EMR Class 360's

[jfowkes]

Are they being stabled at Kettering/somewhere with EMR after this work, until they come into service/training runs? Or back to GA?

 

[LowLevel]

All Desiros up to the 380s have had Grammar seats, but the city 70x ones have had Fainsas. Hopefully Grammar ones will be used and not the 2+2 Fainsa seating in the 800s.

Since the lease expires August (31st I heard) I expect all to be gone by then. It’s a big shame given no 720s are even close to being in service. I went on one today and I’m mourning their loss already.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were immediately subleased back to GA in the manner of the Scottish 170s. There is no pressing need for them at EMR just yet.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Would seem sensible. Are we expecting when 'normal' times resume that there will be a Retail trolley?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I can't remember if EMR are going to keep first class on the 360s, as 3+2 is being changed to 2+2 in standard, I would have thought so as SWR has it on 450s for medium distance services but GA have removed it for 720 operated services.

Can anyone confirm there will be first class on EMR 360s? I expect this to be non-premium with same style seats as LNR 350s and SWR 450s

 

[James Kevill]

So it seems that 360105 will be staying at Northampton for storage for now.

 

[fgwrich]

So it seems that 360105 will be staying at Northampton for storage for now.

They might as well award the refurbishment contract to Siemens while it's there then.

 

[Roast Veg]

The what?!

The 'Squirrel Cage' is the rotating part of the AC motor.

I didn't know what this referred to either, so I had a quick read of good old wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squirrel-cage_rotor

By adjusting the shape of the bars in the rotor, the speed-torque characteristics of the motor can be changed, to minimize starting current or to maximize low-speed torque, for example.

You learn something new every day.

 

[DB]

The aisle would be huge! The width of a standard 2 + 2 seat is 3-4 inches wider with armrests too compared to a 3 + 2 layout that you can't even get a suitcase through the aisle and 3 people comfortably sat shoulder to shoulder on a 3 + 2 layout normally.
Anyone would be wishing for a class 222 Meridian

Are the seats themselves narrower, or is it just that they have no spacers / armrests between them in 3+2 layout?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Are the seats themselves narrower, or is it just that they have no spacers / armrests between them in 3+2 layout?

I need to look at the manufacturers spec, because they certainly seem/look smaller

 

[James Kevill]

They might as well award the refurbishment contract to Siemens while it's there then.

Ok that's good. It was the very first time in over the years that it appeared on the West Coast Main Line and at Milton Keynes Central and Northampton. And I have the feeling that the other 20 Class 360/1 Desiro units would do the same after when they are replaced by the new Stadler Flirt and Bombardier Aventra trains for Greater Anglia.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are the seats themselves narrower, or is it just that they have no spacers / armrests between them in 3+2 layout?

I need to look at the manufacturers spec, because they certainly seem/look smaller

I did a fairly accurate measurement of 444 (2+2) and 450 (2+3) seats a while back, and as far as I could recall (I‘ve mislaid the exact figures), the tubular steel frames of both type’s seat and back are the same width, but the 444 cushions then overlap their frames slightly, whereas the 450 cushions have no side to side overlap at all, so the width of base and back cushions is about an inch greater in the 444.

Then to the best of my knowledge the 444 uses the same seats in standard as 2+2 350s; the 450 seats are as per the 360 and 350 2+3 style.

The welded steel parts that form the table hinge on a 2+3 seat are completely different to the combined table and armrests fitting on the 2+2 seat, so I don’t think one type of back frame is readily convertible into the other type.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I did a fairly accurate measurement of 444 (2+2) and 450 (2+3) seats a while back, and as far as I could recall (I‘ve mislaid the exact figures), the tubular steel frames of both type’s seat and back are the same width, but the 444 cushions then overlap their frames slightly, whereas the 450 cushions have no side to side overlap at all, so the width of base and back cushions is about an inch greater in the 444.

Then to the best of my knowledge the 444 uses the same seats in standard as 2+2 350s; the 450 seats are as per the 360 and 350 2+3 style.

The welded steel parts that form the table hinge on a 2+3 seat are completely different to the combined table and armrests fitting on the 2+2 seat, so I don’t think one type of back frame is readily convertible into the other type.

The grammer 3000 are 440mm wide in standard spec 450mm in priority and 460mm in first class

 

[Metal_gee_man]

E3000 Factsheet

 

[WesternLancer]

E3000 Factsheet

Must be the pre covid draft of the leaflet!

"permits very dense seating in train compartments"

 

[Bletchleyite]

The grammer 3000 are 440mm wide in standard spec 450mm in priority and 460mm in first class

The priority seats on the 350s and 360s are the same width as the normal ones, so this is clearly just an option. Furthermore the 3+2 ones are the same width too - you can tell this by the interchangeable way in which LNR have used the spare cushions! The only difference is the shape of the backrest (which is different on the 3+2 version) and the lack of armrests and spacing for them.

The overlap under discussion is just because that happens naturally when the cushion gets "squashed" in use. You can see this by there being no such overlap on the 350/3s or indeed refurbished /1s.

 

[Scott1]

First 360 moved today from Ilford to Northampton Kings Heath Depot
https://mobile.twitter.com/GBRailfreight/status/1271072494129209345

 

[fgwrich]

First 360 moved today from Ilford to Northampton Kings Heath Depot
https://mobile.twitter.com/GBRailfreight/status/1271072494129209345

I'm afraid you're a bit behind on that, as the first one moved over on the below path on the 7th.

With the first 360 leaving Greater Anglia on path https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R52088/2020-06-07/detailed I thought it were best to create a thread on them to track the progress.

 

[43096]

So it seems that 360105 will be staying at Northampton for storage for now.

That’s not my understanding. The mods are being done at Northampton, then the sets go back to Greater Anglia. Transfer to EMR happens later.

 

[Mariner16]

GBRf doing the 360 mods, all 21 units coming over will have mods done by the end of November. Mods to the traction motors, horns, windscreen wipers, headlights and the pantograph are being done

 

[Domh245]

GBRf doing the 360 mods, all 21 units coming over will have mods done by the end of November. Mods to the traction motors, horns, windscreen wipers, headlights and the pantograph are being done

Surely Siemens are doing the actual mods, GBRf are just hauling the unit to/from Northampton?

 

[Mariner16]

Surely Siemens are doing the actual mods, GBRf are just hauling the unit to/from Northampton?

Our weekly staff notice says done by GBRf at the Siemens depot in Northampton so unless EMR have it wrong. It is quoted at the same time that they are going back to GA

 

[edwin_m]

Our weekly staff notice says done by GBRf at the Siemens depot in Northampton so unless EMR have it wrong. It is quoted at the same time that they are going back to GA

I think that's probably a misapprehension or miscommunication by whoever wrote the notice. GBRf aren't in the business of modifying passenger trains and I'm pretty sure Siemens are the only people with facilities in Northampton to do such work. And as Siemens made the trains and did the similar mods to the 350s they are the natural choice.

 

[Mikey C]

Will the 360s potentially start arriving before they can be used? Maybe they can start on the interior overhaul before they all enter service?

 

[Class 170101]

Not sure GA will be in a hurry to release them given they have no Class 720s in service yet.

 

[adamedwards]

365s to the rescue? How many would you need to run the exisiting (hourly) Corby service and how many 222s would that release to reduce the need for HSTs? If EMR can be seen to minimise the need for HSTs that would surely help the case for extending the use of the few which are left, if they can be limited to a few peak hours trains?

 

[Bald Rick]

365s to the rescue? How many would you need to run the exisiting (hourly) Corby service and how many 222s would that release to reduce the need for HSTs? If EMR can be seen to minimise the need for HSTs that would surely help the case for extending the use of the few which are left, if they can be limited to a few peak hours trains?

Driver training is by far and away the biggest issue. The 365s don’t solve that.

 

[adamedwards]

OK, so next mad idea: 345s take over Heathrow connect releasing the 5 x 5 car 360/2s, which I'd like to think might be similar enough. Can they be used to do driver training and then some of the Corby trains to release 222s? 5 x 5 car replacing 5 x 4 or 5 car 222s with maintanence cover from the 222s to maxmise the 360/2s in service?

 

[Bald Rick]

OK, so next mad idea: 345s take over Heathrow connect releasing the 5 x 5 car 360/2s, which I'd like to think might be similar enough. Can they be used to do driver training and then some of the Corby trains to release 222s? 5 x 5 car replacing 5 x 4 or 5 car 222s with maintanence cover from the 222s to maxmise the 360/2s in service?

As I said before, it is driver training that is the issue. It doesn’t matter what units turn up, the drivers have to be trained. I’m sure GA will happily release enough 360s for driver training, whenever it can start again. It’s not like they will need the full fleet anytime before the 720s enter service.

 

[edwin_m]

Driver training is by far and away the biggest issue. The 365s don’t solve that.

Someone also mentioned somewhere on here that 110mph is needed to keep to the paths, 365s are only 100mph and unlike the Desiro family probably aren't upgradeable.

 

[DBS92042]

360105 off back to Ilford Depot from Northampton today and presumably back to work with Greater Anglia. Sandwiched between 47739 & 47749 on 5Q60.