EMR Class 170 updates

[WesternLancer]

I would say it's highly likely that a interior refresh will be on the cards. It would be a bit odd having a uniform purple exterior and then a blue or green inside depending where the 170 has come from.

Are any 170s coming over from XC? I cant' recall - I was in one the other day - standard of the interior was absolutely grim. Dirty, ingrained dirt, torn fabric on seat covers - plastic panels having been cleaned in the past so often the surface finish had intermittently worn off. Absolute disgrace.

Very poor that by placing the franchise process on hold the DfT then does nothing to carry out vital work on them.

Worst than anything I would ever have expected BR to turn out in daily service (and I'm going back to the 1970s in that assessment).

The idea that people would be expected to pay money to travel in it is shocking.

 

[43055]

Are any 170s coming over from XC? I cant' recall - I was in one the other day - standard of the interior was absolutely grim. Dirty, ingrained dirt, torn fabric on seat covers - plastic panels having been cleaned in the past so often the surface finish had intermittently worn off. Absolute disgrace.

Very poor that by placing the franchise process on hold the DfT then does nothing to carry out vital work on them.

Worst than anything I would ever have expected BR to turn out in daily service (and I'm going back to the 1970s in that assessment).

The idea that people would be expected to pay money to travel in it is shocking.

5 from ScotRail, all of the West Midland fleet but some of the centre coaches are going to XC. I think some southern 171s are due to come as well but I'm not convinced they will materialise (got nothing to replace them) and we will have a mix of 158 and 170 in the end.

 

[WesternLancer]

5 from ScotRail, all of the West Midland fleet but some of the centre coaches are going to XC. I think some southern 171s are due to come as well but I'm not convinced they will materialise (got nothing to replace them) and we will have a mix of 158 and 170 in the end.

Thanks - that all sounds as I recall actually. I agree with you about the Southern 171s (tho it would be very logical to replace them as they are too short for traffic patterns now - well pre covid anyway - meaning not ideal as non gangwayed between sets) - but if things were sensible we would already see procurement for SR DMU replacement sets now would we not (or even more logical, the announcement of electrification for Uckfield and Hastings to Ashford which would solve various issues once and for all).

 

[fgwrich]

Are the 170s getting an interior refresh as well? New seat covers for instance?

They will be receiving a refurbishment, this is currently being drawn up by East Midlands Railway with the contracts due to be awarded fairly soon. They could also chose to continue with East Midlands tradition and carry the refurbishments out internally (as EMT did with most of their fleet).

 

[DannyMich2018]

I cannot help thinking that bringing Class 170s to EMR is not greatest idea-These units are 100mph and are designed for long-distance services-they are not suited to low speed start-stop routes such as Leicester-Lincoln (line speed on Slow lines north of Syston as low as 45mph in places) and Robin Hood Line. It's only Liverpool-Norwich where they are really suited with good line speeds and few stops. Peterborough to Lincoln-Doncaster next with not too many stops but low line speeds. Wide doors at 1/3 and 2/3 will of course help dwell times but still think not best use of these units.

 

[py_megapixel]

It's only Liverpool-Norwich where they are really suited with good line speeds and few stops. Peterborough to Lincoln-Doncaster next with not too many stops but low line speeds. Wide doors at 1/3 and 2/3 will of course help dwell times but still think not best use of these units.

Liverpool-Norwich will soon become Nottingham-Norwich and in any case I think a route that long really needs a proper intercity configuration with end-doors and vestibules

 

[Domh245]

I cannot help thinking that bringing Class 170s to EMR is not greatest idea-These units are 100mph and are designed for long-distance services-they are not suited to low speed start-stop routes such as Leicester-Lincoln (line speed on Slow lines north of Syston as low as 45mph in places) and Robin Hood Line. It's only Liverpool-Norwich where they are really suited with good line speeds and few stops. Peterborough to Lincoln-Doncaster next with not too many stops but low line speeds. Wide doors at 1/3 and 2/3 will of course help dwell times but still think not best use of these units.

The issue is that as unsuitable as the 170s are, there really isn't much other choice! New build is seemingly not an option, and keeping the 15x on is not really viable either given their age and general lack of creature comforts. With any luck they might re-gear the units to better suit the sort of work they'll be doing, which could also then be carried over to Northern's units as well.

 

[LowLevel]

I cannot help thinking that bringing Class 170s to EMR is not greatest idea-These units are 100mph and are designed for long-distance services-they are not suited to low speed start-stop routes such as Leicester-Lincoln (line speed on Slow lines north of Syston as low as 45mph in places) and Robin Hood Line. It's only Liverpool-Norwich where they are really suited with good line speeds and few stops. Peterborough to Lincoln-Doncaster next with not too many stops but low line speeds. Wide doors at 1/3 and 2/3 will of course help dwell times but still think not best use of these units.

Much of Peterborough to Doncaster is sustained 75 mph running where these units will be perfectly at home. It is quite a long jaunt!

 

[Neptune]

Liverpool-Norwich will soon become Nottingham-Norwich and in any case I think a route that long really needs a proper intercity configuration with end-doors and vestibules

170’s are ideal for these kind of regional services.

This thing people have with end door stock on anything over an hour long is bemusing.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Much of Peterborough to Doncaster is sustained 75 mph running where these units will be perfectly at home. It is quite a long jaunt!

Yes it is. As said this route and Liverpool to Norwich ok. It's the slow speed Leicester to Lincoln, Robin Hood Line and Nottingham to Matlock which are very much start to stop services with very little opportunity to go above 60mph much.

 

[bunnahabhain]

170’s are ideal for these kind of regional services.

This thing people have with end door stock on anything over an hour long is bemusing.

Actually 158s are far more suited to that route than anything else available, a three car 158 with lower density seating would be miles better than a 170.

 

[Domh245]

I'm not so sure - you just need to watch an even slightly busy train at Manchester Piccadilly to see that the narrow end doors are really not suitable for the route!

 

[Scott1]

Actually 158s are far more suited to that route than anything else available, a three car 158 with lower density seating would be miles better than a 170.

The doors are far too narrow, try getting bikes, pushchairs or wheelchairs through and it's a pain in the bum.

 

[bunnahabhain]

The doors are far too narrow, try getting bikes, pushchairs or wheelchairs through and it's a pain in the bum.

I've done all of the above and it isn't an issue. Try getting the above three items on a 170 at the same time and not obstruct any doorways.

 

[fgwrich]

Yes it is. As said this route and Liverpool to Norwich ok. It's the slow speed Leicester to Lincoln, Robin Hood Line and Nottingham to Matlock which are very much start to stop services with very little opportunity to go above 60mph much.

Indeed, the 170s are not the fastest units to accelerate. Perhaps there is the potential to re-gear them to something similar to the 172s - Whatever happened to a similar trial?

The doors are far too narrow, try getting bikes, pushchairs or wheelchairs through and it's a pain in the bum.

The door issue was of course one of the reasons why TPE chose the 185s to replace the 158s. The wider 1/3 2/3rds door layout allowing quicker boarding at some of the incredibly busy stations across the TPE network.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I'm not so sure - you just need to watch an even slightly busy train at Manchester Piccadilly to see that the narrow end doors are really not suitable for the route!

Its also the only long distance route on P13/14 at Piccadilly which has a large passenger flow in both directions of the route, the majority of TPE services are either setting down or picking up because they don't go long distance Eastbound from those platforms anymore. The passenger turnover onboard is quite large which contributes to the issue. The narrow end doors are suitable to the route, they just require a longer dwell time at one station en route.

 

[Scott1]

I've done all of the above and it isn't an issue. Try getting the above three items on a 170 at the same time and not obstruct any doorways.

I'll agree to disagree.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I'll agree to disagree.

If you like, but I have to work with them, and I know which I prefer for luggage space.

 

[scotraildriver]

Indeed, the 170s are not the fastest units to accelerate. Perhaps there is the potential to re-gear them to something similar to the 172s - Whatever happened to a similar trial?

Scotrail ran a trial with 2 units fitted with uprated MTU engines. They went like absolute stink but were also very very noisy and reliability wasn't so good, and 2 of them caught fire.

 

[ChrisC]

Indeed, the 170s are not the fastest units to accelerate. Perhaps there is the potential to re-gear them to something similar to the 172s - Whatever happened to a similar trial?

I know that 170’s are not the fastest units to accelerate, especially with frequent station stops, but are they even slower accelerating up gradients. The Robin Hood Line has frequent stops and the single line section of the route, between Bulwell, Hucknall and Newstead is one continuous uphill climb. Slow running northbound trains on this section would cause real timekeeping problems getting through this single line section.

 

[robbeech]

I know that 170’s are not the fastest units to accelerate, especially with frequent station stops, but are they even slower accelerating up gradients. The Robin Hood Line has frequent stops and the single line section of the route, between Bulwell, Hucknall and Newstead is one continuous uphill climb. Slow running northbound trains on this section would cause real timekeeping problems getting through this single line section.

Agreed although I’ve (the train I’m on) never had to wait at that section in the up direction for a down train but have to wait in the down direction for an up train 3 out of 4 times or worse.

 

[Prestige15]

Nottingham to Mansfield services started only a year before the end of BR. As I recall, the trains were originally 2 car units with a 153 attached and sometimes 3 x 153s. When Central Trains took over, new 170s were introduced.

When the EMR 170s finally enter service on the route, it'll be a return to what was the norm twenty years ago!

170 have also been to Crewe, Skegness and Matlock before too, I do remember Midland Mainlines 170's on the London to Matlock service back then aswell, Good times!

They are not really suitable for these sort of service but what better options is there right now? In the end its better than the 153/156's for passengers overall.

 

[hwl]

The narrow end doors are suitable to the route, they just require a longer dwell time at one station en route.

As longer dwell times are not an option for those platforms and in general they need to be shorter on those platforms, they therefore aren't suitable for the route.
It isn't an on average they are fine, it is a simple fail to meet requirement at a key station on route so they fail the suitability requirement.

It isn't just about the passengers on that particular route but all the other who suffer delays because of unsuitable end door stock.

 

[bunnahabhain]

As longer dwell times are not an option for those platforms and in general they need to be shorter on those platforms, they therefore aren't suitable for the route.
It isn't an on average they are fine, it is a simple fail to meet requirement at a key station on route so they fail the suitability requirement.

It isn't just about the passengers on that particular route but all the other who suffer delays because of unsuitable end door stock.

So that's the entire new TPE fleet that isn't suitable then...

 

[OTRail]

Does anyone know when 170418 and 170419 are moving to Crofton?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Does anyone know when 170418 and 170419 are moving to Crofton?

End of August I believe.

 

[3973EXL]

5Q66 1x170

Realtime Trains - 5Q66 1015 Haymarket Depot to Crofton Depot

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[43055]

5Q66 1x170

Realtime Trains - 5Q66 1015 Haymarket Depot to Crofton Depot

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

170419

 

[OTRail]

170420’s now out on driver training runs between Etches Park and Leicester in case it hasn’t been mentioned already.

 

[Geeves]

Lots of talk when Northern took on the 170s on what was stated on here as "unsuitable work" with fears of poor time keeping and overheating. They are running fine, with early arrivals. I really don't think EMR will have any issues.