Electrification - More Than 900 Route Miles

[philjo]

Is it possible to extend either the District or Central lines from Ealing Broadway to West Ealing (0.75 miles - may need a tunnel) then continue to Greenford (or West Ruislip)?

 

[The Ham]

Is it possible to extend either the District or Central lines from Ealing Broadway to West Ealing (0.75 miles - may need a tunnel) then continue to Greenford (or West Ruislip)?

I'd have thought that it would be prohibitively expensive (including a major rebuild of the Ealing Broadway station), however it would mean that there was a diversion route if there were problems on the line between Greenford and Acton, so TfL may see some benefit.

 

[joeykins82]

I note that Greenford has been left out of any electrification plans. Post Crossrail this will likely leave an isolated diesel shuttle from West Ealing to Greenford.

I don't think Chiltern will take this over but I would be surprised if it wasn't wired up as part of the Chiltern route wiring whenever that may come to pass (we're all assuming CP6 but who knows). Agree that it'd make some sense to put the stopping services to High Wycombe (and Tring) on to Crossrail instead of turning half of the trains round in the Paddington sidings but I don't think that anyone would want to entirely withdraw Chiltern services south of HWY. Also the issues with Crossrail stock being without toilet facilities might well cause problems.

 

[philjo]

The absence of Newbury-Bedwyn electrification from the announced plans is perhaps more baffling than the Sheffield-Leeds/Doncaster and GOBLIN omissions; there's a frequent Paddington-Bedwyn service which will presumably be either scrapped (to the chagrin of anyone west of Newbury who'll have to change to a new diesel Newbury-Westbury service) or will run under 60 miles of OHLE to Newbury during its 74 mile run to Bedwyn.

Government has now asked NR to provide costings for 3 options:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20399057
Costs for electrifying:
1, Newbury-Bedwyn
2. Newbury - Westbury
3. Newbury to Bath & Swindon including the Mendip stone quarries.

BBC news

Extending the electrification of a Great Western branch line is to be considered by the government.

Currently, electrification plans for the line from London Paddington to the south west stop at Newbury in Berkshire.

MPs from west Berkshire and Wiltshire met rail minister Simon Burns to ask for an extension along commuter lines to Westbury, Bath and Swindon.

Mr Burns said he would look to see whether there was a "viable case".

BBC South transport correspondent Paul Clifton has learned Network Rail has been asked to look into the financial viability of three options.

The first would electrify 14 miles of line between Newbury and Bedwyn, the second a 53-mile section to Westbury and the third, the potential to link the line to Swindon and Bath allowing connections into the Mendip stone quarries at East Cranmore and Whatley.
Commuter concern

It would create a secondary route for electric trains between London and Bath and Bristol.

Newbury MP Richard Benyon was part of the meeting with Mr Burns alongside Claire Perry, MP for Devizes, and Westbury MP Andrew Murrison.

Mr Benyon said: "The overriding concern is the future could mean lesser services for commuters west of Newbury.

"The government is keen for regeneration projects that boost the economy and this could certainly be one of them.

"While the minister couldn't give us a commitment one way or the other, it's good to see him reversing the decision of the previous government by agreeing to look into it."

Steve Smith, of the Bedwyn Trains Passenger Group, said: "We are concerned that this review is only for electrification.

"It should also encompass the option of an hourly semi-fast train between Paddington and Exeter. The review should be for the retention of our services and not just electrification."

Mr Burns said: "Rail electrification hugely benefits passengers by enabling faster, more reliable train services.

"I have agreed to look again into whether there is a viable case to extend the government's plans to electrify the Great Western main line beyond Newbury to Westbury."

 

[Waverley125]

I wasn't suggesting only Crossrail from Wycombe into London, but the removal of all stops south of Wycombe. So all services on Chiltern would call at Wycombe & then run fast to Marylebone, with the Jubilee line taking over stops north of Neasden & being extended out to Ruislip.

 

[mr_jrt]

I wasn't suggesting only Crossrail from Wycombe into London, but the removal of all stops south of Wycombe. So all services on Chiltern would call at Wycombe & then run fast to Marylebone, with the Jubilee line taking over stops north of Neasden & being extended out to Ruislip.

My master plan sees Crossrail to Wycombe as a first stage of wiring the line, removing all the Chiltern inner suburban services from Marylebone. The 2nd stage would be extending the wires to Bicester and Oxford to grab the outer suburban services as well. A branch at Neasden for the Jubilee line takes over the poorly-serviced Chiltern stations towards South Ruislip, but as it would require tunnelling at the western end anyway, you have the option of heading elsewhere rather than duplicating the end of the Central line. So if not West Ruslip or Uxbridge, then perhaps looping back to West Ealing via Greenford perhaps. That then just leaves Marylebone with the "mainline" services and the Amersham line services, which other solutions can be found to remove.

 

[Eagle]

My master plan sees Crossrail to Wycombe as a first stage of wiring the line, removing all the Chiltern inner suburban services from Marylebone. The 2nd stage would be extending the wires to Bicester and Oxford to grab the outer suburban services as well.

And then as if by magic, now wiring the Snow Hill lines, as well as releasing 27 of LM's suburban DMUs for cascading, enables Chiltern to go fully electric.

 

[tbtc]

MPs from west Berkshire and Wiltshire met rail minister Simon Burns to ask for an extension along commuter lines to Westbury, Bath and Swindon

I normally hate the phrase "commuter lines", but even more so when we are talking about rural routes like these - by the same token the Far North service is a "commuter line" (as some people will use it to commute from Dingwall to Inverness)... I hate how this has evolved into a meaningless phrase...

 

[Eagle]

All lines are commuter lines to some extent or other.

 

[tbtc]

All lines are commuter lines to some extent or other.

Yes, which is why it's a stupid phrase.

I guess that it sounds like a good phrase for journalists, making a route sound like a vital cog in getting the economy to work - one of those phrases like "hard working families" that politicians trot out (do single people not work hard?).

 

[Waverley125]

solution for the Aylesbury route: reopen from AVP to Leicester via Rugby, with re-openings of Quainton Road, Calvert, Finmere, Brackley, Helmdon, Woodford Halse, Willoughby, Rugby Central, Brownsover, Lutterworth, Cosby & Whetstone, with a new chord linking to the existing line through South Wigston to Leicester Midland.

 

[The Planner]

Never gonna happen and I still don't see why it gets wheeled out as a solution.

 

[mr_jrt]

And then as if by magic, now wiring the Snow Hill lines, as well as releasing 27 of LM's suburban DMUs for cascading, enables Chiltern to go fully electric.

It did actually occur to me that with Oxford to Leamington being wired up for the electric spine scheme, that aside from the short stretch form Bicester to King's Sutton (which might indeed make more sense to do as part of doing Bicester itself), there's a justification as you suggest of doing Leamington to Moor St. as part of a wider Birmingham suburban scheme. On it's own the Chiltern mainline route probably doesn't justify wires, but when you wire up the suburban services on either end as separate projects and the seemingly-impossible-to-justify central section gets done as part of a strategic scheme then maybe, just maybe, it might happen in our lifetimes

 

[Waverley125]

In doing the 'Chiltern Route' you probably do:

Moor Street-Marylebone
Tyesley-Stratford on Avon
Hatton-Wilmcote
Leamington-Coventry
Moor Street-Worcester Shrub Hill
Coventry-Nuneaton
Princes Risborough-Aylesbury Vale Parkway
Neasden-Aylesbury

This gives all services on the Aylesbury line plus the diversionary route via Princes Risborough, London-Birmingham & Birmingham-Stratford stoppers, as well as the 'Coventry Crossrail' service of Nuneaton-Leamington, and an entire London-Nuneaton diversionary route for the southern WCML, and another Cross-City line for Birmingham of Stratford-Worcester

 

[corfield]

Problem for electrifying Neaden - Alesbury is the shared track with the Met as far as Amersham.

AC and LU DC coexisting is presumably out, and the Met has just received brand new stock.

So options are:
1) Dual voltage AC / LU DC trains for Chiltern. Probably a self contained Lond-Aylesbury sub fleet of whatever EMU re-equips Chilterns 165/8/72 fleet.

2) Hand the entire Neasden-Alesbury section back to the Met. Would require new DC infrastructure, prevent Aylesbury-Bletchley/MK services and like last time this was considered presumably run out of capacity at Baker St.

3) Hand the shared line entirely to Chiltern (Met stopping where the Chiltern line from Neasden joins its line and is shared outwards, I forget off the top of my head where this is !). But does Marylebone have capacity for this?

Personally Id prefer to see Chiltern see a number of upgrades; taking over the Aylesbury line, reinstatement of some quad tracking/station loops to permit clockface high frequency metro service from at least Ruislip inwards, the West Hampstead Interchange Station and possibly further (expensive) expansion of Marylebone with another platform constructed adjacent to 5/6 (there is access space under the road bridge, but would require destruction of some council flats, although not touching Paribas building). This investment might shut up a lot of the anti-HS2 brigade in the area (or at least their passive supporters).

 

[mr_jrt]

All good suggestions. Personally I suspect the only option that makes sense is handing over the fast lines north of HotH to NR and then having them AC electrified all the way to Marylebone. The station should have the capacity needed to handle north of Moor Park if the Wycombe services go over to Crossrail. To expand the mainline offering though you would need to remove these via Amersham services as well though. My personal preference would be either a flyover at Neasden to the Dudding Hill line and a chord down to either Crossrail or the WCML, or a tunnel down to the WCML to gain access to Euston.

Either way would leave Marylebone solely to the mainline offering.

 

[The Planner]

In doing the 'Chiltern Route' you probably do:

Hatton-Wilmcote

Even if the rest was done I suspect you would struggle to get a decent business case for it and may end up as a Leamington - Stratford diesel shuttle.

Leamington-Coventry

Part of the electric spine being done in CP5

Moor Street-Worcester Shrub Hill

Again, I think they may struggle to get the numbers to add up past Kidderminster.

Coventry-Nuneaton

Part of the electric spine being done in CP5

as well as the 'Coventry Crossrail' service of Nuneaton-Leamington,

Not going to happen, you cannot get the trains across Coventry. Coventry to Nuneaton service will be enhanced if the £££ are there and Kenilworth will be out on a limb either as an extension to New St to Cov locals or as a Leamington - Cov shuttle.

 

[Chris125]

Hatton-Wilmcote

Even if the rest was done I suspect you would struggle to get a decent business case for it and may end up as a Leamington - Stratford diesel shuttle.

While the service frequency wouldn't justify electrification, i'm sure the wider strategic benefits would justify the pretty minimal expense especially if there's no major bridge work required.

Chris

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

While the service frequency wouldn't justify electrification, i'm sure the wider strategic benefits would justify the pretty minimal expense especially if there's no major bridge work required.
Chris

Once enough wires have gone up to displace all the Pacers, there is no business case for more until the next lot of DMUs come up for replacement.
I would guess we are close to that now. It depends how long the 150s have left.
This is for local services. Wiring for inter-city and freight might still proceed because of the network benefit.
Even so, what do you do with nearly-new fleets of (eg) class 172s and Voyagers with nowhere to run?
This is not a comment about Leamington-Stratford, more about tempering the mad rush about "who's next" for electrification generally.

 

[HSTEd]

The 150s have little more time than the Pacers really.

 

[tbtc]

It depends how long the 150s have left

The 150s have little more time than the Pacers really.

150s have a lot longer left in them, since they'd be much easier to convert to DDA compliant trains (e.g. they don't have the akward step of a Pacer)

 

[ainsworth74]

How about some food for thought? In 1981 a joint DoT/BR report into the case for futher electrification was published. This report contained a number of options all of which had good rates of return on the investment with the highest rates being generated by the largest and fastest option.

The scale of this proposed network? Wires from Aberdeen to Penzance and most every mainline in between (Chiltern is the only real exception, but this is 1981 and a proposal to turn Marylebone into a coach station is about to arrive). The time frame? Twenty to thirty years with most of the work completed by the early 00s. The cost? £24m to £42m for the first fifteen years (with some years costing £60m). The result? 80% of passenger traffic and 70% of fright traffic would be electrically operated. And here we are struggling to get the wires to Exeter (let alone beyond)!

This is not to say that the 900 miles we're getting in the next seven years or so isn't something to be celebrated (it is). But when you look at what was on the table it does rather pale in comparison. The period of 1990 - 2009 is going to look like nineteen long wasted years in the not to distant future (if not already). You have to wonder what might have been achieved if the governments of that period had decided to invest.

For reference this is a map of that network prosed back in 1981:

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You have to wonder what might have been achieved if the governments of that period had decided to invest.

The Scottish HLOS, though disappointing in the short term, did have a commitment to electrify 100stkm a year for the foreseeable future after the current EGIP routes.
It would be really interesting if the DfT gave a similar commitment (a higher annual rate obviously) for England and Wales so that Network Rail can work out the best order to do things in, tying in with rolling stock replacement etc.
On the other hand it's good to live in a period when the government seems to be falling over itself to spend on rail.
History shows that the money tap can be turned off - quite quickly...

Mod Note - wider discussion of Energy Policy has been moved to a separate thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=75695

 

[Waverley125]

Even if the rest was done I suspect you would struggle to get a decent business case for it and may end up as a Leamington - Stratford diesel shuttle.



Part of the electric spine being done in CP5


Again, I think they may struggle to get the numbers to add up past Kidderminster.



Part of the electric spine being done in CP5



Not going to happen, you cannot get the trains across Coventry. Coventry to Nuneaton service will be enhanced if the £££ are there and Kenilworth will be out on a limb either as an extension to New St to Cov locals or as a Leamington - Cov shuttle.

So....I do know some things are being done as part of electric spine...this is a holistic consideration of Chiltern's operating area.

Remember, nobody likes a pedant.

Specifically, on Leam-Stratford, I don't think this will be a problem. As a very short stretch, as part of Birmingham-Stratford, the additional cost will be minimal, for seeing it keeps Stratford with direct services to London. Remember, Stratford is a huge tourist trap, and these trains are usually well-loaded.

South of Kidderminster, there are quicker routes into Worcester, but if Droitwich-Worcester is done as part of the eventual Birmingham-Cardiff via Gloucester/Bristol wiring, then the short section will again be fairly minimal cost for large benefit, of providing an electrified diversionary route to Worcester south jcn. as well as the second cross-city line. Moreover I have a strong suspicion that Worcester-Hereford-Newport might also get done as part of the same project.

 

[bailey65]

Back on topic i am wondering if in the distant future overhead wires will eventually replace third rail although that would be quite some undertaking in the southern england.
Apart from subway systems is the uk the only country that has a third rail system for main line railways.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not in the distant future but the next few years! Wires are replacing third-rail from Southampton to Basingstoke (I think that's as far as it's going) so that process is already starting.

 

[jopsuk]

Apart from subway systems is the uk the only country that has a third rail system for main line railways.

Not true; the Long Island Railroad in the US is 3rd rail electrified, with electro diesel (as the outer sections aren't electrified) locomotives hauling double decker carriages along it

(there's also other routes into New York that have "last mile" 3rd rail as the "last mile" and terminal is in tunnels)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Not in the distant future but the next few years! Wires are replacing third-rail from Southampton to Basingstoke (I think that's as far as it's going) so that process is already starting.

Agreed and as they become life expired third rail will be replaced with 25kV AC OHLE. Personally (and this is not hindsight I thought it so in 1985 on a Class 73 Hauled tour) I would never have done Clapham to Wilesden Jct 3rd rail - I would have done OHLE Willesden to Kensington Olympia and made the switch to DC there. Anyway, heavily trafficked and medium traffic diesel routes with no juice must have priority and existing 3rd rail only as it comes up for replacement. All routes out of London Waterloo would be sensible IMHO before starting on London Victoria.

 

[ainsworth74]

The prospect of wiring Clapham Junction fills me with dread and I'm not even a OHLE engineer! Once we get close to London it's going to be one hell of a complex program to deliver.

 

[Eagle]

Actually here's a thought. Southampton Central to St Denys will need to remain doubly electrified for Southern services (unless 377s go slow enough past St Denys to raise the pantograph—if they have one).