Elizabeth Line: Passengers confused over whether it's a tube or train line and what should be done about it.

[Haywain]

the price difference between GWR & TfL.

What price difference is that?

 

[Mikey C]

If we didn't have the daft situation of separate pricing to use the Liz Line to Heathrow, then most of the problems would go away.

Yes I know it's because the airport owns that tunnel, but it's illogical for any visitor that there's a "Liz Line" premium over the Underground to access Heathrow, but not elsewhere.

 

[owidoe]

We ought to get rid of TfL's silly privileges with regards to ticketing and make the entire network a TOC, or multiple, to avoid this nonsense. GWR from Baker St to King's Cross, anyone?

 

[Wolfie]

We ought to get rid of TfL's silly privileges with regards to ticketing and make the entire network a TOC, or multiple, to avoid this nonsense. GWR from Baker St to King's Cross, anyone?

Firstly the Elizabeth line is operated by a single TOC albeit one contracted by TfL and not DfT.

Secondly how to seriously impact integrated ticketing in London.

Thirdly the Elizabeth line was built primarily to deal with transport issues in London not those further afield. Your suggestion if implemented would likely result in the opposite.

Fourthly because National Rail ticketing is such a model of simplicity and transparency not an opaque rats nest often verging on duplicity or even stupidity, huh....

 

[Surreytraveller]

We ought to get rid of TfL's silly privileges with regards to ticketing and make the entire network a TOC, or multiple, to avoid this nonsense. GWR from Baker St to King's Cross, anyone?

If it was one or the other it would be simpler. But it's both combined, which is what makes it complicated

 

[jon81uk]

What price difference is that?

I don't know, but the poster I responded to was alluding that there is a difference between paper tickets and contactless when travelling between Reading & Bond Street.

 

[Haywain]

I don't know, but the poster I responded to was alluding that there is a difference between paper tickets and contactless when travelling between Reading & Bond Street.

There might be, but both are equally valid on GWR and TfL. There are differences of this nature wherever contactless fares exist in the London area.

 

[AdamWW]

I don't know, but the poster I responded to was alluding that there is a difference between paper tickets and contactless when travelling between Reading & Bond Street.

No, I thought that there was a considerable difference (both with paper tickets and contactless) between a Reading <> Paddington journey and a Reading <> Bond Street journey because the latter is treated as a mixed-mode journey changing from National Rail to the Underground.

Even though (if you did it all on the Elizabeth Line) there is no change of train to continue to Bond Street and both stations are in zone 1.

 

[stuu]

People buying the wrong ticket and getting prosecuted . For example;Using a london underground ticket to Heathrow

Fair enough, that is quite an obvious problem. And not necessarily something a tourist with limited English might pick up from a message on a ticket machine screen

If we didn't have the daft situation of separate pricing to use the Liz Line to Heathrow, then most of the problems would go away.

Yes I know it's because the airport owns that tunnel, but it's illogical for any visitor that there's a "Liz Line" premium over the Underground to access Heathrow, but not elsewhere.

Not at all unusual at airports worldwide though

 

[Mikey C]

Not at all unusual at airports worldwide though

But other airports don't have a situation where one line (the Elizabeth) is dearer than another (Piccadilly) when the former isn't a "premium" service, and in central London is just treated as another "tube line".

 

[Bletchleyite]

But other airports don't have a situation where one line (the Elizabeth) is dearer than another (Piccadilly) when the former isn't a "premium" service, and in central London is just treated as another "tube line".

It's the same price now, isn't it? TfL have applied the "peak pricing at all times" thing to the Piccadilly Line now.

 

[jon81uk]

No, I thought that there was a considerable difference (both with paper tickets and contactless) between a Reading <> Paddington journey and a Reading <> Bond Street journey because the latter is treated as a mixed-mode journey changing from National Rail to the Underground.

Even though (if you did it all on the Elizabeth Line) there is no change of train to continue to Bond Street and both stations are in zone 1.

I'm guessing this is because the fare was set before the Elizabeth Line was started and it therefore can't be changed because of the revenue split between TfL and GWR, if they made it cheaper to go direct instead of change at Paddington then GWR would complain?

It's the same price now, isn't it? TfL have applied the "peak pricing at all times" thing to the Piccadilly Line now.

No, there is a seperate premium charged by Heathrow airport to use the National Rail tracks into Heathrow. Therefore Elizabeth Line is a much higher fare than the Underground where TfL own the track not Heathrow.

 

[AdamWW]

I'm guessing this is because the fare was set before the Elizabeth Line was started and it therefore can't be changed because of the revenue split between TfL and GWR, if they made it cheaper to go direct instead of change at Paddington then GWR would complain?

I think it's about increasing TfL revenue compared to treating it as part of National Rail like Thameslink.

But other airports don't have a situation where one line (the Elizabeth) is dearer than another (Piccadilly) when the former isn't a "premium" service, and in central London is just treated as another "tube line".

Barcelona appears to have something similar.

Except it's the Metro that doesn't accept regular tickets to the airport and the suburban trains that do.

 

[Haywain]

But other airports don't have a situation where one line (the Elizabeth) is dearer than another (Piccadilly)

When I flew into Tokyo Narita airport a few years ago, there were two separate railway companies offering services to Narita town and Tokyo from their own platforms. I don't know if the fares were different but the tickets were not interavailable as far as I could ascertain.

 

[AdamWW]

When I flew into Tokyo Narita airport a few years ago, there were two separate railway companies offering services to Narita town and Tokyo from their own platforms. I don't know if the fares were different but the tickets were not interavailable as far as I could ascertain.

I expect it's not the only place with that sort of thing.

But I'd say that London is a bit different as both are part of the same fare structure but with a Special Exception for the Elizabeth line.

 

[stuu]

When I flew into Tokyo Narita airport a few years ago, there were two separate railway companies offering services to Narita town and Tokyo from their own platforms. I don't know if the fares were different but the tickets were not interavailable as far as I could ascertain.

Yes Narita is definitely different prices, there's at least 4 different prices, depending on speed and operator

 

[JKF]

Calling it Crossrail would set a bad precedent for future Crossrail 2 etc. because you would have to call it Crossrail 2 logically. While Elizabeth line is not perfect (although Lizzie Line is a fun nickname to shorten it) and it would have been better off being called '____ground' (insert preposition), it's fine for now though
Introducing Crossrail 2: The Charles Line! This line is not a tube, rail, light rail or whatever reasonable! Broxbourne to Epsom in Parry People Movers!!!

Crossrail 2 is to be called the ‘Line of Charlie’ in honour of our esteemed king. I think Gideon Osborne chose the title… (allegedly)

 

[matt_world2004]

Fair enough, that is quite an obvious problem. And not necessarily something a tourist with limited English might pick up from a message on a ticket machine screen


Not at all unusual at airports worldwide though

It doesn't help that if you get a paper london underground ticket to Heathrow printed on it is "also valid on the Elizabeth line" when the reality is that is only reffering to the core stations

 

[Mr. SW]

I maintain they missed a trick and should have called it "Elizabeth Link" like "Thameslink" and then further lines in a similar vein could be called [Whatever] Link.

They could have named it after the Princess Royal and we would have "Anne Line" in order to confuse grammarians and pedants: "How do I get to [Placename]", "You take the Anne Line"...

 

[matt_world2004]

Any service that is a train that doesn't except LU tickets should not have a tfl roundel or be branded as a line IMHO it just confused people. Particularly those who may not be proficient In English

The Leslie green / Harry Beck ideal of making the network as simple tp understand as possible has been given secondary consideration to corporate branding and royal sycophancy making the network unesesscarily confusing . Under no circumstances should branding cause people to accidentally fare evade


It doesn't matter how rare paper tickets are on the underground or Elizabeth line . People think its a tube line because its branded like a tube line . The lines colour scheme should have also been separated as much as possible from the Heathrow expresses purple colour scheme so people do not get confused between those two services at Heathrow

 

[Wolfie]

Crossrail 2 is to be called the ‘Line of Charlie’ in honour of our esteemed king. I think Gideon Osborne chose the title… (allegedly)

A few might sniff at that name....

Any service that is a train that doesn't except LU tickets should not have a tfl roundel or be branded as a line IMHO it just confused people. Particularly those who may not be proficient In English

The Leslie green / Harry Beck ideal of making the network as simple tp understand as possible has been given secondary consideration to corporate branding and royal sycophancy making the network unesesscarily confusing . Under no circumstances should branding cause people to accidentally fare evade


It doesn't matter how rare paper tickets are on the underground or Elizabeth line . People think its a tube line because its branded like a tube line . The lines colour scheme should have also been separated as much as possible from the Heathrow expresses purple colour scheme so people do not get confused between those two services at Heathrow

It is the TfL roundel not the LU roundel..... All TfL sponsored services use the roundel but LU tickets aren't valid on most of them.

 

[infobleep]

If there isn't an alternative it doesn't need to, and if there is an alternative it specifies what that is so anything else is the default.

The thing is the default route isn't always the fastest so doesn't show up if you do a journey planner search.

I would expect the fastest route to be the default.

I think the inclusion of "Line" doesn't really help making the Elizabeth look like another underground line when it isn't.

This confusion doesn't seem to affect the Overground much as it is mostly used by locals & commuters rather than tourists & non-locals?

The Elizabeth should be branded as simply Crossrail also if future Crossrails get built then this can become "Crossrail 1" thus the Crossrail network can be numbered while the underground have named lines.

So... if TfL doesn't budge on this, then we might have "Philip Line" to look forward to when and if Crossrail 2 gets built?

I've sure I read on this forum a proposal to name each of the London Overground lines.

I liked the name Crossrail.

I maintain they missed a trick and should have called it "Elizabeth Link" like "Thameslink" and then further lines in a similar vein could be called [Whatever] Link.

They could have named it after the Princess Royal and we would have "Anne Line" to confuse grammarians and pedants: "How do I get to [Placename]", "You take the Anne Line"...

That would lead to the Waterloo & City Link instead of the Waterloo & City Line.

With the Elizabeth Line, there clearly is confusion or TfL wouldn't be mentioning it. It's not exactly a good news story
Cc

 

[Samzino]

Messroom gossip but I heard that if crossrail 2 did get the go ahead to progress then the Elizabeth line would rebrand back to the crossrail brand.

 

[hkstudent]

Messroom gossip but I heard that if crossrail 2 did get the go ahead to progress then the Elizabeth line would rebrand back to the crossrail brand.

That’s defo a gossip LOL

 

[PTR 444]

That’s defo a gossip LOL

When the existing EL signs become life expired, I expect there will be an opportunity to rebrand back to Crossrail then.

 

[Basil Jet]

When the existing EL signs become life expired, I expect there will be an opportunity to rebrand back to Crossrail then.

Most of the ancient-looking roundels on tube stations are modern replacements in heritage style. Since the EL stations will presumably be listed by then, any replacement signs would presumably match the originals.

 

[stuu]

It doesn't help that if you get a paper london underground ticket to Heathrow printed on it is "also valid on the Elizabeth line" when the reality is that is only reffering to the core stations

That's quite astonishing. Wonder what would happen if that ended up in court?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When the existing EL signs become life expired, I expect there will be an opportunity to rebrand back to Crossrail then.

Presumably there would be the Crossrail Elizabeth Line and the Crossrail Charles Line or whatever.

 

[JonathanH]

Messroom gossip but I heard that if crossrail 2 did get the go ahead to progress then the Elizabeth line would rebrand back to the crossrail brand.

It is so far away from construction that a) gossip now is irrelevant and b) it will have been known as the Elizabeth Line for long enough that people will have forgotten it was ever known as Crossrail.

 

[Wolfie]

When the existing EL signs become life expired, I expect there will be an opportunity to rebrand back to Crossrail then.

Doubt it. Hasn't happened with other lines and you just know that the Daily Heil et al would spin it as a massive insult to the late Queen.

It doesn't help that if you get a paper london underground ticket to Heathrow printed on it is "also valid on the Elizabeth line" when the reality is that is only reffering to the core stations

If that is actually so TfL are massively violating consumer protection legislation and would be crucified in a Court.