EMR still useless

[M7R]

Why is EMR still useless? I was looking to leave Nottingham this eve after 10:30 and there’s nothing till 23:30, this was looking at going to Long Eaton, East Midlands Parkway or Loughborough to avoid having to drive into the middle of Notts and park but seems I have no option (Trams not much quicker than driving if at all… so that’s out)

if you want to leave Notts after 21:30 give up

 

[Merseysider]

Eh? There are services from NOT to East Midlands Parkway at 2048, 2119 (1 change), 2140, 2158 and 2320. That seems fairly reasonable & I wouldn’t call a 1 hour 22 minute gap in service shortly before midnight the end of the world - you’re lucky to have services at that time of night at all.

Try getting a train from Carlisle to Penrith after the 2136 has gone, or from Newcastle to Berwick after 2152, etc... and Bangor to Llandudno has a last train at 2100!

 

[PupCuff]

Late evening trains really do need some thought under the new GBR regime. The last train from Manchester to Nottingham is a frustratingly early 22:28 - which picks up a ton of intermediate calls, presumably itself to provide a later last train to those stations. Bearing in mind the railways are trying to appeal to much more the leisure market these days if we're finishing trains (or ramping the service down to unhelpfully low levels) before people want to come home then it isn't exactly a show of support for city centre leisure economies.

 

[Carlisle]

Try getting a train from Carlisle to Penrith after the 2136 has gone, or from Newcastle to Berwick after 2152, etc... and Bangor to Llandudno has a last train at 2100!

Absolutely, & the last Newcastle to Carlisle is 21.23 which hasn’t changed in decades other than possibly a few minutes either way.

 

[Robertj21a]

Late evening trains really do need some thought under the new GBR regime. The last train from Manchester to Nottingham is a frustratingly early 22:28 - which picks up a ton of intermediate calls, presumably itself to provide a later last train to those stations. Bearing in mind the railways are trying to appeal to much more the leisure market these days if we're finishing trains (or ramping the service down to unhelpfully low levels) before people want to come home then it isn't exactly a show of support for city centre leisure economies.

Not much point (or need?) for even later trains all the time that they are unreliable. Who in their right mind would try to catch the last train nowadays?

 

[robbeech]

Whilst I think the service level there is much better than some other areas we mustn’t forget there’s little incentive to provide trains late at night.

Most of the time people already have their return tickets, and singles are a few pence cheaper so by not running trains late you don’t have to carry as many passengers as they’ll just get a taxi home after a night in the pub.

There’s more chance of disruptive behaviour on board from people who have been drinking. This in turn means the guard is less likely to come through the train for fear or getting punched. As such anyone without a ticket gets away with it, so no revenue opportunities.

disruption on the railway is more likely due to weather issues.

minor delays can cause chaos with missed last connections meaning it’s a faff to sort taxis.

it’s just not worth it for the railway to run lots of services at night. I suspect if they could get away with it they’d scrap a lot more.

 

[RailWonderer]

The last train from Manchester to Nottingham is a frustratingly early 22:28 - which picks up a ton of intermediate calls, presumably itself to provide a later last train to those stations.

Which is cancelled tonight. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C62089/2021-12-14
Taxis, inns or alternative routes?

 

[Merseysider]

Which is cancelled tonight. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C62089/2021-12-14
Taxis, inns or alternative routes?

I feel sorry for intending passengers in Liverpool.
2214 LIV - MAN 2320
2350 MAN - SHF 0127
and then whenever staff there can provide taxis
looks like the best alternative...

...unless they get put on the 2134 to Brum and get a 15 minute hold on the 2309 BHM-NOT...!

 

[robbeech]

Which is cancelled tonight. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C62089/2021-12-14
Taxis, inns or alternative routes?

None of the above if they can get away with it.

I expect they’ll put people into the airport train for Manchester and Sheffield and then taxi people from Sheffield.

...unless they get put on the 2134 to Brum and get a 15 minute hold on the 2309 BHM-NOT...!

Doubtful XC would oblige here, it’ll be a 2 car and the 22** is cancelled so I suspect it’ll already be full and standing.

 

[Sniffingmoose]

Its the same with the last Crosscountry service from Nottingham. Last train towards Burton on Trent, Tamworth or Birmingham is 21:36. So to go to an evening concert in Nottingham we have had to drive to the tram park and ride.

Sadly I would advise not to bother with the train in the East Midlands nowdays, especially at weekends.

Trent Barton buses is the way to travel in the east midlands, its cheaper, , more frequent and on some routes there is a 24 hour service.

Catch the 24 hour Skylink bus service to Long Eaton.

timetable - skylink Nottingham - run by trentbarton

trentbarton are proud to be the really good bus company, serving Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire & Leicestershire in the East Midlands.

www.trentbarton.co.uk

 

[Robertj21a]

Its the same with the last Crosscountry service from Nottingham. Last train towards Burton on Trent, Tamworth or Birmingham is 21:36. So to go to an evening concert in Nottingham we have had to drive to the tram park and ride.

Sadly I would advise not to bother with the train in the East Midlands nowdays, especially at weekends.

Trent Barton buses is the way to travel in the east midlands, its cheaper, , more frequent and on some routes there is a 24 hour service.

Catch the 24 hour Skylink bus service to Long Eaton.

timetable - skylink Nottingham - run by trentbarton

trentbarton are proud to be the really good bus company, serving Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire & Leicestershire in the East Midlands.

www.trentbarton.co.uk

Aren't TrentBarton (and Kinchbus) having to cancel services due to a lack of drivers?

 

[robbeech]

Its the same with the last Crosscountry service from Nottingham. Last train towards Burton on Trent, Tamworth or Birmingham is 21:36. So to go to an evening concert in Nottingham we have had to drive to the tram park and ride.

Sadly I would advise not to bother with the train in the East Midlands nowdays, especially at weekends.

Trent Barton buses is the way to travel in the east midlands, its cheaper, , more frequent and on some routes there is a 24 hour service.

Catch the 24 hour Skylink bus service to Long Eaton.

timetable - skylink Nottingham - run by trentbarton

trentbarton are proud to be the really good bus company, serving Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire & Leicestershire in the East Midlands.

www.trentbarton.co.uk

I certainly can’t go to see a show in Nottingham and get home on the Robin Hood line unless it finishes particularly early (and on a Friday or Saturday evening I wouldn’t entertain the idea anyway due to the clientele) due to those connections it makes getting home from working in London more difficult too. To the point where I am going to be using the car more.

 

[Tomnick]

None of the above if they can get away with it.

I expect they’ll put people into the airport train for Manchester and Sheffield and then taxi people from Sheffield.

It's a shame there's not a convenient set of fully-crewed empties running back from Liverpool that way at around the same time

 

[robbeech]

It's a shame there's not a convenient set of fully-crewed empties running back from Liverpool that way at around the same time

Is it fully crewed? Is the guard still on duty? Would a guard that has finished duty still be allowed to travel on an ECS move? Officially? Unofficially? If the guard has finished but the driver (obviously) hasn’t then it couldn’t run in service.

I once enquired why the 2205 from Nottigham to Worksop ran back all the way to Nottingham ECS instead of forming what would be a very useful 23** from Worksop allowing fantastic later connections from London, Leeds, York, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Hull, and everywhere else inbetween. Apparently not possible because there was no on duty guard for the service (Infact I think one lived in Worksop so if they were on the shift it would be driver only on the ECS move)

 

[louis97]

Is it fully crewed? Is the guard still on duty? Would a guard that has finished duty still be allowed to travel on an ECS move? Officially? Unofficially? If the guard has finished but the driver (obviously) hasn’t then it couldn’t run in service.

I once enquired why the 2205 from Nottigham to Worksop ran back all the way to Nottingham ECS instead of forming what would be a very useful 23** from Worksop allowing fantastic later connections from London, Leeds, York, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Hull, and everywhere else inbetween. Apparently not possible because there was no on duty guard for the service (Infact I think one lived in Worksop so if they were on the shift it would be driver only on the ECS move)

If the guard is being paid, they are on duty. Can't see any guards agreeing to a unpaid pass ride, the guard on the last Worksop will be travelling passenger and therefore on duty.

 

[Failed Unit]

If the guard is being paid, they are on duty. Can't see any guards agreeing to a unpaid pass ride, the guard on the last Worksop will be travelling passenger and therefore on duty.

We had a weird one a number of years back, where a train from Lincoln - Grimsby was an ECS because the guard was on a PNB. Not sure how the guard felt that this break was riding on a train (or the union for that matter). But had they worked that train in service they would be out of hours. It was annoying as it gave a 4 hour gap between trains. Fortunately it was sorted at the next timetable change. Knowing the guard of that sometimes works the first Cleethorpes - Newark service, he gets on at Market Rasen on the ECS run from Lincoln - Cleethorpes so I guess it happens. Not sure when he clocks on however.

 

[Tomnick]

Is it fully crewed? Is the guard still on duty? Would a guard that has finished duty still be allowed to travel on an ECS move? Officially? Unofficially? If the guard has finished but the driver (obviously) hasn’t then it couldn’t run in service.

I once enquired why the 2205 from Nottigham to Worksop ran back all the way to Nottingham ECS instead of forming what would be a very useful 23** from Worksop allowing fantastic later connections from London, Leeds, York, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Hull, and everywhere else inbetween. Apparently not possible because there was no on duty guard for the service (Infact I think one lived in Worksop so if they were on the shift it would be driver only on the ECS move)

The guard's back 'pass' on it, still on duty and being paid but not involved in the operation of the train. The only problem is that they won't necessarily sign via Chat Moss and/or Romiley to work the train in the path of the empties.

Not that train, but I've certainly had what used to be the evening empties back from Man Picc run in service at short notice a couple of times on a Saturday evening when the passenger service that should run just in front of it had been cancelled (on one of those occasions, we - the traincrew - suggested it a few minutes before departure and Control, to their credit, were straight onto it).

The empties off the last Worksop do now come back in service, albeit first stop Shirebrook and non-stop after Kirkby. It always used to convey the guard back 'pass', in theory at least. I guess that the main objections would always have been the need for the guard to sign via Pinxton (the WTT path goes that way), and the need for rail replacement in the Up direction when it's spun at Mansfield Woodhouse for the periodical possessions (every sixth week?).

 

[robbeech]

The guard's back 'pass' on it, still on duty and being paid but not involved in the operation of the train. The only problem is that they won't necessarily sign via Chat Moss and/or Romiley to work the train in the path of the empties.

Not that train, but I've certainly had what used to be the evening empties back from Man Picc run in service at short notice a couple of times on a Saturday evening when the passenger service that should run just in front of it had been cancelled (on one of those occasions, we - the traincrew - suggested it a few minutes before departure and Control, to their credit, were straight onto it).

The empties off the last Worksop do now come back in service, albeit first stop Shirebrook and non-stop after Kirkby. It always used to convey the guard back 'pass', in theory at least. I guess that the main objections would always have been the need for the guard to sign via Pinxton (the WTT path goes that way), and the need for rail replacement in the Up direction when it's spun at Mansfield Woodhouse for the periodical possessions (every sixth week?).

I did think all guards that sign via Hucknall signed via pinxton to as it does divert that way in service sometimes when it falls over on the single line, or maybe it’s just been luck that the guard has signed it.

As for the last services back from Worksop now. It’s apparently a bus at the moment and apparently stops all stations. Journey planners offer it at least. Is that a myth do you know as it’s a useful service if it’s true. (2343 from Worksop)

 

[D1537]

Live in the West Midlands (Rugby/Cov/Brum) and fancy a Saturday night out in London? You won't be going by train. Last one 21.42.

 

[Mugby]

The 1239 Nottingham - Norwich today (Tuesday) is shown on RTT as both operating and cancelled, it must have been one or the other, could the incoming train have been taken out of service and a replacement provided at Nottm?

 

[Tomnick]

I did think all guards that sign via Hucknall signed via pinxton to as it does divert that way in service sometimes when it falls over on the single line, or maybe it’s just been luck that the guard has signed it.

As for the last services back from Worksop now. It’s apparently a bus at the moment and apparently stops all stations. Journey planners offer it at least. Is that a myth do you know as it’s a useful service if it’s true. (2343 from Worksop)

I've no idea what's going on with it. It looks like the last one out and back is cancelled and replaced by a bus all week (traincrew related?). The bus is indeed all stops as you say. Next week looks like a week of possessions north of Mansfield Woodhouse but with no sign of either the 23:43 train back or a bus replacement - not sure why the WTT schedule isn't showing on RTT even as a cancellation? The following week looks like the train's back, first stop Shirebrook on the way back (and via Toton too for the track bashers).

The 1239 Nottingham - Norwich today (Tuesday) is shown on RTT as both operating and cancelled, it must have been one or the other, could the incoming train have been taken out of service and a replacement provided at Nottm?

Restarted right time at Nottingham under a VSTP schedule (1Z09 vice 1L09) according to RTT, presumably as the inward from Liverpool was significantly delayed. 1Z09 ran, 1L09 was then cancelled at Nottingham.

 

[driverd]

Whilst I think the service level there is much better than some other areas we mustn’t forget there’s little incentive to provide trains late at night.

Most of the time people already have their return tickets, and singles are a few pence cheaper so by not running trains late you don’t have to carry as many passengers as they’ll just get a taxi home after a night in the pub.

But, arguably, the railway could have some of this lucrative market if it offered later services, especially on key runs. On many a Friday and Saturday night, I've seen the as was 01.xx Manchester Airport -York full and standing. If ticket checks were conducted, many, many passengers would need to pay. If done in the right manner, the majority were happy to.

There’s more chance of disruptive behaviour on board from people who have been drinking. This in turn means the guard is less likely to come through the train for fear or getting punched. As such anyone without a ticket gets away with it, so no revenue opportunities.

I do agree with the final comment here - however, from experience, I would argue that the idea that people are likely to cause problems or behave more aggressively simply isn't true. Being friendly and approachable tends to be all that is required. From my experience, there is often far more trouble at other times of the day, and attitude makes all the difference.

This said, it's really important that operators do their bit too, so if that means redeployment of other staff to police key late trains, so be it.

disruption on the railway is more likely due to weather issues.

That's generally not the case anymore than any other time of the day.

minor delays can cause chaos with missed last connections meaning it’s a faff to sort taxis.

There's always a last train so this will always be a problem, unless everything ends up 24/7.

it’s just not worth it for the railway to run lots of services at night. I suspect if they could get away with it they’d scrap a lot more.

I think this is fundamentally a question of purpose. If you can fill a 23.30, 00.30 or 01.30 departure, why should these customers have any less right to a service than those using a 1/4 full train at 11.30. Just because they're more likely to be intoxicated, doesn't somehow suggest they have less right to a service.

I'd strongly argue that, given the increase push toward leisure, this is exactly the market the railways should be looking toward - because the market is there, it just needs a slightly different approach to the one taken for other times of the day.

 

[Vespa]

You could always do what my friend did, drink later and go to the railway station and wait 3 -4 hours for the first train home in the morning

 

[LowLevel]

I did think all guards that sign via Hucknall signed via pinxton to as it does divert that way in service sometimes when it falls over on the single line, or maybe it’s just been luck that the guard has signed it.

As for the last services back from Worksop now. It’s apparently a bus at the moment and apparently stops all stations. Journey planners offer it at least. Is that a myth do you know as it’s a useful service if it’s true. (2343 from Worksop)

Nottingham and Derby guards sign via Pinxton, generally, Norwich and Lincoln don't.

 

[robbeech]

That's generally not the case anymore than any other time of the day.

There's always a last train so this will always be a problem, unless everything ends up 24/7.

Fair enough but as the day progresses the alternative options become fewer. If the last train is the 2130 there’s more chance for a local run there’s still a bus. If the last train is 2330 there might not be. Of course it can go either way, sometimes there are later buses.

. Just because they're more likely to be intoxicated, doesn't somehow suggest they have less right to a service.

They certainly don’t have any less rights to a service but the railway has less incentive to carry them.

Whitwell Nottingham is £7.10 single and £9.20 return. And of course many flows are just 10p different.
If someone fancies a Friday night in Nottingham they can pay £9.20 and cut their evening short or they can pay the vast majority of that fee £7.10 and get a taxi back. Or better still get their self in a premier inn and pay another £7.10 the following day to go home (no period returns available).

 

[Llandudno]

Whilst I think the service level there is much better than some other areas we mustn’t forget there’s little incentive to provide trains late at night.

Most of the time people already have their return tickets, and singles are a few pence cheaper so by not running trains late you don’t have to carry as many passengers as they’ll just get a taxi home after a night in the pub.

There’s more chance of disruptive behaviour on board from people who have been drinking. This in turn means the guard is less likely to come through the train for fear or getting punched. As such anyone without a ticket gets away with it, so no revenue opportunities.

disruption on the railway is more likely due to weather issues.

minor delays can cause chaos with missed last connections meaning it’s a faff to sort taxis.

it’s just not worth it for the railway to run lots of services at night. I suspect if they could get away with it they’d scrap a lot more.

If there are no late trains to get people home from sports events, concerts, theatres, cinemas, restaurants etc, perhaps they wouldn’t travel by train to the event in the first place so loss of revenue on daytime services….

Alternatively pesky passengers are a nuisance that the rail operators don’t want, so don’t bother operating passenger services at all….!

 

[robbeech]

Alternatively pesky passengers are a nuisance that the rail operators don’t want, so don’t bother operating passenger services at all….!

We all know this would be the preferred option for the railway. If only there were someone who could fund their existence without them having to worry about ticket sales and passenger numbers.

Oh.

If there are no late trains to get people home from sports events, concerts, theatres, cinemas, restaurants etc, perhaps they wouldn’t travel by train to the event in the first place so loss of revenue on daytime services….

Naturally there will be people put off in this way. But on a Friday night 3 or 4 consecutive services are full and standing and the last one back is full and standing so there’s a LOT of 1 way traffic.

 

[m_m]

The train companies are looking at this all wrong if what has been said in this thread is true.

If they ran more later services (or at least kept the frequency steady) then more people would travel full stop. I wouldn't get the train from LGE to NOT and then the bus back - I'd just save a chunk and get a bus return or drive both ways. So the railway gets nothing. If the railway ran reasonable services both ways I'd be on that over the bus/driving every time.

Are frequency and first/last services written into franchise documents?

 

[dk1]

Are frequency and first/last services written into franchise documents?

I have always understood that they are, but does any of that stand now?

 

[sk688]

Live in the West Midlands (Rugby/Cov/Brum) and fancy a Saturday night out in London? You won't be going by train. Last one 21.42.

it is a shame that the West Midlands last trains are so early , compared to Milton Keynes and Northampton , who get last trains up to 0134
Are the 2230 and 2330 Avanti Wolverhampton trains no longer running ?