EMT timetabled wait near Hazel Grove each morning

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by Haydn1971, 7 May 2015.

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  1. Haydn1971

    Haydn1971 Established Member

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    Most mornings the EMT train I catch between Dore and Oxford Road is subjected to a short stop on exit from Disley Tunnel, sometimes it's as little as 30 seconds, other times it's several minutes... Is this a timing stage to avoid clogging the Greater Manchester stations up ? Annoyingly, the train stops just short of a mobile data signal ;)
     
  2. kjhskj75

    kjhskj75 Member

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    Presumably there is stuff going on at Hazel Grove and the signaller is busy with it, or perhaps a train is blocking a platform there. Check the timetables to see what else is happening there at that time.
     
  3. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    3 minutes engineering time between Chinley and Hazel Grove, run on time you will get held or slow right down.
     
  4. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    This will either be:

    Both have 3 minutes engineering allowance and additionally 1 minute performance allowance shown at New Mills South Jn.

    The former appears to have been held to time (though it's unclear what it was held for) although it did lose about half a minute, but the latter was allowed to arrive into Hazel Grove early.

    So you were probably on 1R50, which is the 0627 from Dore.
     
  5. Haydn1971

    Haydn1971 Established Member

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    I was indeed on the former... Cheers for the feedback all
     
  6. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    So its a 3 minute timetabled wait rather than a delay then!

    Another thread title which is presumptuous and wrong.
     
  7. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Fixed :)

    Edit: OP - as mentioned via PM, feel free to edit the original post with an appropriate title of your choosing.
     
    Last edited: 8 May 2015
  8. Tomnick

    Tomnick Established Member

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    Is the junction at Hazel Grove, or at least the line towards Buxton, inside the overlap of its protecting signal? With no sign of anything booked towards Chinley at that time, it seems unlikely that a train would deliberately be brought to a stand at the signal in rear of that one just to wait time for a minute or two!
     
  9. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    Its not a timetabled wait either, its engineering recovery time, therefore logically you would expect a long dwell at Hazel Grove if nothing is wrong.
     
  10. Haydn1971

    Haydn1971 Established Member

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    On the evening train home, the guard announces a timetabled "halt" at Dore - no such announcement is made in the morning. As a passenger, it is natural to ask "why" something like this happens - to me as a passenger, it's a what appears to be an unnecessary delay in the middle of nowhere.
     
    Last edited: 8 May 2015
  11. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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    Whilst as a passenger its reasonable to ask why, do you really think that it is likely to be an 'unnecessary delay' i.e. the signaller just feels like holding your train for no reason
     
  12. Haydn1971

    Haydn1971 Established Member

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    The OP was enquiring why out of curiosity. When something is unknown, it appears unnecessary until it's explained - whilst the halt is regular, I often see other passengers looking around wondering what's happened - perhaps it's because we have become accustomed to other random halts as a result of signal faults, trespass, cable theft etc - regardless, it adds a small degree of travel anxiety.
     
  13. crehld

    crehld Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    I'd agree with this. And perhaps a little communication from on board staff would be an easy way stop this speculation/curiosity/anxiety which seems to upset some people. Indeed, it could even work in a train company's favour by highlighting the fact the service is so incredibly good and reliable that you've arrived early! ;)

    A while back I used to commute between Portsmouth and Petersfield. Every evening we were held outside Havant for three or four minutes, but it was always explained that we had arrived early, we weren't due into Havant for a few minutes yet and that we were still due to arrive into Portsmouth on time without delay. This sort of simple but proactive approach puts people's minds at rest, especially those who might not have an in depth understanding of the role of engineering allowances, timetabled waits and so on (i.e. the vast majority of us whinging passengers).
     
  14. johnnychips

    johnnychips Established Member

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    Whenever the South TPE is held outside Manchester Airport, the guard usually explains that we are early and waiting for a train to leave the platform.
     
  15. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    Looks like just one of those things where the timetable falls that way. You get to Dore at the same time as a St Pancras - Sheffield EMT. The EMT passes Dore Station Junction at xx.36, you can't go until xx.38 because of that, but the Reading Newcastle XC passes Dore Station Jn at xx.40 so that doesn't work. Therefore you get stuffed until that passes which makes it xx.42 until you depart. In reality its probably slightly earlier as the driver will go on the single yellow and not the green we time to.
     
  16. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    Presuming this is the 1743 from Piccadilly, I think this is a consequence of the extra stops at Chinley and Dore knocking this train off-pattern so it can't get ahead of the other trains as it does in other hours of the day. I don't think this happened before the EMT acceleration of London trains, before which the slower train to Sheffield waited several minutes for a path at Derby so would have passed Dore quite a bit later.

    Regarding the eastbound train in the OP, EMT towards Liverpool has to get through flat junctions at Hazel Grove, Edgeley No1 and No2 and Slade Lane before it gets to Piccadilly. All have other train services on conflicting routes so if it misses its slot it will delay itself further or delay something else. The line from Sheffield to Hazel Grove is probably more prone to delays than most because of the long signalling blocks and the risk of poor weather conditions in the Peaks. So it is wise to allow some "recovery time" before the first of these junctions. Probably if there was a clear route through to Hazel Grove the signaller would let it continue. If stopping there it would then take the extra time as a longer stop, otherwise it would probably end up standing the signal protecting Edgeley No1 (certainly a frequent occurrence at other times of day).
     
    Last edited: 8 May 2015
  17. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    Its not recovery though, its box time (although excessive, 3 is a lot for one location). If it was 3 in a diamond then I would agree.
     
  18. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    We can only announce something we know about. Engineering and patching allowances aren't on our job cards. As far as the guard is concerned you're just stopped at a signal and the 2 minute then 10 minute announcement procedure applies.
     
  19. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    Thats why I never took power after leaving Buriton tunnel, I just let the gradient do the work and it loses a few of those minutes as well so the train might not have to even stop before Havant Jn. This assumes the train was on time other wise its power up and use those minutes to pull a bit of time back.
     
  20. oddiesjack

    oddiesjack Member

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    Last year, I used to use 1R50 (The EMT service the OP was asking about) daily, and regularly was held at the signal protecting Hazel Grove High Level Junction, which IIRC is HG21.

    This was invariably due to 2H90, the 06:49 Manchester Piccadilly-Buxton service being 2 or 3 minutes late leaving Hazel Grove. On leaving Chinley, I would check on how this train was running (on RTT), to see if my train would be held at Hazel Grove High Level.

    In general, if it was on time, there would only be the briefest of delays, or none at all.
    If it was 1-5 minutes late, there would be a commensurate wait.
    If it was over 5 minutes, the HGR signalman would normally allow us out over the junctions before the Buxton train left the station, so again, no delay.

    I also think the section from the Up station starter towards Buxton is fairly long, and is certainly an adverse gradient, so it takes a good couple of minutes for an Up train to clear

    There is a signal protecting the Low Level Junction, but this is on the single-line chord section, and possibly the rear of the train may still be fouling the High Level Junction if held here, both good reasons why trains will be held at the preceding signal.
     
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