EMR Class 170 updates

[Clansman]

Still I don't understand why Scotrail cascaded ~25 of them, I assume it was a DfT directive (someone correct me?).

They won't need them when the HSTs are all in service, and there's no other route that they don't work where they'd be of benefit to cascade to in Scotland. Transport Scotland run ScotRail, not the DfT per se, as transport is mostly devolved to Scotland from Westminster. Transport Scotland opted to negotiate and extend the leases of another 13 that were originally due to go off-lease also, so that pretty much adds flexibility into the fleet that many were concerned would be lost. Though in hindsight there would have been benefit to having one or two more staying (re replace Fife LHCS, more flexibility for Leven etc). Whether this was taken into account is another question.

There are still services which run with 170s and sprinters which could be entirely 170s though.

Remember that a doubled 170 has fewer seats, less acceleration, and less luggage capacity than a treble 158 and 156. If you sub in a 170 and remove a 158 or 156 in its place, you are effectively removing vital peak time capacity at the expense of enhancing off peak capacity by around 30 seats. Definitley not worth it given the highly elastic passenger volumes of the likes of Fife and East Kilbride. 170s will be the mainstay of regional runs from Glasgow/Edinburgh to Perth/Dundee/Arbroath, where they are better suited to complementing IC7 runs by doubling the frequency between these stations as planned.

It makes logistical sense for ScotRail to keep the sprinters over the 170s, as replacing sprinters with 170s would create more issues and solve absolutely none.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss EMR Class 170s

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else please create a new thread (if there isn't one already)

 

[Mariner16]

First training runs for 170416 today.

Eastcroft to Newark Castle complete
Newark Castle to Leicester 5Z05 arrives at 1315
Leicester to Eastcroft 5Z06 departs Leicester 1319 arrives Nottingham 1345

 

[Murray J]

also 170420 is on it's way to crofton as 5Q66.

 

[CICERO55]

Any idea when the 170s will start of the Liverpool to Norwich route?

 

[D365]

Any idea when the 170s will start of the Liverpool to Norwich route?

I'm fairly sure that route will be split before the Class 170s are fully rolled out.

 

[SteveyBee131]

I'm fairly sure that route will be split before the Class 170s are fully rolled out.

I'm not so sure. Whichever operator takes over the North section will have at least some route learning to do. With current social distancing challenges I imagine it would be very tricky to have enough crews competent to run the service before the December timetable change

 

[CICERO55]

Will it be going to XC, Northern or TPE? The latter two weren’t coping with their own train services before lockdown, so I’m hoping either EMR keeps it or it’s goes to XC if not.

 

[D365]

Will it be going to XC, Northern or TPE? The latter two weren’t coping with their own train services before lockdown, so I’m hoping either EMR keeps it or it’s goes to XC if not.

A discussion and poll can be found here.

 

[CICERO55]

A discussion and poll can be found here.

thanks

 

[43055]

I'm not so sure. Whichever operator takes over the North section will have at least some route learning to do. With current social distancing challenges I imagine it would be very tricky to have enough crews competent to run the service before the December timetable change

I think its december 2021 if anything does happen. This is when the big changes to the regional side is meant to happen.

 

[SteveyBee131]

I think its december 2021 if anything does happen. This is when the big changes to the regional side is meant to happen.

That might be more doable, circumstances depending of course!

 

[OTRail]

I think its december 2021 if anything does happen. This is when the big changes to the regional side is meant to happen.

Regardless, by then EMR should have enough 170s in service (5 /4s from Scotrail and the 23 WMR units) to run the Liverpool to Norwich service before the transfer occurs. Route clearance isn’t a problem as they ran that route before back in Central Trains’ days.

 

[Domh245]

Regardless, by then EMR should have enough 170s in service (5 /4s from Scotrail and the 23 WMR units) to run the Liverpool to Norwich service before the transfer occurs. Route clearance isn’t a problem as they ran that route before back in Central Trains’ days.

I wouldn't be so sure - that's not the full complement of 170s that they're after to run the reduced local services network, so they'll still be using 15x at that point (obviously). However, it makes more sense to put the 170s where they will be working for the next umpteen years and keep the 158s on the Liverpool-Norwich (or Liverpool-Nottingham) until they figure out what's happening with it. And that's before any considerations about relative capacity of the units/lack of gangway, etc

 

[Pippy1505]

Any idea when the 170s will start of the Liverpool to Norwich route?

170s will not be planned to operate on the Liverpool route these services will remain class 158 operated

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

170s will not be planned to operate on the Liverpool route these services will remain class 158 operated

That’s false. EMR Regional fleet will eventually be solely Turbostar.

 

[Prestige15]

170s will not be planned to operate on the Liverpool route these services will remain class 158 operated

I highly doubt it, EMR have said a number of times that the whole regional service will be 170's operation, I expect the 158 will be the last to be replaced probably around the same time as the Nor-Liv splits

 

[Scott1]

I highly doubt it, EMR have said a number of times that the whole regional service will be 170's operation, I expect the 158 will be the last to be replaced probably around the same time as the Nor-Liv splits

They have said by 2022, but the Nor-Liv route is not currently part of this because of the plan by DfT to transfer part of this route out. Until a decision has been made it will remain 158. That said they may still see the odd one in the same way that whilst 158s should be used when their are stock shortages any 15x units will be sent.

 

[Prestige15]

They have said by 2022, but the Nor-Liv route is not currently part of this because of the plan by DfT to transfer part of this route out. Until a decision has been made it will remain 158. That said they may still see the odd one in the same way that whilst 158s should be used when their are stock shortages any 15x units will be sent.

Right, I understand

 

[TrainTube]

What is the first route these units will be on and when roughly will the first be in service now that Covid is starting to clear up?

 

[cactustwirly]

What is the first route these units will be on and when roughly will the first be in service now that Covid is starting to clear up?

The original plan was the robin hood line AFAIK

 

[Mariner16]

Still is the Robin Hood Line in either October or November

 

[WesternLancer]

I seem to recall the reason for RH Line intro given previously were perfectly sensible. Shame they are not going on Newark - Matlock which I think would have been nice - large windows being good for scenery on the Matlock route.

 

[Mugby]

When the Robin Hood Line first opened (re-opened) one of the conditions stipulated for Nottinghamshire County Council's financial support was that services should be operated by units not less than three cars in formation.

This condition has somehow fallen into abeyance in recent times but perhaps there had been a reminder that it wasn't being adhered to.

 

[WesternLancer]

When the Robin Hood Line first opened (re-opened) one of the conditions stipulated for Nottinghamshire County Council's financial support was that services should be operated by units not less than three cars in formation.

This condition has somehow fallen into abeyance in recent times but perhaps there had been a reminder that it wasn't being adhered to.

was it? That's interesting little fact - hard to imagine that BR would have agreed to that, but interesting that they did. Did they have any 3 car units at the time in fact.
I do recall that Mansfield District Council specifically paid to ensure that the platform at Mansfield was long enough to take a London train (I presume an HST 125 would have been the idea at the time). Never used for that of course, even though in the early days of 170s on the MML a 170 operated London service might have been a viable option.

 

[Mugby]

was it? That's interesting little fact - hard to imagine that BR would have agreed to that, but interesting that they did. Did they have any 3 car units at the time in fact.

Nottingham to Mansfield services started only a year before the end of BR. As I recall, the trains were originally 2 car units with a 153 attached and sometimes 3 x 153s. When Central Trains took over, new 170s were introduced.

When the EMR 170s finally enter service on the route, it'll be a return to what was the norm twenty years ago!

 

[WesternLancer]

Nottingham to Mansfield services started only a year before the end of BR. As I recall, the trains were originally 2 car units with a 153 attached and sometimes 3 x 153s. When Central Trains took over, new 170s were introduced.

When the EMR 170s finally enter service on the route, it'll be a return to what was the norm twenty years ago!

Yes. I do recall the previous use of 170s on the route, unsure about stock on the previous BR services even though I used the line from about week one of the services to M'fld Woodhouse (I must have gone for a trip or 2 on the first Newstead only stage too, but not as frequently. 156s maybe?

I can well understand that the County Council specified infrastructure that would handle 3 cars, but did not realise that they would have specified BR (or subsequent TOC) actually ran 3 cars. The planning stages etc did seem to rumble on for years, so well before 1992 when privatization became a Conservative Manifesto commitment.

I certainly recall the county council complaining that as it got closer to and after privatisation the costs started escalating considerably over the original BR prices (this would be for the latter stages). Of course the 1992 pit closure programme (and the public backlash that occured) probably served to make central govt just a bit more sympathetic to funding the increased costs - fortunately.

If only Ivanhoe re-opening had played out the same way.

 

[LowLevel]

The line was initially diagrammed to have class 150s operate on it, most of those at the time were 3 car hybrid sets.

The route has never been solely operated by 3 car trains though as far as I know though all of the platforms accommodate 3 cars. There have always been certain peak trains diagrammed as such however.

 

[py_megapixel]

Are the 170s getting an interior refresh as well? New seat covers for instance?

 

[43055]

Are the 170s getting an interior refresh as well? New seat covers for instance?

I would say it's highly likely that a interior refresh will be on the cards. It would be a bit odd having a uniform purple exterior and then a blue or green inside depending where the 170 has come from.