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Elizabeth line ticketing

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Sleepy

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So if I buy Ingatestone to Acton Main line off peak day return a break of journey at Farringdon (or any other zone 1 station) is not permitted if I'm reading this thread correctly ?
 
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Watershed

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So if I buy Ingatestone to Acton Main line off peak day return a break of journey at Farringdon (or any other zone 1 station) is not permitted if I'm reading this thread correctly ?
That's TfL's position and so I would expect problems at the barrier line upon trying to re-enter.

But it does not match the position under the NRCoT, namely that if Crossrail forms part of the shortest route, it is no different to any other line, hence break of journey is permitted on a walkup ticket. Accordingly if you were denied re-entry and were told you had to pay an additional fare, that additional fare would be recoverable from TfL.
 

hkstudent

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That's TfL's position and so I would expect problems at the barrier line upon trying to re-enter.

But it does not match the position under the NRCoT, namely that if Crossrail forms part of the shortest route, it is no different to any other line, hence break of journey is permitted on a walkup ticket. Accordingly if you were denied re-entry and were told you had to pay an additional fare, that additional fare would be recoverable from TfL.
It's been a long issue for TfL managed NR-LU co-located stations having issues with break of journeys particularly at Stratford and West Ham
 

Starmill

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Isn't HS2 more for an increase in revenue by way of charging substantially more people a lower fare?
It's a possibility, but good luck finding anything official that suggests that real prices will be lower at the opening of HS2 than they are today. i.e. the current expectation is for prices to rise above inflation every year until HS2 opening, and all (non-binding) statements are simply that it won't be more expensive than the classic ICWC service.
 

Silver Cobra

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Would anyone know if tickets with either Annual Gold or Network Railcard discounts applied to them are valid for use on the Elizabeth Line? I've been looking through BRFares and on National Rail Enquiries as I'm planning to use an Annual Gold-discounted Arlesey to London Zones 1-6 outboundary travelcard next Saturday to travel to Custom House on the Elizabeth Line, and so far I've only seen fares for railcards other than Annual Gold or Network. As such, I want to be sure that tickets with these particular railcard discounts applied are also valid on the Elizabeth Line before attempting to travel next weekend.
 

Haywain

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Would anyone know if tickets with either Annual Gold or Network Railcard discounts applied to them are valid for use on the Elizabeth Line? I've been looking through BRFares and on National Rail Enquiries as I'm planning to use an Annual Gold-discounted Arlesey to London Zones 1-6 outboundary travelcard next Saturday to travel to Custom House on the Elizabeth Line, and so far I've only seen fares for railcards other than Annual Gold or Network. As such, I want to be sure that tickets with these particular railcard discounts applied are also valid on the Elizabeth Line before attempting to travel next weekend.
That will be valid.
 

Bungaroosh

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No doubt a simplistic question (I've had brain-ache trying to understand a lot of the discussion in this thread).

What is Crossrail? Is it National Rail? Is it London Underground? Is it a hybrid of both? Is is directly comparable with Thameslink [which I think of as very much National Rail, and not remotely London Underground]? Or it it something new and utterly unique, with no parallels or precedents?

Maybe this would draw philosophical responses rather than anything definitive!

(And not to digress into a stormy topic but I will resist referring to it by its nauseatingly sycophantic official name.)
 

Haywain

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What is Crossrail? Is it National Rail? Is it London Underground? Is it a hybrid of both? Is is directly comparable with Thameslink [which I think of as very much National Rail, and not remotely London Underground]? Or it it something new and utterly unique, with no parallels or precedents?
It is not comparable to Thameslink and, as fare as the central section is concerned, is operated by TfL who consider it as part of their network (of underground/overground). As such, 'U zone' tickets will be required for travelling to and from stations between Abbey Wood and Paddington (other than Liverpool Street from the Shenfield direction, and Paddington from the Reading direction). The outer sections are more like a hybrid of London Overground and National Rail.
 

Mikw

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Just want to confirm that if i just want to come down on Tuesday to ride the "core" section, this will priced at usual underground fares and subject to Oyster Capping - like any other journey between Paddington/Liverpool Street would be? And would a break at Farringdon for lunch be ok?
 

Haywain

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Just want to confirm that if i just want to come down on Tuesday to ride the "core" section, this will priced at usual underground fares and subject to Oyster Capping - like any other journey between Paddington/Liverpool Street would be? And would a break at Farringdon for lunch be ok?
You would be making two journeys at normal underground rates and subject to normal daily capping.
 

Starmill

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It is not comparable to Thameslink and, as fare as the central section is concerned, is operated by TfL who consider it as part of their network (of underground/overground). As such, 'U zone' tickets will be required for travelling to and from stations between Abbey Wood and Paddington
And of course U zone tickets aren't strictly valid on most of London Overground, only the DC and East London lines, and the other handful of routes where London Underground tickets are valid on National Rail services. Though at their discretion London Overground might accept them elsewhere.
 

Haywain

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And of course U zone tickets aren't strictly valid on most of London Overground, only the DC and East London lines, and the other handful of routes where London Underground tickets are valid on National Rail services. Though at their discretion London Overground might accept them elsewhere.
Yes, but we wouldn't want things getting too simple, would we!!
 

Watershed

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No doubt a simplistic question (I've had brain-ache trying to understand a lot of the discussion in this thread).

What is Crossrail? Is it National Rail? Is it London Underground? Is it a hybrid of both? Is is directly comparable with Thameslink [which I think of as very much National Rail, and not remotely London Underground]? Or it it something new and utterly unique, with no parallels or precedents?

Maybe this would draw philosophical responses rather than anything definitive!

(And not to digress into a stormy topic but I will resist referring to it by its nauseatingly sycophantic official name.)
It is a service not really neatly falling into either category. It is run by a TfL-contracted operator, on infrastructure owned by TfL (in the "core", i.e. Paddington-Abbey Wood/Stratford). The core stations will be managed by a mixture of MTR (TfL) and London Underground.

If you buy a paper/smartcard National Rail ticket then your journey will, in most circumstances, be subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel and it would be a National Rail service for those purposes. If you travel using Oyster/contactless, it would fall under the TfL Conditions of Carriage.

Whilst there are some similarities with the London Underground, I would see it as more akin to Thameslink in view of the fact that, in due course, there will be through services originating and terminating on Network Rail infrastructure.

TfL's position is that, for ticketing purposes, the core is equivalent to the Underground. This is true for Oyster/contactless purposes, as fares will be charged on the LU fare scale - meaning that a journey from West Drayton to Farringdon will cost more than travelling to Paddington, as opposed to Thameslink where travelling from East Croydon to Farringdon costs the same as travelling to Blackfriars.

However there will be instances where paper NR tickets will be valid on the line in the same way as they would be on any other National Rail services. This means that intermediate break of journey will be permitted, something which TfL deny is the case. They also deny that Abbey Wood to London Terminals paper tickets will be valid to travel to Liverpool Street, insisting that LU zonal tickets are required.

For most people these will likely be trite points, but there will be some who may be wrongly denied access, overcharged etc. as a result.
 
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miklcct

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However there will be instances where paper NR tickets will be valid on the line in the same way as they would be on any other National Rail services. This means that intermediate break of journey will be permitted, something which TfL deny is the case. They also deny that Abbey Wood to London Terminals paper tickets will be valid to travel to Liverpool Street, insisting that LU zonal tickets are required.


National Rail Enquiries is now showing a London Terminals ticket from Abbey Wood valid to both Liverpool Street and Paddington.
 

JonathanH

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TfL's position is that, for ticketing purposes, the core is equivalent to the Underground. This is true for Oyster/contactless purposes, as fares will be charged on the LU fare scale - meaning that a journey from West Drayton to Farringdon will cost more than travelling to Paddington, as opposed to Thameslink where travelling from East Croydon to Farringdon costs the same as travelling to Blackfriars.
Slight correction. West Drayton to Paddington and West Drayton to Farringdon, indeed West Drayton to Abbey Wood as well, are all the same fare (ie LU 1-6) because West Drayton to Paddington is already on the LU scale. Fares from Iver and beyond have the differential you describe, which, as you say, does not happen on Thameslink.
 

miklcct

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For a journey from Abbey Wood to Paddington:

National Rail Enquiries suggests a single ticket to London Terminals
LNER sells the above as well
CrossCountry sells a ticket to London Underground zones 1-4
Trainsplit sells two tickets and charges commission compared to a Travelcard.
 

Watershed

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National Rail Enquiries is now showing a London Terminals ticket from Abbey Wood valid to both Liverpool Street and Paddington.
Indeed, which reflects the contractual validity. However, how long until TfL get RDG to add a negative easement or re-route the fares (as they already did with Abbey Wood etc. to Farringdon)? I also expect you would have difficulties exiting at Liverpool Street with such a ticket, regardless of being in the right.

TfL clearly recognise that certain National Rail tickets are valid (Interrail, FIP etc.) so it's disappointing that they pretend ordinary single/return/season tickets aren't.
 

JonathanH

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National Rail Enquiries is now showing a London Terminals ticket from Abbey Wood valid to both Liverpool Street and Paddington.
Realistically who buys a London Terminals ticket from Abbey Wood though given Oyster and Contectless fares are cheaper almost all of the time? (I think the only instance where the paper ticket for London Terminals to Abbey Wood would be cheaper to travel from Liverpool Street to Abbey Wood is out of London in the evening peak for a railcard holder in an instance where there is no benefit from capping or travelcard.)
 

Watershed

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Realistically who buys a London Terminals ticket from Abbey Wood though given Oyster and Contectless fares are cheaper almost all of the time? (I think the only instance where the paper ticket for London Terminals to Abbey Wood would be cheaper to travel from Liverpool Street to Abbey Wood is out of London in the evening peak for a railcard holder in an instance where there is no benefit from capping or travelcard.)
5 day a week peak time commuters to both Liverpool Street and Charing Cross/London Bridge etc. would be better off with a London Terminals season. Even more so if they occasionally travel to London on the weekend.
 

alistairlees

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For a journey from Abbey Wood to Paddington:

National Rail Enquiries suggests a single ticket to London Terminals
LNER sells the above as well
CrossCountry sells a ticket to London Underground zones 1-4
Trainsplit sells two tickets and charges commission compared to a Travelcard.
CrossCountry is correct and the rest are wrong.
 

miklcct

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Indeed, which reflects the contractual validity. However, how long until TfL get RDG to add a negative easement or re-route the fares (as they already did with Abbey Wood etc. to Farringdon)? I also expect you would have difficulties exiting at Liverpool Street with such a ticket, regardless of being in the right.

TfL clearly recognise that certain National Rail tickets are valid (Interrail, FIP etc.) so it's disappointing that they pretend ordinary single/return/season tickets aren't.

I don't see how a ticket from Abbey Wood or further to London Terminals can't be used to Liverpool Street as Liverpool Street is clearly the closest London Terminal reachable wholly by National Rail services on the direct line of route.
 

Watershed

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I don't see how a ticket from Abbey Wood or further to London Terminals can't be used to Liverpool Street as Liverpool Street is clearly the closest London Terminal reachable wholly by National Rail services on the direct line of route.
Well it's not quite the closest London Terminal - London Bridge is 9m54ch from Abbey Wood, vs Liverpool St LL which is 10m1ch.

But you would still be taking a direct train. And unless and until "London Terminals" is reduced to a specified list of stations (which would be far too long to be practical), it would still be the shortest route to one of the stations listed on the ticket (Liverpool Street being a London Terminal).
 

alistairlees

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I don't see how a ticket from Abbey Wood or further to London Terminals can't be used to Liverpool Street as Liverpool Street is clearly the closest London Terminal reachable wholly by National Rail services on the direct line of route.
It's a tube line, according to TfL and RDG; not a National Rail service. At least from a fares perspective. I don't necessarily agree with the approach to fares here, but that is how it is intended to be.
 

Starmill

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It's a tube line, according to TfL and RDG
I think that the real criticism here is of the position that it's a London Underground service only between Abbey Wood and London Paddington, while on the same through train it's prohibited to use London Underground tickets to Heathrow Airport.
 

talldave

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My 6 yr old is predictably excited about travelling on a new line. As far as I can tell he can travel for free with his 5-10 Oyster Zip on all of the Elizabeth line except to go beyond West Drayton on the Reading section. Have I got that right?
 

alistairlees

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I think that the real criticism here is of the position that it's a London Underground service only between Abbey Wood and London Paddington, while on the same through train it's prohibited to use London Underground tickets to Heathrow Airport.
Yes, you are correct. I was clear in my post that I don't necessarily agree with how fares for the Elizabeth line are set up. But they are as they are, and I was answering another point.
 

CyrusWuff

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It's a tube line, according to TfL and RDG; not a National Rail service. At least from a fares perspective. I don't necessarily agree with the approach to fares here, but that is how it is intended to be.
It's more complicated than that, especially when it comes to Staff Travel!
 
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