR supplying them, the fact that they could accelerate faster and achieve a faster top speed (100 vs 95mph) than a 47?
Certainly when 47473,47547 and 47587 (I think that’s right) were trialed on the line around 1987/88 they struggled slightly with the timings.
I’d be interested to know if there was any adjustment to the timetable when the 47/7s started. They had a 100mph top speed, so perhaps that 5mph made quite a difference to the timetable and not so much the acceleration?
The 50s of course had 15mph on the 33s they replaced which must’ve sped the timetable up (when they weren’t sitting down next to some cows in Dorset somewhere waiting to be rescued).
This is all musing and I’m prepared to be shot down in flames by those that know more.
On your marks...

I don't think the extra 5 mph allowed for the Cl 50s would have made any difference at all to the timings on the Exeter trains. There was nowhere where they could even attain 100 mph officially west of Salisbury, and even between Worting and Salsbury the max was probably 85 or 90 mph in those days. The acceleration performance up to around 80 mph would have been far more significant once west of Basingstoke.
 

Lucan

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I have been an engineer on board ship and in power stations and we always blamed diesel engine problems on the notion that "they were originally designed for railway locomotives"! ... The diesels were a PITA for maintenance, but the steam turbines just ran for ever.
Seriously?
Certainly. I would have guessed that the railway market for diesel engines of that size was generally larger than that for ships or stationary generation. The Wikipedia entry on the Paxman Ventura says "The Paxman Ventura is a diesel engine for railway locomotives. The type YJ or Ventura was developed in the mid-1950s ....With a view to the forthcoming modernisation and dieselisation of British Railways.. " They were also used on the Type 42 destroyers (with which I had some involvement at dockyards, but not at sea), four diesel generators per ship, 40 ships built, so maybe the marine and railway numbers were similar in that case. OTOH the railway Valentas (used on HSTs) surely outnumbered the marine ones.
Interesting stuff. Do you remember what make the engines were?
Paxman Ventura. Paxman Valenta, and Napier Deltic (on the low magnetism Mine Counter-Measures Vessels) are the ones I recall from the Navy. I did not have much involvement with the power station diesels, but they were probably Paxman Venturas or Mirrlees.
 

hexagon789

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’d be interested to know if there was any adjustment to the timetable when the 47/7s started. They had a 100mph top speed, so perhaps that 5mph made quite a difference to the timetable and not so much the acceleration?

Sorry to be pedantic but the 47/7s did not have a 100 mph top speed, they were permitted to run at 100 mph with special maintenance. If that maintenance lapsed they were restricted to 95 as with all other 47s.

I don't believe NSE gave them such maintenance and so they would be restricted to 95. As others have mentioned though the WoE is limited to 85-90 anyway.
 

Cowley

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Sorry to be pedantic but the 47/7s did not have a 100 mph top speed, they were permitted to run at 100 mph with special maintenance. If that maintenance lapsed they were restricted to 95 as with all other 47s.

I don't believe NSE gave them such maintenance and so they would be restricted to 95. As others have mentioned though the WoE is limited to 85-90 anyway.
Pedantry is fully allowed if it means that we learn something new which stops us throwing wild unsubstantiated claims around. ;)
 

randyrippley

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Certainly. I would have guessed that the railway market for diesel engines of that size was generally larger than that for ships or stationary generation. The Wikipedia entry on the Paxman Ventura says "The Paxman Ventura is a diesel engine for railway locomotives. The type YJ or Ventura was developed in the mid-1950s ....With a view to the forthcoming modernisation and dieselisation of British Railways.. " They were also used on the Type 42 destroyers (with which I had some involvement at dockyards, but not at sea), four diesel generators per ship, 40 ships built, so maybe the marine and railway numbers were similar in that case. OTOH the railway Valentas (used on HSTs) surely outnumbered the marine ones.

Paxman Ventura. Paxman Valenta, and Napier Deltic (on the low magnetism Mine Counter-Measures Vessels) are the ones I recall from the Navy. I did not have much involvement with the power station diesels, but they were probably Paxman Venturas or Mirrlees.

Its drifting off-topic, but if you want the history of Paxman diesels, I suggest you start at
http://www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/
not Wikidpedia

FWIW, when I got a tour of Heysham 2 around 20 years ago, the backup diesels were a pair of massive Mirrlees. From memory one was 28-cylinder, the other 32 or 34. Startup time from "off" to "full load" was said to be in fractions of a second - must have been a heck of a noise as they came online. I can't understand how they kept the crankshafts straight
 

hexagon789

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Pedantry is fully allowed if it means that we learn something new which stops us throwing wild unsubstantiated claims around. ;)

Thank you for saying so :)

I only know that because I was myself corrected and had it kind of drummed in that they were "permitted not allowed" to run at 100. ;)

They were only ever permitted 100 on certain routes subject to certain restrictions and were treated as 47/4s for diagramming purposes if their maintenance lapsed.
 

Cowley

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Thank you for saying so :)

I only know that because I was myself corrected and had it kind of drummed in that they were "permitted not allowed" to run at 100. ;)

They were only ever permitted 100 on certain routes subject to certain restrictions and were treated as 47/4s for diagramming purposes if their maintenance lapsed.
That’s interesting. Was it something to do with the field diverts being adjusted?
Re the Waterloo - Exeter route, was the section from London - Basingstoke 100mph does anyone know?
 

hexagon789

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That’s interesting. Was it something to do with the field diverts being adjusted?

Yes, the field diverts were re-wired . 47 702 had them re-wired incorrectly at one point when it was being used on Cross Country workings (alongside 47 711) and was a bit sluggish until it was sorted. :rolleyes:

Re the Waterloo - Exeter route, was the section from London - Basingstoke 100mph does anyone know?

I think it went up to 100 when the 442 Wessies were introduced. Certainly the 4REPs which preceeded them were 'officially' 90 mph units so I think the line was 90 until then.

In steam days the Southern Region had an 85 mph ceiling (certainly a strange figure but I've seen reference to this in several sources, no Wikipedia is not one of them! :lol:). So presumably it went 85 up to 90, then 100 when the Wessies came in.

Not sure if there were blanket 100 sections or if they were differentials such as 90/WES 100.
 

hexagon789

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Having checked the current sectional appendix, the linespeed is 90 but there are several sections where "trains composed wholly of Class 442, 444, 450 or HST stock may run at 100mph".
 
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