Ely North Junction upgrade proposals

[Steve Harris]

Has anything been announced yet? Have I missed the announcement or is it on hold due to the coronavirus situation at the moment?

Incidentally, rereading the thread originally started back in 2012 its bloody depressing how long it has dragged on for.

I think the debate about doing something with the junction started before that ?

 

[TheBigD]

I think the debate about doing something with the junction started before that ?

(sarcasm) May 1992?

 

[dk1]

Has anything been announced yet? Have I missed the announcement or is it on hold due to the coronavirus situation at the moment?

Incidentally, rereading the thread originally started back in 2012 its bloody depressing how long it has dragged on for.

It's been talked about several times but nothing concrete yet.

 

[bspahh]

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni.../anglia/ely-area-capacity-enhancement-scheme/ says:

Network Rail has secured £13.1m funding from the Department for Transport and £9.3m funding from the Cambridgeshire and Peterborough Combined Authority, New Anglia Local Enterprise Partnership (LEP) and the Strategic Freight Network to understand the scale of the challenge to increase capacity through Ely and progress early design options for public consultation.

There will be a consultation from 21 September - 1 November 2020. This will from a WWW portal, as well as:

Webchat available from 21 September to 1 October on the following days:

• Mon, Tues, Thurs 10am – 4pm
• Weds 2pm – 8pm

Call our dedicated consultation line 0800 160 1780 from 21 September to 3 October on the following days:

• Mon, Tues, Thurs 2pm – 5pm
• Wed 5pm – 8pm
• Saturday 10am – 1pm

It notes:

What happened to the Ely north junction scheme?
The Ely North junction scheme was a proposal to improve the track layout of the main rail junction to the north of Ely station, however, this work was put on hold following the Hendy review in 2016.

This has given us the opportunity to review the wider capacity constraints around Ely which also need to be considered in order to meet the aspirations to run more rail services.

By taking a wider view of the area and what needs to be upgraded, the Ely area capacity enhancement programme provides the opportunity to deliver more capacity benefits than the original Ely north junction programme on its own.

 

[cle]

Good news. Every conversation about growth - be it freight, EWR, Cambridge itself, Soham...Norwich-Liverpool - they all come back to Ely.

I found this too: https://cambridgeshirepeterborough-...ons/EIR02-Response-Attach-3-EACE-Redacted.pdf

 

[Meerkat]

That’s a shedload of cash just to investigate the size of the problem!

 

[Bald Rick]

That’s a shedload of cash just to investigate the size of the problem!

Consultation and prep for Orders under the Transport and Works Act cost a lot of money.

 

[whittlesfordok]

Will cost .5 billion to build my best guess

 

[Meerkat]

Consultation and prep for Orders under the Transport and Works Act cost a lot of money.

True, a consultants dream. But this isn’t even for that, it isn’t even picking options is it?

 

[Tobbes]

Is there a preferred option at Ely yet?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Lets have another review. Crazy

 

[InOban]

On the other hand, that kind of money does suggest some degree of commitment.

 

[Tobbes]

On the other hand, that kind of money does suggest some degree of commitment.

Exactly. @Bald Rick , what will this amount of cash deliver?

 

[David Goddard]

What are we expecting the final outcome to include?
-Reinstatement of original (pre 1992) layout with double junctions to enable parallel moves
-Doubling between Littleport and Downham Market?
-Freight loops?

 

[lancastrian]

What are we expecting the final outcome to include?
-Reinstatement of original (pre 1992) layout with double junctions to enable parallel moves
-Doubling between Littleport and Downham Market?
-Freight loops?

It sounds like a remake of "Back to the Future". I just wish that all the money wasted with these 'consultations' and 'reviews' were actually used to build something, I am sure that most of what we talk about here would have already been funded and finished by now.

 

[Bald Rick]

True, a consultants dream. But this isn’t even for that, it isn’t even picking options is it?

Is there a preferred option at Ely yet?

They’re can’t be a preferred option for a scheme like this until you have done a public consultation. But you can once that has been done and properly considered.

Lets have another review. Crazy

It’s not another review. It is scheme development.

Exactly. @Bald Rick , what will this amount of cash deliver?

I don’t know. But at an educated guess, I would imagine the consultation, numerous surveys including geotechnical (the ground isn’t good there, as Cambridgeshire found out to their immense cost) the outline design that results from both, all the necessary reports that need doing before a consents application including the Environmental Impact Assessment, ecological and traffic surveys, land referencing; detailed estimates, schedules and risk assessments; timetable modelling, and possibly initial procurement stages for the main contracts, and a bit of land purchase if that can be done by negotiation rather than compulsion.

Be under no illusion, this is potentially a big job.

Reinstatement of original (pre 1992) layout with double junctions to enable parallel moves

I do hope not. Parallel moves, yes, but not the old layout.

It sounds like a remake of "Back to the Future". I just wish that all the money wasted with these 'consultations' and 'reviews' were actually used to build something, I am sure that most of what we talk about here would have already been funded and finished by now.

Why is consultation wasted money? It’s required by law for this sort of scheme. Unless you’re happy to live in a world where a company can knock on your door one day and say “hello, we’re here to fence off your garden so we can build a railway through it” (for the avoidance of doubt, I have no idea of the land take requirements for Ely).

 

[Tobbes]

I don’t know. But at an educated guess, I would imagine the consultation, numerous surveys including geotechnical (the ground isn’t good there, as Cambridgeshire found out to their immense cost) the outline design that results from both, all the necessary reports that need doing before a consents application including the Environmental Impact Assessment, ecological and traffic surveys, land referencing; detailed estimates, schedules and risk assessments; timetable modelling, and possibly initial procurement stages for the main contracts, and a bit of land purchase if that can be done by negotiation rather than compulsion.

Be under no illusion, this is potentially a big job.

Good, this is real progress. But forgive me, if not a 'preferred option' in the strict post public consultation phase, NR presumably have identified a number of options on which to consult? If so, are these public?

Why is consultation wasted money? It’s required by law for this sort of scheme. Unless you’re happy to live in a world where a company can knock on your door one day and say “hello, we’re here to fence off your garden so we can build a railway through it” (for the avoidance of doubt, I have no idea of the land take requirements for Ely).

Quite, everyone in the 'sod it, send in the bulldozers' brigade may take a different view if it were their rights and interests being riden roughshod over - this isn't China, and I am grateful for that fact.

 

[Bald Rick]

Good, this is real progress. But forgive me, if not a 'preferred option' in the strict post public consultation phase, NR presumably have identified a number of options on which to consult? If so, are these public?

That’s surely the purpose of the consultation, ie to make them public. Plenty of options, see the business case linked upthread (no drawings though).

 

[Dr Hoo]

Why is consultation wasted money? It’s required by law for this sort of scheme. Unless you’re happy to live in a world where a company can knock on your door one day and say “hello, we’re here to fence off your garden so we can build a railway through it” (for the avoidance of doubt, I have no idea of the land take requirements for Ely).

Precisely, Bald Rick. I must be very circumspect but I was involved in a scheme that involved potential compulsory land take back in BR's day. Basically a pair of land referencers turned up at a house occupied for decades by a very elderly couple and essentially said "were going to be building a railway through your living room". The elderly couple both died within a few weeks. Awful time.

(The project didn't go ahead.)

 

[lancastrian]

Why is consultation wasted money? It’s required by law for this sort of scheme. Unless you’re happy to live in a world where a company can knock on your door one day and say “hello, we’re here to fence off your garden so we can build a railway through it” (for the avoidance of doubt, I have no idea of the land take requirements for Ely).

Perhaps I should have been a little clearer in what I was saying. I have no objection to a consultation at the start of any planning being done to improve our Rail System. All I was trying to say is as I have been watching and reading about many planned improvements, it seems that after the first consultation , there has to be at least 4 or 5 more before anything gets done. It is all these extra consultations that to me are wasted money.

As for you comment concerning people knocking on my door say that we are building a railway through your garden, they already do this, it is called 'Compulsory Purchase', as one poor bloke living in a house over 400 years old discovered when it was decided that he was in the way of HS2. I am for proper planning consultations, just not more than one.

Stands back and waits to be shot down again. I know I am not an expert on these matters but I do worry about all the money that is wasted on all these studies, consultations, reviews and the like.

 

[Ianno87]

As for you comment concerning people knocking on my door say that we are building a railway through your garden, they already do this, it is called 'Compulsory Purchase', as one poor bloke living in a house over 400 years old discovered when it was decided that he was in the way of HS2. I am for proper planning consultations, just not more than one.

"It was decided"? That would have been in a consultation!

 

[Bald Rick]

There have to be at least two consultations - one to offer options, and the second to explain what has been decided as a result of the first. Sometimes more if the plan is changed (usually as a result fo the previous consultation). I can’t think of any national rail scheme that has had more than 3.

And consultation is only required, usually, when the work is going to be outside the existing land ownership.

 

[Legolash2o]

Given a large amount of money I'd probably put a diveunder at Ely Dock Jn. I'd then also lower all the tracks at the B1382 (Ely Road) so that the roads go over the tracks (removing the crossings).

I think I'd probably remove the curve and do a similar thing as Latchmere Jn. Where a new track from the EA1560 (Peterborough line) goes south to connect to each of the two lines. The one attaching to Norwich line possible going underground.

 

[David Goddard]

It would have to be flyovers rather than diveunders at Ely because of the location of all infrastructure so near to the river Ouse and the level of the water table. One at Dock Junction would certainly unlock capacity and is easily doable within current railway land, but doing similar at Adelaide crossings may be overkill and the land take needed would be very tricky.

The vast majority of traffic through Ely is North-South so I don't think anything radical is needed to replace the West Curve, although redoubling would improve holding ability.

 

[30907]

It would have to be flyovers rather than diveunders at Ely because of the location of all infrastructure so near to the river Ouse and the level of the water table. One at Dock Junction would certainly unlock capacity and is easily doable within current railway land, but doing similar at Adelaide crossings may be overkill and the land take needed would be very tricky.

The vast majority of traffic through Ely is North-South so I don't think anything radical is needed to replace the West Curve, although redoubling would improve holding ability.

The problem with a flyover at Dock Jn is that you are bringing the Haughley line traffic onto the down side of the layout, next to the station building and the city; as it is mainly freight, this isn't ideal. A flyover between the station and North Jn would be better but almost certainly would raise objections on aesthetic and environmental grounds. One from south of North Junction to north of Queen Adelaide would be best operationally , but longer and very intrusive for the inhabitants of QA.

 

[edwin_m]

One from south of North Junction to north of Queen Adelaide would be best operationally , but longer and very intrusive for the inhabitants of QA.

It would probably also mean the road or the other two diverging railways couldn't be elevated unless something was elevated twice as far, therefore preventing elimination of two of the three level crossings.

 

[Meerkat]

Is the West curve essential?
i was thinking of closing it, with the Peterborough line going through its road bridge (or replacement in same place) cutting the corner off, with a junction for King’s Lynn north of the road.
This would leave only one level crossing, and need no high level construction.

 

[Ianno87]

Is the West curve essential?
i was thinking of closing it, with the Peterborough line going through its road bridge (or replacement in same place) cutting the corner off, with a junction for King’s Lynn north of the road.
This would leave only one level crossing, and need no high level construction.

Problem with that would be forcing the Peterborough line through the middle of Roswell Pits Nature Reserve.

 

[Meerkat]

Problem with that would be forcing the Peterborough line through the middle of Roswell Pits Nature Reserve.

Not right through the middle, and I would swap it for land the curve is currently on.

 

[GB]

The curve is used for freight to and from Kings Lynn and Norwich...without it trains would have to run round at Ely eating up capacity.