EMR - calculating delay repay for lower amount

[ficedula]

Travelled from Nottingham -> Grantham on Thursday. Originally intended to get the 20:34 Norwich train, but that was running late. The next train (and last of the day!) was the 20:51 to Boston. I asked the guard on on the Boston train if he knew whether his train would be leaving before the delayed Norwich; he checked with the dispatchers on the platform who said the Norwich would be leaving first, so get that one.

Norwich train turned up at ~20:45 (I believe it was actually a replacement train, the original having now been cancelled), OK, great, get on that train ... then the Boston train leaves first. Oh well. Norwich train follows a few minutes later, runs fairly slowly due to following the Boston train which is stopping frequently, then eventually gets into Grantham 21:38. Since the Norwich was originally due in at 21:07 that's a 31 minute delay - only just, but still!

I file for a 30 minute delay, comes back approved for 15 minutes. Appeal, specifically pointing out that while I could have taken the Boston train which would have been a < 30 minute delay, EMR staff were advising to get on the Norwich train as that would leave first - even though it ultimately didn't. Appeal has just come back as rejected, saying only "We have reviewed your claim and can confirm that the compensation paid has been correctly calculated." No details about what they think I should have done differently, or if they think the train didn't get in that late (Realtimetrains has it down running >30 minutes late, FWIW), or why exactly my claim isn't valid.

The amount in question is pretty small but I'm kind of annoyed on principle ... if I'd travelled on a ticket that cost a couple of quid less than the correct fare I'm assuming EMR wouldn't be especially happy, and their lack of explanation isn't especially great either.

That said my annoyance level is mild enough I don't think I can be bothered to file in small claims court over an amount < £5. Unless they keep doing it on future claims, I suppose. But I'm certainly up for chasing them about it until they give me a proper explanation for why they disagree about the amount of delay. Has anybody else had to challenge EMR beyond the initial appeal before? If so, what's the best option - customer services complaint? Any particular avenue for contacting them that's known to get a decent response?

 

[WesternLancer]

Travelled from Nottingham -> Grantham on Thursday. Originally intended to get the 20:34 Norwich train, but that was running late. The next train (and last of the day!) was the 20:51 to Boston. I asked the guard on on the Boston train if he knew whether his train would be leaving before the delayed Norwich; he checked with the dispatchers on the platform who said the Norwich would be leaving first, so get that one.

Norwich train turned up at ~20:45 (I believe it was actually a replacement train, the original having now been cancelled), OK, great, get on that train ... then the Boston train leaves first. Oh well. Norwich train follows a few minutes later, runs fairly slowly due to following the Boston train which is stopping frequently, then eventually gets into Grantham 21:38. Since the Norwich was originally due in at 21:07 that's a 31 minute delay - only just, but still!

I file for a 30 minute delay, comes back approved for 15 minutes. Appeal, specifically pointing out that while I could have taken the Boston train which would have been a < 30 minute delay, EMR staff were advising to get on the Norwich train as that would leave first - even though it ultimately didn't. Appeal has just come back as rejected, saying only "We have reviewed your claim and can confirm that the compensation paid has been correctly calculated." No details about what they think I should have done differently, or if they think the train didn't get in that late (Realtimetrains has it down running >30 minutes late, FWIW), or why exactly my claim isn't valid.

The amount in question is pretty small but I'm kind of annoyed on principle ... if I'd travelled on a ticket that cost a couple of quid less than the correct fare I'm assuming EMR wouldn't be especially happy, and their lack of explanation isn't especially great either.

That said my annoyance level is mild enough I don't think I can be bothered to file in small claims court over an amount < £5. Unless they keep doing it on future claims, I suppose. But I'm certainly up for chasing them about it until they give me a proper explanation for why they disagree about the amount of delay. Has anybody else had to challenge EMR beyond the initial appeal before? If so, what's the best option - customer services complaint? Any particular avenue for contacting them that's known to get a decent response?

I've not had to challenge them on second level as you ask, but I have found their customer services generally good - so try going back to them or ringing even, I think it is still 24 hours, try doing that lat at night when quiet. Not worth small claims, but worth asking again IMHO.

 

[robbeech]

Unfortunately this type of behaviour and response is spiralling out of control at many TOCs. The regulation doesn't exist so this won't improve unless enough passengers push them hard enough. I recommend contacting them and explaining again from the very start exactly what you did. If both trains were sat waiting to leave and the train you caught was BOOKED to leave first then it would be unacceptable to expect a passenger to get on the other on on the off chance it might leave first. EMR are (perhaps unintentionally due to incompetence) trying it on. I would try once more to explain your journey and your delay and point out that if they're unable to accept your delay then they should supply you with a deadlock letter so you can escalte this to the Ombudsman.

 

[WesternLancer]

I've just submitted a simple EMR delay repay claim for a low value sum to test their processes. I noted that the online form was better than the SET one I did recently in that it allowed you to input more useful details (but also required annoying things like ticket reference numbers as well as an upload of the ticket image - where the ticket numbers are printed anyway...). It still didn't permit any ability to enter explanatory text, so anything 'subtle' like the OP's case could not be explained, so I suggest that inevitably means appeals are required for such things as a matter of course. My claim is simple journey A-B, late train, no change, so that was unnecessary in my case.

 

[robbeech]

I've just submitted a simple EMR delay repay claim for a low value sum to test their processes. I noted that the online form was better than the SET one I did recently in that it allowed you to input more useful details (but also required annoying things like ticket reference numbers as well as an upload of the ticket image - where the ticket numbers are printed anyway...). It still didn't permit any ability to enter explanatory text, so anything 'subtle' like the OP's case could not be explained, so I suggest that inevitably means appeals are required for such things as a matter of course. My claim is simple journey A-B, late train, no change, so that was unnecessary in my case.

My point on this matter is why an appeal should be necessary? Surely the customer friendly way to handle this is to go through the automated process (benefits the passenger due to high turnaround speed, and benefits the TOC due to low interaction with humans who just will keep insisting on being paid) and either accept and pay out the amount the passenger has claimed for or refer to manual checking by a human, the human would then look at the details and pay out where necessary or ask questions if required (asking further questions requires a response rather than an appeal). Of course, sadly, the TOCs have pretty much all opted for the accept or reject and hope they don't bother to appeal approach. (No benefits to the passenger but notable benefits for the operator as it can save them tens of thousands of pounds in staff wages and hundreds of thousands in compensation pay outs).

I suspect your simple A to B delayed train will be accepted by the automated part of the system so should only take a few days, there are ongoing "tests" with many operators and the results are for the most part appalling, one has to wonder what the regulators are gaining from this.

 

[WesternLancer]

My point on this matter is why an appeal should be necessary? Surely the customer friendly way to handle this is to go through the automated process (benefits the passenger due to high turnaround speed, and benefits the TOC due to low interaction with humans who just will keep insisting on being paid) and either accept and pay out the amount the passenger has claimed for or refer to manual checking by a human, the human would then look at the details and pay out where necessary or ask questions if required (asking further questions requires a response rather than an appeal). Of course, sadly, the TOCs have pretty much all opted for the accept or reject and hope they don't bother to appeal approach. (No benefits to the passenger but notable benefits for the operator as it can save them tens of thousands of pounds in staff wages and hundreds of thousands in compensation pay outs).

I suspect your simple A to B delayed train will be accepted by the automated part of the system so should only take a few days, there are ongoing "tests" with many operators and the results are for the most part appalling, one has to wonder what the regulators are gaining from this.

Fully agree with your points

 

[Belperpete]

I think the OP has over-complicated things. He travelled on the Norwich train that he had planned to catch, and arrived 31 minutes late. The other (Boston) train is irrelevant to the delay-repay claim. Personally, I would not have mentioned the Boston train at all, unless EMR raised it. I suspect EMR are only paying for a 15 minute delay because for some reason their records show the Norwich train as delayed less than 30 minutes. If as per the OP, the original train was cancelled and he travelled on a replacement train with revised timings, their records may show the delay based on these timings.

 

[WesternLancer]

I've just submitted a simple EMR delay repay claim for a low value sum to test their processes. I noted that the online form was better than the SET one I did recently in that it allowed you to input more useful details (but also required annoying things like ticket reference numbers as well as an upload of the ticket image - where the ticket numbers are printed anyway...). It still didn't permit any ability to enter explanatory text, so anything 'subtle' like the OP's case could not be explained, so I suggest that inevitably means appeals are required for such things as a matter of course. My claim is simple journey A-B, late train, no change, so that was unnecessary in my case.

FWIW my simple EMR D-R claim was accepted in less than 8 hours yesterday.

 

[ficedula]

I think the OP has over-complicated things. He travelled on the Norwich train that he had planned to catch, and arrived 31 minutes late. The other (Boston) train is irrelevant to the delay-repay claim. Personally, I would not have mentioned the Boston train at all, unless EMR raised it. I suspect EMR are only paying for a 15 minute delay because for some reason their records show the Norwich train as delayed less than 30 minutes. If as per the OP, the original train was cancelled and he travelled on a replacement train with revised timings, their records may show the delay based on these timings.

Well, the EMR form doesn't initially give you the chance to put any extra text in, so my initial claim was just for the Norwich train, 30 minute delay. Once they rejected that (just saying "we think you were only delayed 15 minutes") I appealed, which does give you a free text box to supply extra information. I guess I didn't need to volunteer any info about the Boston train at that point, but since they hadn't provided any info on why they'd rejected the 30 minute delay, it felt reasonable to reiterate (1) the Norwich train was delayed >30 minutes, and (2) Just looking at the records from the day, it might seem like I could have caught an alternative (that would have led to being delayed < 30 minutes), but here's why that wasn't possible.

With perfect hindsight, it might turn out that they didn't care about the Boston train at all and so if I hadn't mentioned it my less-complicated appeal would have gone through fine ... but then, it's just as possible that "you could have caught an alternative" was the reason they failed to approve the claim, and so failing to mention why that wasn't reasonable could just as well have led to a rejected appeal.

Really, the issue is that when they reject a claim or an appeal they haven't given any information why - so it's hard to know what you should have done differently! Provided more information about X? Less than Y? Who knows - there's no way of telling what their grounds for disagreeing with the claim were.

I'll see what Customer Services come back with.

FWIW my simple EMR D-R claim was accepted in less than 8 hours yesterday.

I've had a few other claims with EMR, and their processing times have been very variable for me. Sometimes approved next day, sometimes takes a week or longer.