Sleepy
Established Member
So if I buy Ingatestone to Acton Main line off peak day return a break of journey at Farringdon (or any other zone 1 station) is not permitted if I'm reading this thread correctly ?
That's TfL's position and so I would expect problems at the barrier line upon trying to re-enter.So if I buy Ingatestone to Acton Main line off peak day return a break of journey at Farringdon (or any other zone 1 station) is not permitted if I'm reading this thread correctly ?
It's been a long issue for TfL managed NR-LU co-located stations having issues with break of journeys particularly at Stratford and West HamThat's TfL's position and so I would expect problems at the barrier line upon trying to re-enter.
But it does not match the position under the NRCoT, namely that if Crossrail forms part of the shortest route, it is no different to any other line, hence break of journey is permitted on a walkup ticket. Accordingly if you were denied re-entry and were told you had to pay an additional fare, that additional fare would be recoverable from TfL.
That's of course precisely the idea behind most new railways. For example HS2.
It's a possibility, but good luck finding anything official that suggests that real prices will be lower at the opening of HS2 than they are today. i.e. the current expectation is for prices to rise above inflation every year until HS2 opening, and all (non-binding) statements are simply that it won't be more expensive than the classic ICWC service.Isn't HS2 more for an increase in revenue by way of charging substantially more people a lower fare?
That will be valid.Would anyone know if tickets with either Annual Gold or Network Railcard discounts applied to them are valid for use on the Elizabeth Line? I've been looking through BRFares and on National Rail Enquiries as I'm planning to use an Annual Gold-discounted Arlesey to London Zones 1-6 outboundary travelcard next Saturday to travel to Custom House on the Elizabeth Line, and so far I've only seen fares for railcards other than Annual Gold or Network. As such, I want to be sure that tickets with these particular railcard discounts applied are also valid on the Elizabeth Line before attempting to travel next weekend.
That's good to know. Thank you for confirming.That will be valid.
No problem. Travelcards simply continue to cover everything in the zones as before.That's good to know. Thank you for confirming.
It is not comparable to Thameslink and, as fare as the central section is concerned, is operated by TfL who consider it as part of their network (of underground/overground). As such, 'U zone' tickets will be required for travelling to and from stations between Abbey Wood and Paddington (other than Liverpool Street from the Shenfield direction, and Paddington from the Reading direction). The outer sections are more like a hybrid of London Overground and National Rail.What is Crossrail? Is it National Rail? Is it London Underground? Is it a hybrid of both? Is is directly comparable with Thameslink [which I think of as very much National Rail, and not remotely London Underground]? Or it it something new and utterly unique, with no parallels or precedents?
You would be making two journeys at normal underground rates and subject to normal daily capping.Just want to confirm that if i just want to come down on Tuesday to ride the "core" section, this will priced at usual underground fares and subject to Oyster Capping - like any other journey between Paddington/Liverpool Street would be? And would a break at Farringdon for lunch be ok?
And of course U zone tickets aren't strictly valid on most of London Overground, only the DC and East London lines, and the other handful of routes where London Underground tickets are valid on National Rail services. Though at their discretion London Overground might accept them elsewhere.It is not comparable to Thameslink and, as fare as the central section is concerned, is operated by TfL who consider it as part of their network (of underground/overground). As such, 'U zone' tickets will be required for travelling to and from stations between Abbey Wood and Paddington
Yes, but we wouldn't want things getting too simple, would we!!And of course U zone tickets aren't strictly valid on most of London Overground, only the DC and East London lines, and the other handful of routes where London Underground tickets are valid on National Rail services. Though at their discretion London Overground might accept them elsewhere.
It is a service not really neatly falling into either category. It is run by a TfL-contracted operator, on infrastructure owned by TfL (in the "core", i.e. Paddington-Abbey Wood/Stratford). The core stations will be managed by a mixture of MTR (TfL) and London Underground.No doubt a simplistic question (I've had brain-ache trying to understand a lot of the discussion in this thread).
What is Crossrail? Is it National Rail? Is it London Underground? Is it a hybrid of both? Is is directly comparable with Thameslink [which I think of as very much National Rail, and not remotely London Underground]? Or it it something new and utterly unique, with no parallels or precedents?
Maybe this would draw philosophical responses rather than anything definitive!
(And not to digress into a stormy topic but I will resist referring to it by its nauseatingly sycophantic official name.)
However there will be instances where paper NR tickets will be valid on the line in the same way as they would be on any other National Rail services. This means that intermediate break of journey will be permitted, something which TfL deny is the case. They also deny that Abbey Wood to London Terminals paper tickets will be valid to travel to Liverpool Street, insisting that LU zonal tickets are required.
Slight correction. West Drayton to Paddington and West Drayton to Farringdon, indeed West Drayton to Abbey Wood as well, are all the same fare (ie LU 1-6) because West Drayton to Paddington is already on the LU scale. Fares from Iver and beyond have the differential you describe, which, as you say, does not happen on Thameslink.TfL's position is that, for ticketing purposes, the core is equivalent to the Underground. This is true for Oyster/contactless purposes, as fares will be charged on the LU fare scale - meaning that a journey from West Drayton to Farringdon will cost more than travelling to Paddington, as opposed to Thameslink where travelling from East Croydon to Farringdon costs the same as travelling to Blackfriars.
Indeed, which reflects the contractual validity. However, how long until TfL get RDG to add a negative easement or re-route the fares (as they already did with Abbey Wood etc. to Farringdon)? I also expect you would have difficulties exiting at Liverpool Street with such a ticket, regardless of being in the right.National Rail Enquiries is now showing a London Terminals ticket from Abbey Wood valid to both Liverpool Street and Paddington.
Realistically who buys a London Terminals ticket from Abbey Wood though given Oyster and Contectless fares are cheaper almost all of the time? (I think the only instance where the paper ticket for London Terminals to Abbey Wood would be cheaper to travel from Liverpool Street to Abbey Wood is out of London in the evening peak for a railcard holder in an instance where there is no benefit from capping or travelcard.)National Rail Enquiries is now showing a London Terminals ticket from Abbey Wood valid to both Liverpool Street and Paddington.
5 day a week peak time commuters to both Liverpool Street and Charing Cross/London Bridge etc. would be better off with a London Terminals season. Even more so if they occasionally travel to London on the weekend.Realistically who buys a London Terminals ticket from Abbey Wood though given Oyster and Contectless fares are cheaper almost all of the time? (I think the only instance where the paper ticket for London Terminals to Abbey Wood would be cheaper to travel from Liverpool Street to Abbey Wood is out of London in the evening peak for a railcard holder in an instance where there is no benefit from capping or travelcard.)
CrossCountry is correct and the rest are wrong.For a journey from Abbey Wood to Paddington:
National Rail Enquiries suggests a single ticket to London Terminals
LNER sells the above as well
CrossCountry sells a ticket to London Underground zones 1-4
Trainsplit sells two tickets and charges commission compared to a Travelcard.
Indeed, which reflects the contractual validity. However, how long until TfL get RDG to add a negative easement or re-route the fares (as they already did with Abbey Wood etc. to Farringdon)? I also expect you would have difficulties exiting at Liverpool Street with such a ticket, regardless of being in the right.
TfL clearly recognise that certain National Rail tickets are valid (Interrail, FIP etc.) so it's disappointing that they pretend ordinary single/return/season tickets aren't.
Well it's not quite the closest London Terminal - London Bridge is 9m54ch from Abbey Wood, vs Liverpool St LL which is 10m1ch.I don't see how a ticket from Abbey Wood or further to London Terminals can't be used to Liverpool Street as Liverpool Street is clearly the closest London Terminal reachable wholly by National Rail services on the direct line of route.
It's a tube line, according to TfL and RDG; not a National Rail service. At least from a fares perspective. I don't necessarily agree with the approach to fares here, but that is how it is intended to be.I don't see how a ticket from Abbey Wood or further to London Terminals can't be used to Liverpool Street as Liverpool Street is clearly the closest London Terminal reachable wholly by National Rail services on the direct line of route.
I think that the real criticism here is of the position that it's a London Underground service only between Abbey Wood and London Paddington, while on the same through train it's prohibited to use London Underground tickets to Heathrow Airport.It's a tube line, according to TfL and RDG
Yes, you are correct. I was clear in my post that I don't necessarily agree with how fares for the Elizabeth line are set up. But they are as they are, and I was answering another point.I think that the real criticism here is of the position that it's a London Underground service only between Abbey Wood and London Paddington, while on the same through train it's prohibited to use London Underground tickets to Heathrow Airport.
It's more complicated than that, especially when it comes to Staff Travel!It's a tube line, according to TfL and RDG; not a National Rail service. At least from a fares perspective. I don't necessarily agree with the approach to fares here, but that is how it is intended to be.