EMR Class 360's

[Class 170101]

As I said before, it is driver training that is the issue. It doesn’t matter what units turn up, the drivers have to be trained. I’m sure GA will happily release enough 360s for driver training, whenever it can start again. It’s not like they will need the full fleet anytime before the 720s enter service.

One already gone to Northampton for 110mph modifications last week according to twitter.

 

[Mikey C]

Why are they taking them to Northampton, doing the mods, then returning them to Great Anglia, rather than doing the mods when they are no longer needed?

Won't it cause problems for Great Anglia to have original and modified stock running at the same time?

 

[Domh245]

Why are they taking them to Northampton, doing the mods, then returning them to Great Anglia, rather than doing the mods when they are no longer needed?

Won't it cause problems for Great Anglia to have original and modified stock running at the same time?

Because whilst there's a lull in traffic it makes sense to get the units modded so that as soon as they are released from GA/the electrification is signed off for use they can be pressed into service.

The mods are fairly simple and don't affect the operation of the train, why would there be a problem interoperating modded/non-modded stock?

 

[Bald Rick]

Someone also mentioned somewhere on here that 110mph is needed to keep to the paths, 365s are only 100mph and unlike the Desiro family probably aren't upgradeable.

Strictly true, yes, but the time loss for a unit limited to 100 is about half a minute London - Corby. That will be lost in the dwell times.

 

[JonathanH]

OK, so next mad idea: 345s take over Heathrow connect releasing the 5 x 5 car 360/2s, which I'd like to think might be similar enough. Can they be used to do driver training and then some of the Corby trains to release 222s? 5 x 5 car replacing 5 x 4 or 5 car 222s with maintanence cover from the 222s to maxmise the 360/2s in service?

Posted elsewhere that 345s are in no position at the moment to displace class 360/2s.

 

[fgwrich]

Why are they taking them to Northampton, doing the mods, then returning them to Great Anglia, rather than doing the mods when they are no longer needed?

Won't it cause problems for Great Anglia to have original and modified stock running at the same time?

Because whilst there's a lull in traffic it makes sense to get the units modded so that as soon as they are released from GA/the electrification is signed off for use they can be pressed into service.

The mods are fairly simple and don't affect the operation of the train, why would there be a problem interoperating modded/non-modded stock?

Also in part, as Northampton is a Siemens operated TMD. There aren't any Siemens depots on Greater Anglia, as they were ordered to be TOC Maintained than Manufacturer Maintained. I'm sure Siemens could do it at Ilford, but as Northampton has the experience it makes more sense for them to do it "in house".

And as Dom says, it will allow a quicker entry into service when EMR require them. They will still have to be refurbished, but it will be one less thing to worry / take up time for then.

 

[JonathanH]

Also in part, as Northampton is a Siemens operated TMD. There aren't any Siemens depots on Greater Anglia, as they were ordered to be TOC Maintained than Manufacturer Maintained.

Is there a facility at Clacton that is outsourced rather than in house?

 

[Bald Rick]

EMR aren’t taking the lease until later in the summer.

 

[fgwrich]

Is there a facility at Clacton that is outsourced rather than in house?

I believe Clacton has always been a TOC depot since re-opening - according to the 'net, the GA 360s are maintained under contract by Siemens at Ilford, with Clacton being used for the stabling of 321, (+322 as of 2020) and 360s.

 

[Mollman]

Post in MML Electrification thread quoting stakeholder letter which say introduction of electric trains on MML likely to be delayed.

Stakeholder Newsletter just received from EMR

We are writing to update you with the latest information on plans to improve East Midlands Railway services and the final stages of the transformative £1.5 billion Midland Main Line Upgrade. While we have been making good progress with the infrastructure and other preparations, coronavirus has, inevitably, caused a delay.

As you will be aware following discussions since the start of the East Midlands Railway franchise and the public consultation which followed, December 2020 was due to see a significant timetable change.

The December 2020 timetable delivers a fundamental uplift in capacity and frequency for services on the Midland Main Line. It provides the capacity for EMR to operate six (currently five) trains per hour between London St Pancras, the East Midlands and South Yorkshire as well as improving reliability and performance. This timetable change will also see the introduction of electric trains to the EMR franchise, making use of the newly installed overhead electric lines between Bedford and Corby.

EMR Regional services will have benefited too, with new journey opportunities and improved connectivity ahead of a more significant improvement in December 2021.

The impact of coronavirus

The coronavirus pandemic has had a profound impact on businesses and industries across the UK– including the railway. As a result, the benefits to EMR passengers we were due to deliver in December 2020 are now planned for May 2021. Although this may not come as a surprise, we share your disappointment that this is unavoidable. It is due to three principal reasons:

1. The final stages of electrifying the line between Bedford and Corby has been delayed by the impact of social distancing measures. A new method of working had to be developed to enable working on the overhead lines at height and in confined spaces.
2. The requirements of social distancing has also affected the ability to deliver critical training, including driver training.
3. Supply chain issues, complicated by coronavirus, which have affected the whole industry. This has included delays to the cascade of electric units.

We are all immensely disappointed by this delay, but given the unprecedented impact of coronavirus and our commitment to ensure major changes in train services are delivered safely and effectively, we have no choice.

Next steps

The change to May 2021 does pose some challenging questions concerning EMR’s train fleet, particularly the use of High Speed Trains (HSTs). Discussions are already underway and we will update you as soon as possible.

In addition, this also creates challenges for the successful introduction of an improved EMR Regional timetable in December 2021. Work is ongoing to understand the knock-on implications for these long anticipated changes.

In terms of the May 2021 timetable delivery, EMR and Network Rail are working together to develop a formal timetable submission for May 2021 and this will be submitted in late summer. At this point, EMR will also publish results of the public consultation which was completed earlier this year and details of the timetable submission to show the steps and decisions taken in response to feedback from customers and stakeholders.

Completion of the Midland Main Line Upgrade

Network Rail is continuing to progress the Midland Main Line Upgrade and expect to have completed the wire runs between Bedford and Corby in the coming months. This will enable the stretch between Bedford and Corby to be fully tested and commissioned this winter.

Further work was always scheduled to continue into early 2021, this includes at stations, some bridge work and maintenance depots. These items are an important part of the upgrade but not essential to the delivery of the timetable.

Conclusion

We are sure you will share our frustration at this news but hope you can appreciate the unprecedented impact the coronavirus pandemic has had on all of us in recent months. We will continue to work together to improve the rail service and will update you further in the near future.

Yours Sincerely,

Gary Walsh
Route Director, East Midlands
Network Rail Infrastructure Limited

Will Rogers
Managing Director
East Midlands Railway

 

[_toommm_]

I'm not familiar with where the 360s run with Greater Anglia, but will the drivers be allowed to take advantage of the 110mph running, or are they being told to still keep it at 100?

 

[D365]

I'm not familiar with where the 360s run with Greater Anglia, but will the drivers be allowed to take advantage of the 110mph running, or are they being told to still keep it at 100?

I highly doubt that Great Anglia will see 110mph as there won't be 110mph specific diagrams.

 

[Domh245]

Are there even sections on the GEML (and branches) higher than 100mph?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not familiar with where the 360s run with Greater Anglia, but will the drivers be allowed to take advantage of the 110mph running, or are they being told to still keep it at 100?

Are there even sections on the GEML (and branches) higher than 100mph?

There is no part of Anglia that has a linespeed of more than 100mph.

 

[_toommm_]

There is no part of Anglia that has a linespeed of more than 100mph.

Thanks for that, I wasn't sure if there were any areas where they could stretch their new legs.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Just out of idle interest; where will the 360s be able to run at 110 on EMR? St P to Bedford is 100 for electric at moment - what about Glendon - Corby? Presumably Bedford - Wellingborough is 110 or more, but not the newly electrified slow lines.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fast lines Bedford to Kettering.

 

[pompeyfan]

The desiros I work with will limit the driver to 100mph and control the motors accordingly. If 360s are the same it will result in drivers having to pay more attention and control the PBC themselves to prevent accidentally going above 100.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Fast lines Bedford to Kettering.

Thanks for that.

From posts upthread, the increase from 100 to 110 is achieved, in the case of 360s, by changes to the motors rather than re-gearing. Re-gearing to increase maximum speed reduces acceleration rates because the power is unchanged but I'm not sure whether the motor alteration adds to the top speed by extra power and so does not affect the acceleration. I'm just interested; if the acceleration is reduced (and I accept that it might not be), whether the extra 10 mph over one section (which includes the Wellingborough stop) saves more time than the penalty of slower acceleration away from calling points (I make that 5 starts, 6 if St Albans is served).
I accept that, once St P -Bedford becomes 110, the advantage will lie with the higher speed.

 

[Roast Veg]

Fast lines Bedford to Kettering.

Will they do any running on fast lines south of Bedford, once upgraded?

 

[hwl]

Thanks for that.

From posts upthread, the increase from 100 to 110 is achieved, in the case of 360s, by changes to the motors rather than re-gearing. Re-gearing to increase maximum speed reduces acceleration rates because the power is unchanged but I'm not sure whether the motor alteration adds to the top speed by extra power and so does not affect the acceleration. I'm just interested; if the acceleration is reduced (and I accept that it might not be), whether the extra 10 mph over one section (which includes the Wellingborough stop) saves more time than the penalty of slower acceleration away from calling points (I make that 5 starts, 6 if St Albans is served).
I accept that, once St P -Bedford becomes 110, the advantage will lie with the higher speed.

From what I understand it involves strengthening the squirrel cage so the rotor can rotate faster and increase the max rpm as that was the main limitation, hence no change to acceleration to 100mph.

 

[Merle Haggard]

From what I understand it involves strengthening the squirrel cage so the rotor can rotate faster and increase the max rpm as that was the main limitation, hence no change to acceleration to 100mph.

Thank you for that explanation.

However, my earlier post rather over-stated the opportunity for 110 mph running, as it seems the plan is for Corby trains to run slow line from the crossover South of Wellingborough to Glendon and Up trains will have to cross from the Up fast at Bedford, if calling there.

 

[Pumbaa]

Southbound everything crosses at Wellingborough South. Northbound, one crosses at Wellingborough North, and one crosses at Kettering South.

 

[edwin_m]

Will they do any running on fast lines south of Bedford, once upgraded?

EMR doesn't use the Slows south of Bedford except during disruption or engineering access, and I can't see that changing. Anything on the Slows would soon catch up a Thameslink stopper.

 

[Pumbaa]

The desiros I work with will limit the driver to 100mph and control the motors accordingly. If 360s are the same it will result in drivers having to pay more attention and control the PBC themselves to prevent accidentally going above 100.

If I remember correctly, there is a software mod to inhibit the running until the whole fleet is ready and needed. Whole fleet can then be switched on overnight. Saves any potential issues.

The Speedo Change and labels of new maximum running speed will all be updated ahead of then as part of the wider mods though.

 

[Fuzzytop]

I make that 5 starts, 6 if St Albans is served.

Are there plans to serve St Albans with these units? I thought the EMR electrics were planned to be first stop Luton Airport Parkway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there plans to serve St Albans with these units? I thought the EMR electrics were planned to be first stop Luton Airport Parkway.

Not calling there at all, according to the published consultation.

 

[D365]

If I remember correctly, there is a software mod to inhibit the running until the whole fleet is ready and needed. Whole fleet can then be switched on overnight. Saves any potential issues.

The Speedo Change and labels of new maximum running speed will all be updated ahead of then as part of the wider mods though.

That makes sense. Otherwise you end up with a mixed fleet and difficulties when it comes to driver training/operation.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not calling there at all, according to the published consultation.

Thanks for that confirmation, I thought they'd been some suggestion otherwise.

As an aside, and regarding the current situation on GA, London Midland had a mixed fleet of 110 350/1s and 100 350/2s (until the 350/2s were upgraded) and this seem to work fine, including 350/1s coupled to 350/2s on trains timed at 110...

 

[sd0733]

Thanks for that confirmation, I thought they'd been some suggestion otherwise.

As an aside, and regarding the current situation on GA, London Midland had a mixed fleet of 110 350/1s and 100 350/2s (until the 350/2s were upgraded) and this seem to work fine, including 350/1s coupled to 350/2s on trains timed at 110...

The software on a 350/1 and /3 knew there was a 100mph max unit in the consist so limited the whole consist to 100.
When the 350/2s were changed to 110 though the same is done as with the 360s; the mods were done but the unit was left at 100max then when the last ones were done they were all 110 enabled one day all together.