• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Ely North Junction upgrade proposals

Status
Not open for further replies.

DHB1950

Member
Joined
22 Sep 2020
Messages
10
Location
Bedford
Only incidentally about changes to the layout at Ely, but recently there was an item about it on BBC Look East which showed some (presumably stock) footage of the junctions. The first sequence made me do a double take, pause it on my Hard Disc Recorder and watch it frame by frame, and it clearly showed a 2-car DMU (no pan, but a well for one) arriving from the Norwich or Kings Lynn lines, with a rounded front and windows with top ventilators so non-air conditioned. As far as I could see this could only have been a Class 165 Networker. It looked as though the wires were already up so presumably a Norwich service continuing to Peterborough after reversing at Ely but livery could have been pre-privatisation. Some sort of emergency rolling stock loan?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,771
it'll have been a 365 and a bad camera angle meaning you couldn't clearly see the other two carriages and the pantograph, surely?
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
8,027
Location
SE London

That sounds pretty good news. On a quick read-through, they aren't looking only at those dreaded level crossings - it's the entire line between Cambridge and Kings Lynn/Peterborough. And there's a specific target capacity - 10tph each direction through Ely (with actual service patterns to be decided when the time comes). That seems to me a reasonably generous target: It would for example, allow 2tph to Kings Lynn, 3tph to Peterborough, 3tph to Norwich and 2tph freight. I can't see there being demand for more than that within the next 20 years or so.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
That sounds pretty good news. On a quick read-through, they aren't looking only at those dreaded level crossings - it's the entire line between Cambridge and Kings Lynn/Peterborough. And there's a specific target capacity - 10tph each direction through Ely (with actual service patterns to be decided when the time comes). That seems to me a reasonably generous target: It would for example, allow 2tph to Kings Lynn, 3tph to Peterborough, 3tph to Norwich and 2tph freight. I can't see there being demand for more than that within the next 20 years or so.

Swap a Norwich for a freight and you’re there.
 

MarkRedon

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2015
Messages
292
Two direct Wisbech - Cambridge per hour? Hoped for from 2028? (The BCR forecasts suggest that a direct service, rather than a March shuttle, gives the best overall results for a Wisbech line.)
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
Two direct Wisbech - Cambridge per hour? Hoped for from 2028? (The BCR forecasts suggest that a direct service, rather than a March shuttle, gives the best overall results for a Wisbech line.)

The business case suggests that a direct service from March to Cambridge gives the best overall result, but understandably doesn’t advertise the fact.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
4,008
The decarbonizing plans which include wires from Ely to Peterborough and to Norwich do imply that, electrical capacity/upgrades permitting, growth would more likely be through longer electric stock at the same frequencies. See Castlefield!

And likely quicker journeys may allow better stock utilization - but then pathing comes back into play. Where to send these trains, if not via Ely! Cambridge to Ipswich can be upped at least, without impacting Ely or the dreaded single Stansted tunnel.

If EWR did come to life, I'd expect any services beyond Cambridge to be mergers with existing ones - such as Ipswich and Norwich.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,909
That sounds pretty good news. On a quick read-through, they aren't looking only at those dreaded level crossings - it's the entire line between Cambridge and Kings Lynn/Peterborough. And there's a specific target capacity - 10tph each direction through Ely (with actual service patterns to be decided when the time comes). That seems to me a reasonably generous target: It would for example, allow 2tph to Kings Lynn, 3tph to Peterborough, 3tph to Norwich and 2tph freight. I can't see there being demand for more than that within the next 20 years or so.

Swap a Norwich for a freight and you’re there.

I think EWR could mean 3tph to Norwich. As for Peterborough you are virtually there today (pre COVID) at 2½tph. Kings Lynn is 2tph in some off peak hours already. To me it just doesn't seem ambitious enough. 3tph for Freight may well be needed but not I would say at the expense of the Norwich.

The decarbonizing plans which include wires from Ely to Peterborough and to Norwich do imply that, electrical capacity/upgrades permitting, growth would more likely be through longer electric stock at the same frequencies. See Castlefield!

And likely quicker journeys may allow better stock utilization - but then pathing comes back into play. Where to send these trains, if not via Ely! Cambridge to Ipswich can be upped at least, without impacting Ely or the dreaded single Stansted tunnel.

If EWR did come to life, I'd expect any services beyond Cambridge to be mergers with existing ones - such as Ipswich and Norwich.

Still got to solve Cambridge (Coldham Lane Jn) to Chippenham Jn via Newmarket single Line.
 
Last edited:

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,420
Is 2tph freight enough considering this is being planned for the long term which hopefully includes an aspiration to get more from Felixstowe going cross country rather than through London?
 

arb

Member
Joined
31 Oct 2010
Messages
411
In this 10tph, do the trains reversing at Ely (i.e. East Midlands from Norwich to Peterborough and beyond) count as 1 train or 2? i.e. is it 10tph calling at/passing through the station? Or 10tph through Ely North Junction? Similarly how is freight using the West Curve counted?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
Is 2tph freight enough considering this is being planned for the long term which hopefully includes an aspiration to get more from Felixstowe going cross country rather than through London?

It’s 3 as said upthread. It’s 2tph for freight now, and the Ely project is for extra freight...
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,420
It’s 3 as said upthread. It’s 2tph for freight now, and the Ely project is for extra freight...
Ok.....is 3 enough? (I have no idea how many go Felixstowe to Midlands/north that could go cross country.)
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
Ok.....is 3 enough? (I have no idea how many go Felixstowe to Midlands/north that could go cross country.)

Should be for the foreseeable. In any event quite a lot of the freight through Ely isn’t boxes, but aggregates. Particularly on Friday & Saturday nights with all the ballast coming out of Whitemoor.
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
1,991
Half page feature in this month's Modern Railway regarding the Ely area capacity enhancement (EACE).

The main points...

Increase in capacity for 10 tph through Ely
Removal of speed restrictions over the two River Ouse bridges
Remodelling of the layout at Ely
Modifying platforms at Ely
Remodelling Ely North Junction
Upgrading signalling
Upgrading or closing 126 level crossings

Completed by 2031.

Whether it has been omitted or is not included in the scheme, there is no mention of doubling Ely to Soham.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
4,008
Is 10tph on top of today, or 10tph (each way) total?

If freight are two and each way, that doesn't enable too much growth (do reversers from Norwich count twice?) - that leaves 6tph.
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
1,991
Is 10tph on top of today, or 10tph (each way) total?

If freight are two and each way, that doesn't enable too much growth (do reversers from Norwich count twice?) - that leaves 6tph.

I'd imagine 10tph to be...

2 x Norwich
2 x Kings Lynn*
3 x Peterborough**
3 x Freight (2 x class 4 and 1 x class 6?)

That doesn't leave any room for the proposed hourly Cambridge to Wisbech service though.

* Kings Lynn would only be hourly when the sand trains run to/from Middleton Towers, currently up to 3 round trips a day.

** Stansted-Birmingham, Norwich-Nottingham, and Ipswich--Peterborough.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
4,008
Yep that looks about right. It's a shame such a big project couldn't uplift to say 12tph for a future scenario and demand (EWR being separate to existing services, or Cambridge to ECML, or even Kings X - Norwich - if the routes are all wired as those decarbonization plans implied).

Could additional trains terminate from the south, on top of the 10tph?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
Yep that looks about right. It's a shame such a big project couldn't uplift to say 12tph for a future scenario and demand (EWR being separate to existing services, or Cambridge to ECML, or even Kings X - Norwich - if the routes are all wired as those decarbonization plans implied).

Could additional trains terminate from the south, on top of the 10tph?

This is the cheap as chips lower output option of the project. The other options were a lot more £££
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,909
I'd imagine 10tph to be...

2 x Norwich
2 x Kings Lynn*
3 x Peterborough**
3 x Freight (2 x class 4 and 1 x class 6?)

That doesn't leave any room for the proposed hourly Cambridge to Wisbech service though.

* Kings Lynn would only be hourly when the sand trains run to/from Middleton Towers, currently up to 3 round trips a day.

** Stansted-Birmingham, Norwich-Nottingham, and Ipswich--Peterborough.

And feels very short sighted to me. I hope passive provision is included for easy upgrades in future particularly but not exclusively East West Rail.
 

Tio Terry

Member
Joined
2 May 2014
Messages
1,178
Location
Spain
It's several years ago, before I retired, but we were trying to get an extra 14 paths for freight between Felixstowe and the West Midlands per day. Not sure if this will manage that.
 

bspahh

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2017
Messages
1,727
And feels very short sighted to me. I hope passive provision is included for easy upgrades in future particularly but not exclusively East West Rail.
I think its meant to make sure that other projects that take extra paths though Ely North get to share the bill for this upgrade.

There was a study that suggested that a direct Cambridge-Wisbech service gave the best BCR. Would that be the case if it also had to pay for a share of the upgrades at Ely North?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
There was a study that suggested that a direct Cambridge-Wisbech service gave the best BCR. Would that be the case if it also had to pay for a share of the upgrades at Ely North?

Nope. That study neatly avoided saying that 90% of the benefits of a Wisbech - Cambridge service apply between March and Cambridge. Ie you could get 90% of the benefits of the Wisbech reopening without spending a penny on building a line to Wisbech.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
4,008
Seeing the limitations on tph, I can't see how Wisbech can feature here - or beat out other services. They would probably be very short, and diesel.

Assuming the wires can take it, and other wires follow - if paths are finite for the foreseeable future, then train length is the main method of growth. So the services like Norwich-Nottingham/Stansted would have to be longer. Or splitting plays more of a future role, which is undesirable.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
Seeing the limitations on tph, I can't see how Wisbech can feature here - or beat out other services. They would probably be very short, and diesel.
If March-Ely is wired, battery bi-mode is probably possible so not necessarily diesel, but still I agree with the doubt Wisbech would be more profitable than other possible routes. If it happens, it will be social or political reasons and could involve splitting from something heading to Cambridge after a full recast. Years away.
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Regarding Wisbech, have any investigations been done to see if it would be worthwhile having a Cambridge - Lincoln via Wisbech and Spalding service?

Also, do I remember right that some of the trackbed between Wisbech and Spalding has been severed by a large building for house guests of Lizzie Windsor?
 

stuu

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2011
Messages
2,729
Regarding Wisbech, have any investigations been done to see if it would be worthwhile having a Cambridge - Lincoln via Wisbech and Spalding service?

Also, do I remember right that some of the trackbed between Wisbech and Spalding has been severed by a large building for house guests of Lizzie Windsor?
Wisbech was never linked to Spalding by rail, the line from March headed towards Kings Lynn
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
Regarding Wisbech, have any investigations been done to see if it would be worthwhile having a Cambridge - Lincoln via Wisbech and Spalding service?

Also, do I remember right that some of the trackbed between Wisbech and Spalding has been severed by a large building for house guests of Lizzie Windsor?
As stuu says, there was never a railway from Wisbech to Spalding - it went on East towards Lynn. You could build a couple of miles from scratch through the West side of Wisbech, pick up the old MGN to Murrow and then the GN&GE to Spalding, but it would be an awful dog-leg - though it would save disturbing said house guests :)
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
Also, do I remember right that some of the trackbed between Wisbech and Spalding has been severed by a large building for house guests of Lizzie Windsor?
It's on the edge of March, on the northern part of the former marshalling yard. It blocks the former route towards Spalding but the one to Wisbech diverges further south and misses it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top