Elmstead Woods to St Pancras season - valid to Cannon Street?

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by MikeWh, 26 Nov 2013.

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  1. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    As the title says, would a season from Elmstead Woods to St Pancras be valid to other South London Terminals beyond London Bridge, specifically Cannon Street? My gut feel is no, but looking for any contra thoughts.
     
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  3. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    My interpreation of the Routeing Guide is also no. Only those on permitted routes to St Pancras specifically would be valid.
     
  4. Romilly

    Romilly Established Member

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    I don't have an answer to your actual question, but a season ticket to West Hampstead (not underground) looks to be cheaper (£1180 instead of £1244). Also, commuting Elmstead Woods to St Pancras would presumably suffer from the lack of rush-hour Thameslink trains to/from London Bridge.
     
  5. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    That's a good spot.

    My interpretation is that a ticket to St Pancras Route Not Underground is not valid into Cannon Street, however a ticket to West Hampstead Stns Route Not Underground is.

    Grove Park is the only appropriate routeing point for Elmstead Woods if the ticket is to West Hampstead Thameslink (why it is no longer West Hampstead Group I don't know). The yellow pages say that the permitted routeing is LONDON, therefore from Grove Park to London Group and from London Group to West Hampstead Thameslink.

    Now my understanding of the routeing restriction Not Underground is that you may not use LU services (unless on an interavailable route). Additionally it allows travel on Thameslink core without the need for a cross-London marker. It should not affect how permitted routes are derived. Cannon Street is on a permitted route between Grove Park and London Group, hence as long as you are happy to walk between Cannon Street and somewhere like Blackfriars, it should be permitted for you to travel into Cannon Street. (I believe Elmstead Woods - London Bridge - Cannon Street - (walk) - Blackfriars/City Thameslink/Farringdon, etc - St Pancras - West Hampstead Thameslink is a permitted route.)

    This is a quite different situation to a ticket between Elmstead Woods and St Pancras, where one does not need to "join up" permitted routes to and from London Group, therefore I think what you need is a changeover from the St Pancras ticket to the West Hampstead Stns ticket.

    The same logic can be applied to other south London terminals such as Waterloo and Victoria, provided that you are happy to incorporate a walk/bike/scooter/taxi leg into the "itinerary".

    Edit: Warning

    Not guaranteed to be trouble-free at Cannon Street gateline.
     
  6. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Brilliant! Thanks for the advice.

    BTW. The usual commute is to Cannon Street with occasional off-peak trips to St Pancras. I guess there needs to be a health warning about potential issues with gateline staff at Cannon Street.
     
  7. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Yes, potential for arguments at Cannon Street gateline would be real.

    I can't guarantee that my interpretation is 100% correct, however I cannot see anything to the contrary. This is the logical conclusion I have come to after following the Routeing Guide instructions.
     
  8. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    I guess walking between Cannon Street and Blackfriars would be reasonable given the lack of through trains from London Bridge in the peaks - soon to be even worse once the station loses all through services during the rebuild.
     
  9. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Doesn't the answer to the question depend on whether the occasional service on the west curve from Metropolitan Junction into Cannon Street counts as a service for shortest route purposes? It typically receives a service three or four weekends a year.

    11.25 Miles direct, and 12 Miles via CST (so within 3 miles).
     
  10. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    It would depend where that service goes. If it goes up Metropolitan spur to Blackfriars then it *might* be considered, but if it goes to Charing Cross, then you'd have to include the mileage to there and then back to London Bridge to get to St Pancras. Even if the latter was no more than three miles longer, I wouldn't like to be the one arguing the point on the day.
     
  11. north

    north Member

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    Absolutely. Whilst this doesn't affect the actual validity I can see it making gateline conversations easier.
     
  12. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Hmmm that is an angle I hadn't considered. I guess that without an actual station at Metropolitan Junction then the lines are considered to be wholly different?
     
  13. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    In order to claim a valid route is no more than three miles longer, it would surely have to be possible to actually make that journey????
     
  14. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Sure the route needs to exist, but it does not need to be possible to make the journey at that time, and/or on that day.

    For example A Leicester-London Season is still valid between Leicester & Melton Mowbray and Corby & Kettering on a Sunday.
     
  15. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    It is a question of it being possible at all. Here is the point at which a passenger would change trains.
     
  16. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Well I was avoiding the debate as to whether it is possible at all, just that if it is possible then it would be a route that a passenger could take even if all of the route wasn't possible on that particular day (the passenger making their own way, if required, between the points with no service, such as Corby-Melton Mowbray with my example above).

    Another thing that is worth considering is that the routeing data simply has routes, rather than journey opportunities. In some cases the shortest route according to the data is totally impossible in practice.
     
  17. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    You clearly can't change trains outside of a station, so I don't class that as a route. You'd have to double back to London Bridge, which may fall under the 3 mile rule (I haven't checked), but I certainly wouldn't want to try arguing on that point.
     
    Last edited: 28 Nov 2013
  18. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    There is no mileage between Cannon Street and Waterloo East as defined by the NRT. However London Bridge to Cannon Street is 0.75 mile, Waterloo East to London Bridge is 1 mile, and railmiles says that Cannon Street to Waterloo East is 1 mile 12 chains.

    So I am sure that the extra distance falls under 3 miles, although I wouldn't like to be the one arguing that at the gateline.
     
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