EMR Class 170 updates

[swt_passenger]

Does anyone know how the TfW 170 vice SN 171 works in terms of exact vehicle numbers, AIUI EMR were supposed to get a certain mix of 2 and 4 car versions, but were they going to be converted to 3 cars after moving?

 

[43102EMR]

Does anyone know how the TfW 170 vice SN 171 works in terms of exact vehicle numbers, AIUI EMR were supposed to get a certain mix of 2 and 4 car versions, but were they going to be converted to 3 cars after moving?

8x 3 car units and 4x 2 car units were what was meant to happen after reconfiguration and conversion of the Southern 171s, so the TfW 170 transfer makes for a like-for-like swap.

 

[swt_passenger]

8x 3 car units and 4x 2 car units were what was meant to happen after reconfiguration and conversion of the Southern 171s, so the TfW 170 transfer makes for a like-for-like swap.

Ok, sounds all sorted then.

…although I just read the DfT emergency recovery agreement and it seems to have a confusing table that suggests only 26 ex 171 vehicles. Hopefully someone knows what it all means (page 180 refers):

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/954295/DfT-Abellio-East-Midlands-Limited-Emergency-Recovery-Measures-Agreement-Sept-2020.pdf

 

[Failed Unit]

Then 158s staying for other services from what is stated in the press, some of these formed into 3 cars as well.

 

[43102EMR]

Then 158s staying for other services from what is stated in the press, some of these formed into 3 cars as well.

I still say this makes no sense IMO, but clearly EMR have some sort of plan if they’re retaining the 158s…

 

[Failed Unit]

I still say this makes no sense IMO, but clearly EMR have some sort of plan if they’re retaining the 158s…

it is odd but gives some flexibility. They are talking about 5 car Liverpool- Nottingham. So a 3 car and a 2 car 158 job done. corridor connections and lots of seats.

I have seen it stated many times EMR like the corridor connections. (Which goes at odds with the mainline stock - but then the 379s are still not available).

They don’t have many options to make 3 car stock for special events. At least the have ways of doing 3, 4, 5 and 6 car formations once the 153s go without losing whole train connectivity.

 

[TheBigD]

8x 3 car units and 4x 2 car units were what was meant to happen after reconfiguration and conversion of the Southern 171s, so the TfW 170 transfer makes for a like-for-like swap.

Not quite...

EMR were due to receive 6 x 3 car and 10 x 2 car ex Southern. So 4 sets/6 vehicles less than originally planned.

 

[43096]

Not quite...

EMR were due to receive 6 x 3 car and 10 x 2 car ex Southern. So 4 sets/6 vehicles less than originally planned.

Perhaps Southern will go back to their original fleet and the 4 Eversholt sets (171201/202/401/402) will be reconfigured back to 170421-424 for transfer to EMR?

 

[43102EMR]

Engine overhauls are totally separate from repaints and internal soft furnishings in the maintenance regime. You cannot make any assumptions based on last refurbishment about the state of the mechanical parts.

If you read what I said properly, I was referring to the lack of attention the fleet has received since…

it is odd but gives some flexibility. They are talking about 5 car Liverpool- Nottingham. So a 3 car and a 2 car 158 job done. corridor connections and lots of seats.

I have seen it stated many times EMR like the corridor connections. (Which goes at odds with the mainline stock - but then the 379s are still not available).

They don’t have many options to make 3 car stock for special events. At least the have ways of doing 3, 4, 5 and 6 car formations once the 153s go without losing whole train connectivity.

Yeah that’s true - a lot more flexible than the 185s, plus they can be used on other regional services if needed. The route is in serious need of replacement stock though.

Not quite...

EMR were due to receive 6 x 3 car and 10 x 2 car ex Southern. So 4 sets/6 vehicles less than originally planned.

Again not quite…

Various sources stated 12 not 16. 8 were to remain with Southern for Eastbourne - Ashford services, the majority being the 4 car units.

 

[Pumbaa]

Ok, sounds all sorted then.

EMR were due 6 x 3 cars, 10 x 2 cars, joining the 5 x 3 cars and 23 x 2 cars. Total regional fleet would then comprise of 99 vehicles.

The TfW solution will leave them short by 4 units/6 vehicles.

 

[TheBigD]

Again not quite…

Various sources stated 12 not 16. 8 were to remain with Southern for Eastbourne - Ashford services, the majority being the 4 car units.

EMR regional were to have 99 x 170 vehicles made up of 11 x 3 car and 33 x 2 car. That was in the PR blurb that EMR themselves put out to stakeholders.
Their proposed timetables need a minimum of 36* units available form the 44. Only having 40 would have meant that they couldn't deliver all their timetable enhancements.
* 2 summer Skegness turns were planned to be doubled up meaning a total of 38 units required every day.

 

[Failed Unit]

Was that before Liverpool stayed. Although the 158s staying actually gives them a better more flexible fleet.

 

[TheBigD]

Was that before Liverpool stayed. Although the 158s staying actually gives them a better more flexible fleet.

Yes.

Liverpool-Nottingham will require 6 diagrams. So 14 units for 12 diagrams if all run as 4 car.

Modern Railways as reported/suggested that 5 car 158s are DfT's preferred option so another 4 units (split to form some 3 cars.

So around 18 x 158s needed if that is the option chosen.

 

[ABB125]

Yes.

Liverpool-Nottingham will require 6 diagrams. So 14 units for 12 diagrams if all run as 4 car.

Modern Railways as reported/suggested that 5 car 158s are DfT's preferred option so another 4 units (split to form some 3 cars.

So around 17/18 158s needed if that is the option chosen.

So the current fleet of 26x2-car class 158s (I think that's the correct number) is more than enough to have 6-car operation on Liverpool to Nottingham. Why faff about with splitting units, when you could just go 6-car instead?

 

[43102EMR]

EMR regional were to have 99 x 170 vehicles made up of 11 x 3 car and 33 x 2 car. That was in the PR blurb that EMR themselves put out to stakeholders.
Their proposed timetables need a minimum of 36* units available form the 44. Only having 40 would have meant that they couldn't deliver all their timetable enhancements.
* 2 summer Skegness turns were planned to be doubled up meaning a total of 38 units required every day.

Please show me the source, would like to see it as I couldn’t see anymore than 12 being transferred mentioned.

 

[TheBigD]

So the current fleet of 26x2-car class 158s (I think that's the correct number) is more than enough to have 6-car operation on Liverpool to Nottingham. Why faff about with splitting units, when you could just go 6-car instead?

Ask the DfT!

I don't know the northern end of the route but maybe platform lengths a limiting factor?

 

[43102EMR]

Ask the DfT!

I don't know the northern end of the route but maybe platform lengths a limiting factor?

Maybe it’s in case of short forms which are common on the Liverpool - Nottingham portion of the route, enables a 3 car unit to run vice a 2 car.

 

[ABB125]

Ask the DfT!

I don't know the northern end of the route but maybe platform lengths a limiting factor?

Possibly, though I'm not familiar with the route either!

Maybe it’s in case of short forms which are common on the Liverpool - Nottingham portion of the route, enables a 3 car unit to run vice a 2 car.

Though if you have 3x2-car, you have even more redundancy.

 

[Failed Unit]

Ask the DfT!

I don't know the northern end of the route but maybe platform lengths a limiting factor?

You could be right. I thought 6 cars had ran before in CT days. Can’t be certain of course. 5 definitely did. The 3 cars as I posted does help in special events. But the the 170s are probably better for Uttoxeter racing, Lincoln Christmas market etc. Although possibly not enough of them.

 

[43102EMR]

Possibly, though I'm not familiar with the route either!

Though if you have 3x2-car, you have even more redundancy.

In terms of number of units, yes but not in terms of passenger capacity. A 3 car 158 would be much better than a 2 car when there’s not enough units for multiple workings…

 

[jonnyfan]

The route between Lime Street and Manchester would limit train lengths, Liv South Parkway, Widnes and Warrington Central can't accommodate 6 car units.
5 cars will fit I believe at them all.

 

[Nym]

So... Retrofit some ASDO then...?

 

[Failed Unit]

The route between Lime Street and Manchester would limit train lengths, Liv South Parkway, Widnes and Warrington Central can't accommodate 6 car units.
5 cars will fit I believe at them all.

I guess 5 cars will probably be enough - more capacity then the other option (6 car 185s) and a lot less grief. I guess if they are still have problems they need to either look at extensions or encourage people onto Northern services. It sounds like that old fashioned conflict of passengers doing short hops versus those wanting to do long distances. Whenever I have done Liverpool to Nottingham, there is always big change of passengers at Manchester and Sheffield (although the people that say on is not insignificant)

 

[py_megapixel]

Deleted. Thought I was in the 6-cars on northern thread

 

[LowLevel]

The route between Lime Street and Manchester would limit train lengths, Liv South Parkway, Widnes and Warrington Central can't accommodate 6 car units.
5 cars will fit I believe at them all.

You can only get 4 on at Widnes I think.

 

[jonnyfan]

So... Retrofit some ASDO then...?

Oh definitely, the Northern 6 car 195s work fine with ASDO on the route. All comes down to money though, as always.

Pay for SDO on 158s or shuffle some carriages around. We shall see what they come up with.

You can only get 4 on at Widnes I think.

Yes you're right, just had a double check.

 

[rjennings]

170517 went back to Tyseley on Saturday in EMR purple (with West Midlands Trains branding).

Saw it also this morning on 1G14 Shrewsbury to Birmingham New Street.

 

[_toommm_]

There’s one having a jaunt down to Norwich today (didn’t catch the number):

Realtime Trains - 5R70 1057 Norwich to Grantham

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 5L10 1412 Grantham to Norwich

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[LowLevel]

There’s one having a jaunt down to Norwich today (didn’t catch the number):

Realtime Trains - 5R70 1057 Norwich to Grantham

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 5L10 1412 Grantham to Norwich

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

170416. Resident at Norwich at the minute for crew training.

 

[_toommm_]

170416. Resident at Norwich at the minute for crew training.

Thanks - wasn’t sure whether it was a day out or something more regular.