Electrification - More Than 900 Route Miles

[YorkshireBear]

The prospect of wiring Clapham Junction fills me with dread and I'm not even a OHLE engineer! Once we get close to London it's going to be one hell of a complex program to deliver.

Dread doesn't quite cover it. Im a civils and it makes me want to cry. Structures wise it will be bad, and i can imagine the reinforcement going into the foundation pads :/

 

[Lrd]

Actually here's a thought. Southampton Central to St Denys will need to remain doubly electrified for Southern services (unless 377s go slow enough past St Denys to raise the pantograph—if they have one).

Just after St Denys (from Southampton) is a rather sharp curve and is only 20mph so the trains creep through the station.

Or just send everything via Eastleigh and switch over in the platform.

 

[cle]

I think to Weymouth and Waterloo would be the next steps, followed by Portsmouth and the diversions via Eastleigh/Fareham. Some parts of the SWML could easily be raised to 125mph.

After that either the remaining outer routes (Salisbury/Exeter, Alton) - but I imagine the Brighton mainline is a key route - not least because of Thameslink. But that's another complete web.

Other places might be cost effective which currently receive Javelins on third rail too. Combined with Crossrail extensions along North Kent which would be OHLE too - surely some efficiencies to be had there.

 

[mr_jrt]

Agreed and as they become life expired third rail will be replaced with 25kV AC OHLE. Personally (and this is not hindsight I thought it so in 1985 on a Class 73 Hauled tour) I would never have done Clapham to Wilesden Jct 3rd rail - I would have done OHLE Willesden to Kensington Olympia and made the switch to DC there.

The switch is done where it is as the H&C's signalling would need major work to immunise it against the AC. It's being resignalled in the near future, so they're waiting until then and will do down to Shepherd's Bush. They've chosen there as a) it's better to do so at a station stop as you say, and b) it means Southern can use DC-only units to operate Clapham Junction-Shepherd's Bush.

I agree though that ideally the wires should continue down to platform 1&2 & 16&17 at Clapham Junction...or at the very least Imperial Wharf

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The switch is done where it is as the H&C's signalling would need major work to immunise it against the AC. It's being resignalled in the near future, so they're waiting until then and will do down to Shepherd's Bush. They've chosen there as a) it's better to do so at a station stop as you say, and b) it means Southern can use DC-only units to operate Clapham Junction-Shepherd's Bush.

I agree though that ideally the wires should continue down to platform 1&2 & 16&17 at Clapham Junction...or at the very least Imperial Wharf

I thought one reason AC ran out where it does on the WL was the low A40 overbridge?
They also wanted 373s to reach North Pole on DC to avoid another changeover.
It was also resignalled under Victoria which had no other AC.

 

[joeykins82]

I remember reading some speculation (or possibly a leak?) that the AC conversion would go through to Poole rather than being curtailed at Southampton.

I reckon that AC conversion will proceed eastwards/anticlockwise but until all of the DC-only rolling stock is replaced with something that can actually have a pantograph fitted (looking at you 455/465/466) it won't intrude in to London beyond the "pretty much everything stops here" stations (Staines, Woking, Sutton, East Croydon, Bromley South, Orpington, Dartford).

My guess is that the next stage will of the conversion programme will be:
Woking-Southampton via Guildford & Fareham + Portsmouth harbour branch
Eastleigh-Fareham
Woking-Basingtoke & Alton
Aldershot-Guildford

If it goes that way it'll be interesting to see whether Salisbury-Basingstoke/Southampton/Eastleigh and Wokingham-Reigate get wired at the same time.

The logistics of converting Clapham Junction to AC are quite horrific; I don't know whether it'd be possible to convert the lines through to Waterloo without also converting the lines in to Victoria. If you convert the Sussex side of Victoria without the Kent side does it introduce too much risk to services in times of disruption? Could Clapham Junction work as a DC changeover for Victoria services or would AC have to be extended to Wandsworth Common or Balham? Could a line speed changeover back to DC work reliably or would it be better to go out to Streatham Hill, East Croydon & Sutton? Does the cost of making East Croydon dual-voltage cause the economic model to break down?

Perhaps at some point we'll see all of the OHLE put up throughout London but left disconnected apart from scheduled testing, then there'll be a total London DC area network shutdown while all of the AC kit is commissioned. Or, maybe DC is here to stay inside the z6 boundary because conversion is more hassle than it's worth!

 

[The Ham]

I remember reading some speculation (or possibly a leak?) that the AC conversion would go through to Poole rather than being curtailed at Southampton.

I reckon that AC conversion will proceed eastwards/anticlockwise but until all of the DC-only rolling stock is replaced with something that can actually have a pantograph fitted (looking at you 455/465/466) it won't intrude in to London beyond the "pretty much everything stops here" stations (Staines, Woking, Sutton, East Croydon, Bromley South, Orpington, Dartford).

My guess is that the next stage will of the conversion programme will be:
Woking-Southampton via Guildford & Fareham + Portsmouth harbour branch
Eastleigh-Fareham
Woking-Basingtoke & Alton
Aldershot-Guildford

If it goes that way it'll be interesting to see whether Salisbury-Basingstoke/Southampton/Eastleigh and Wokingham-Reigate get wired at the same time.

The logistics of converting Clapham Junction to AC are quite horrific; I don't know whether it'd be possible to convert the lines through to Waterloo without also converting the lines in to Victoria. If you convert the Sussex side of Victoria without the Kent side does it introduce too much risk to services in times of disruption? Could Clapham Junction work as a DC changeover for Victoria services or would AC have to be extended to Wandsworth Common or Balham? Could a line speed changeover back to DC work reliably or would it be better to go out to Streatham Hill, East Croydon & Sutton? Does the cost of making East Croydon dual-voltage cause the economic model to break down?

Perhaps at some point we'll see all of the OHLE put up throughout London but left disconnected apart from scheduled testing, then there'll be a total London DC area network shutdown while all of the AC kit is commissioned. Or, maybe DC is here to stay inside the z6 boundary because conversion is more hassle than it's worth!

Maybe you read it here:
http://www.therailengineer.com/2012/10/09/an-electrifying-conference/

Currently, Network Rail is working on the North West Electrification programme as well as Maidenhead to Cardiff on the Great Western. In 2013 the Welsh valley lines, the Midland Main Line, and Basingstoke to Reading will be added and the DC to AC conversion between Poole and Basingstoke will take place.

I'd re-order your list a little:
Woking-Basingtoke (as it would be a fairly easy line to electrify) & Alton
Woking-Southampton via Guildford & Fareham + Portsmouth harbour branch
Eastleigh-Fareham
Aldershot-Guildford PLUS to Reading (so that all the XC routes through Reading can convert to EMU's with a few logical infills further north)

If you just stick to the SWML side of Clapham Junction it'll be easier, but that's likely to be some time off - probably after the class 455's need replacing.

 

[IanXC]

Mod Note - wider discussion of Energy Policy has been moved to a separate thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=75695

 

[joeykins82]

<words words words>

Yeah that's the source! I think it was linked here a while back, there was a bit of "GOBLIN electrification?" surprise too. Waiting for NR's CP5 stuff.

And yeah, your order makes more sense, I just did a brain dump of what would be required to get everything on those routes electrified in no particular order of completion!

 

[YorkshireBear]

www.railwayherald.co.uk

Hull back on the agenda? Under a scheme being fronted by First Hull Trains, i imagine this will be, guarantee paths for 25 years and we will invest?

 

[IanXC]

www.railwayherald.co.uk

Hull back on the agenda? Under a scheme being fronted by First Hull Trains, i imagine this will be, guarantee paths for 25 years and we will invest?

It would seem so. The £100m is mooted to include the OHLE (estimated at £1.5m per mile, 35 miles, but very few structures require work), a new fleet of EMUs and a new depot in Hull. I presume there'll be a Chiltern style facility charge.

Not sure about 25 years, but I don't think a track access application could possibly look better than this would! There is a separate thread for this question: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=75530

 

[YorkshireBear]

It would seem so. The £100m is mooted to include the OHLE (estimated at £1.5m per mile, 35 miles, but very few structures require work), a new fleet of EMUs and a new depot in Hull. I presume there'll be a Chiltern style facility charge.

Not sure about 25 years, but I don't think a track access application could possibly look better than this would! There is a separate thread for this question: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=75530

tried finding the thread! sorry!
I commented in it! yeah my brain had a spack.

 

[76020]

Dread doesn't quite cover it. Im a civils and it makes me want to cry. Structures wise it will be bad, and i can imagine the reinforcement going into the foundation pads :/

If you want to look at what Clapham Junction may look like in say 20-25 years time then have a look outside Brussells Midi Station, there are huge cross-spans covering about 15-20 tracks to support the overhead wires all at 3000V DC!
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