Electrification - More Than 900 Route Miles

[sprinterguy]

Yes, Valley Lines will directly remove 30 Pacer units, but some may end up being taken in by the Great Western or Northern franchisees, hopefully only for a very short time. And with other electrification schemes, they will cause a cascade of units (newer/faster replacing older trains) leading to the end of the Pacer. However, I doubt that we will get this done by 2019, especially without any further new DMUs.

I can't imagine that any displaced Valley Lines Pacers will go to Great Western; they only have eight Pacers at present, and the Great Western electrification will hopefully result in a large number of Network Turbos moving out west to the Bristol area. I could see the 142s in use on the Valley Lines going back to the north though, although with the electrification of the Valley Lines only likely to be completed so close to the DDA deadline I wouldn't think that there will be a future for any Pacers that aren't absolutely essential to maintaining the bare minimum level of capacity required,

 

[D365]

I can't imagine that any displaced Valley Lines Pacers will go to Great Western; they only have eight Pacers at present, and the Great Western electrification will hopefully result in a large number of Network Turbos moving out west to the Bristol area. I could see the 142s in use on the Valley Lines going back to the north though, although with the electrification of the Valley Lines only likely to be completed so close to the DDA deadline I wouldn't think that there will be a future for any Pacers that aren't absolutely essential to maintaining the bare minimum level of capacity required,

I'd hope not, the only future I can see for Pacers is the scrapyard - I don't think Iran would take any more, although it would be fun if PPS leased charter trains

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I didn't include the Edinburgh - Glasgow or the Chiltern ones as I expected someone would say they were "inter city" - in terms of stock used on those lines it's not "commuter" at least. Hard to draw a line in the sand though!

I'd agree the Chiltern Birmingham / Banbury diagrams are InterCity, but surely the rest of it is commuter? Yes... hard to know where to draw the line.

Edinburgh - Glasgow... very difficult to say indeed... on the face of it, it's InterCity but it is heavily used by commuters... perhaps we should toss a coin to decide on that one?

 

[HSTEd]

InterCity services seem tohave a rather blurred line with commuter services.
As I understand it until electrification services to King's Lynn were operated by full InterCity services complete with loco hauled formations and restaurant vehicles.

Then they converted to Cl317s after electrification.....

 

[tbtc]

Yes, Valley Lines will directly remove 30 Pacer units, but some may end up being taken in by the Great Western or Northern franchisees, hopefully only for a very short time. And with other electrification schemes, they will cause a cascade of units (newer/faster replacing older trains) leading to the end of the Pacer. However, I doubt that we will get this done by 2019, especially without any further new DMUs.

I really doubt it can be done by 2019. The way to do it is to wire the commuter lines like the Valley Lines, the Snow Hill lines... I can't believe that it can be done by cascading faster trains onto slower routes (given how poor the doors/ acceleration of a 158 would be when replacing a 75mph train with wide doors on a stopper)

InterCity services seem tohave a rather blurred line with commuter services.
As I understand it until electrification services to King's Lynn were operated by full InterCity services complete with loco hauled formations and restaurant vehicles.

Then they converted to Cl317s after electrification.....

Does "loco hauled" equate with "inter city"?

 

[Eagle]

As I understand it until electrification services to King's Lynn were operated by full InterCity services complete with loco hauled formations and restaurant vehicles.

Loco-hauled yes, but I believe it was always a NSE operation, IC never touched it.

(IIRC when sectorization was first being drawn up in the early 1980s, Waterloo–Weymouth services were considered for inclusion in IC—as it was, they were put into NSE and subsequently electrified.)

 

[jopsuk]

Always struck me as odd that Kings Lynn, Weymouth and Exeter (& beyond) via Salisbury were included in NSE, but Norwich wasn't- not to mention the odd bit wherby Peterborough wasn't either (but was served by NSE trains), leading to it being to this day outside the Network RailCard zone.

Given the inclusion of Weymouth and Exeter, including Peterborough, Norwich and all the Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Suffolk branches wouldn't have been ridiculous.

 

[Eagle]

not to mention the odd bit wherby Peterborough wasn't either (but was served by NSE trains), leading to it being to this day outside the Network RailCard zone.

Same goes for Ipswich.

NSE did have some services that went way out of their area, such as Chiltern services to Birmingham Moor Street and Snow Hill, and I believe they at one point operated a service to Stourbridge via Oxford and Worcester (this being pre-Jewellery line).

 

[The Ham]

There is a news report of possible further electrification:

http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/10047421.MP_welcomes_rail_line_improvement_analysis/

On Tuesday,the three MPs were able to persuade the trains minister to look into whether the London-Westbury line could be electrified as well.

The three MPs queried why electrification of the Paddington-Westbury line was stopping at Newbury and emphasised the importance of good through train links to the local economy.

During the meeting the Mr Burns told the MPs that while the current franchise process is on hold until at least the end of the year, he would instruct the Department of Transport to formally investigate the option of extending rail electrification from Newbury to Westbury.

 

[Ivo]

I don't see how it can be justified? There isn't enough local traffic that could benefit from electrification between Newbury and Westbury, and there's no sense in extending to Westbury just for the sake of slightly reducing the diesel element of bi-mode services...

Now, if Bristol local services were to be done, then it might be worthwhile, especially if there is potential for Bradford-on-Avon and Trowbridge to have a full-time service to London. But given Bristol is getting an increase in service already, this seems unlikely.

 

[Eagle]

Extending to Pewsey (at least) would enable all Turbo services on that line to go electric though, and being as if you think about it Pewsey's always been a weird place to terminate anyway you might as well go the extra 10 or 12 miles and extend the stoppers to Westbury.

 

[PhilipW]

If anything extra needs to be electrified, I would vote for the 20 miles from Temple Meads to Weston-Super-Mare. That small extension would mean that a lot of bi-modes could be replaced by all electric. The savings on that alone would pay for a fair proportion of the electrification costs. Then all services to/through Temple Meads would be electric rather than the electric/bi-mode mix that they will have to be with the current plans.

 

[Eagle]

Then all services to/through Temple Meads would be electric rather than the electric/bi-mode mix that they will have to be with the current plans.

Most of the London to Weston-super-Mare services continue to Taunton and beyond though...

 

[The Ham]

What's the likelihood, assuming electrification to Westbury removes all other DMU services from around Reading, that the winner of the next GW franchise would push for the electrification of the North Downs line?

 

[Eagle]

Not quite all, there'll still be Worcester services worked by DMUs.

 

[PhilipW]

Most of the London to Weston-super-Mare services continue to Taunton and beyond though...

Hmm. Just checking my timetables, there are currently 8 Down services to Weston on Mon-Fri largely in the evening: 4 terminate there, 2 go on to Taunton, 1 to Paington and 1 to Exeter of which I suspect some of the very late evening services are for stock movements.

I can't see easily where the Up trains start but I suspect the pattern is similar.

Even on this pattern, there will an awful lot of Bi-Modes shuttling between Paddington and Temple Meads all day just so that they can go off the electrified network for one journey in the evening.

I stand by my point that I see great savings if the line was electrified to Weston, even if it meant a few services could not carry on beyond:
-- fewer Bi-Modes and more electrics thus reducing capital and running costs
-- far easier to ramp up Weston services if customer demand is there post electrification - the "sparks" effect (even up to 1 per hour if needed)
-- another plank in the Greater Bristol metro with electric trains now running the stopper service to TM and beyond.

Weston electrification sounds like a very sensible additional piece in the national electric jigsaw puzzle to me. Go for it.

 

[The Ham]

Not quite all, there'll still be Worcester services worked by DMUs.

Would they not be suitable for IEP running? As otherwise it's DMU under wires to Oxford (about half way).

 

[Waverley125]

electrifying out to Westbury would be quite sensible if it included Westbury-Bath & Trowbridge-Chippenham, as well as reinstating the curve between Bradford on Avon & Melksham. There'd then be the potential to reinstated local services out of Temple Meads to Chippenham & Westbury, and the potential to re-open several of the stations on that line, such as Twerton, Bathampton, Box and Corsham.

 

[philjo]

That would also have the advantage of providing a 2nd electric route from Bath to Reading allowing for diversions. Once Salisbury is wired that leaves only the Salisbury-Westbury section to be done for the Cardiff-Portsmouth services to become EMU (presumably switching to 3rd rail at Southampton for the section to Portsmouth/Brighton)

Electric freight from Southampton could also then go that way via Salisbury, Westbury & Swindon to Didcot

 

[joeykins82]

The absence of Newbury-Bedwyn electrification from the announced plans is perhaps more baffling than the Sheffield-Leeds/Doncaster and GOBLIN omissions; there's a frequent Paddington-Bedwyn service which will presumably be either scrapped (to the chagrin of anyone west of Newbury who'll have to change to a new diesel Newbury-Westbury service) or will run under 60 miles of OHLE to Newbury during its 74 mile run to Bedwyn.

 

[PhilipW]

electrifying out to Westbury would be quite sensible if it included Westbury-Bath & Trowbridge-Chippenham, as well as reinstating the curve between Bradford on Avon & Melksham. There'd then be the potential to reinstated local services out of Temple Meads to Chippenham & Westbury, and the potential to re-open several of the stations on that line, such as Twerton, Bathampton, Box and Corsham.

I expect this all will happen; it all makes sense. It is just a question of timing.

 

[sprinterguy]

The absence of Newbury-Bedwyn electrification from the announced plans is perhaps more baffling than the Sheffield-Leeds/Doncaster and GOBLIN omissions; there's a frequent Paddington-Bedwyn service which will presumably be either scrapped (to the chagrin of anyone west of Newbury who'll have to change to a new diesel Newbury-Westbury service) or will run under 60 miles of OHLE to Newbury during its 74 mile run to Bedwyn.

There will not be a dedicated Newbury to Bedwyn diesel service. I believe that the plan is to introduce a new IEP semi-fast service to Taunton and possibly Exeter, presumably hourly. Bedwyn will actually be in a better position than it is now as it will have better links to Westbury and the South West. Of course the IEP sets will be able to make use of electric power as far as Newbury, and will be running more than fourteen miles off the wires if they are running to Taunton.

 

[Chris125]

What's the likelihood, assuming electrification to Westbury removes all other DMU services from around Reading, that the winner of the next GW franchise would push for the electrification of the North Downs line?

Its not impossible - electrifying the North Downs as well as the now DfT-funded Thames Valley branches was apparently mentioned as a possibility in a FGW staff meeting last year(?) about the bid.

Chris

 

[sprinterguy]

Would they not be suitable for IEP running? As otherwise it's DMU under wires to Oxford (about half way).

Yes, the Worcester (and Hereford) services are planned for IEP operation once those trains are introduced.

Are there not a few branches of the FGW network that are not being electrified though as part of the Oxford & Newbury scheme, and hence will have to hold onto a few Network Turbos in the Reading area?

 

[Zoe]

There will not be a dedicated Newbury to Bedwyn diesel service. I believe that the plan is to introduce a new IEP semi-fast service to Taunton and possibly Exeter, presumably hourly. Bedwyn will actually be in a better position than it is now as it will have better links to Westbury and the South West. Of course the IEP sets will be able to make use of electric power as far as Newbury, and will be running more than fourteen miles off the wires if they are running to Taunton.

The franchise consultation said hourly to Westbury with some extensions to Exeter and one train per day to Paignton. There was nothing about this in the ITT though.
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I note that Greenford has been left out of any electrification plans. Post Crossrail this will likely leave an isolated diesel shuttle from West Ealing to Greenford.

 

[tbtc]

There is a news report of possible further electrification:

http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/10047421.MP_welcomes_rail_line_improvement_analysis/

Before everyone gets too excited and translates "some local MPs have asked for electrification to Newbury to be extended an extra fifty miles to Westbury" into "lets find the money to electrify a second route to Bristol and build new chord etc etc", lets take a look at the evidence...

The current stopping service west of Reading is:

• Reading - Newbury half hourly shuttle
• London - Reading - Newbury - Bedwyn hourly semi fast (with token extension to Taunton)
• London - Reading - Pewsey - Westbury - irregular stops in HSTs to Devon/ Cornwall

The logical thing seems to be to make the half hourly Newbury service extend to/ from London (Newbury could sustain a half hourly London service, plus CrossRail is going to mean a remapping of services through Maidenhead), with the Bedwyn service becoming an hourly DMU only from Reading.

Maybe Bedwyn becomes electrified in CP6, but there are a lot of "add-ons" that NR don't have time to do in CP5 (Selby - Hull, Sheffield - Moorthorpe/ Doncaster, Erewash Valley etc).

But there's little population beyond there, unless you go all the way to Exeter. And, as we've argued in another thread, that just upsets people in Plymouth. And wiring to Plymouth would just get Cornish people upset...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I note that Greenford has been left out of any electrification plans. Post Crossrail this will likely leave an isolated diesel shuttle from West Ealing to Greenford.

One for Chiltern to take on?

 

[transmanche]

I note that Greenford has been left out of any electrification plans. Post Crossrail this will likely leave an isolated diesel shuttle from West Ealing to Greenford.

One for Chiltern to take on?

That would be the most sensible solution. Whether it occurs to DfT though is another matter...

 

[Waverley125]

That would be the most sensible solution. Whether it occurs to DfT though is another matter...

Surely could also be Crossrail converted from Old Oak Common to High Wycombe? All stops on Chiltern south of HW removed from Birmingham/Oxford/Stratford with Wycombe the first call on all trains?

Jubilee line to then take over all stops up to West Rusilip on the current line out of Marylebone.

 

[The Planner]

Not without a lot of extra work at South Ruislip and doubling the Greenford section. Would cause a lot of conflict too without a flyover of sorts.

 

[tbtc]

Surely could also be Crossrail converted from Old Oak Common to High Wycombe? All stops on Chiltern south of HW removed from Birmingham/Oxford/Stratford with Wycombe the first call on all trains?

Jubilee line to then take over all stops up to West Rusilip on the current line out of Marylebone.

No.

London - High Wycombe on a toiletless train with only a handful of seats?

Crossrail is not the answer.