• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

EMU/ DMU Set Formations

Status
Not open for further replies.

A340600MAN

New Member
Joined
6 Mar 2020
Messages
3
Location
Manchester
Hi

After a long time (over 15 years) away from the hobby I am just getting back into the swing of things.

My apologies for what may seem a dumb question but do coaches within sets of DMU's or EMU's change between sets. This may be due to a failure of lets say the centre coach of a 3/4/5 car sets or maybe one of the coaches on the west coast line sets?

Would the whole set be withdrawn or a spare replacement coach (if they exist of course)used?

Regards
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

FGW_DID

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2011
Messages
2,724
Location
81E
Normally as a rule of thumb, I would say they remain as fixed formations and a fault with the middle vehicle of a 3car (for example) would sideline the whole set, however if that fault was a long term issue, dependant on location of components within the set etc it may be possible to break out the middle car and reform the set as a 2 car. We did this a couple years ago with a Class 166 Turbo, the middle vehicle needed to be sent away for investigation (after a fire I think it was). The 2 outer vehicles were then reformed and utilised as a two car until the return of the middle vehicle. (166204 rings a bell)

Conversely we have had a 166 unit with one of the outer vehicles sent away, the middle vehicle was subsequently inserted into the middle of a 2 car 165 and that was then utilised as a 3 car unit. (166209 & 165128 IIRC)

I may be wrong but I don’t think that’s possible with something like our Class 387s.
 

tomwills98

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2018
Messages
292
Location
Bridgend
I'd think maintenance teams would like to keep everything fixed and not split units up, probably easier to keep track of faults and service/exam history.

For TfW, best example I can think of would be 175107. It's formed of three carriages set but the engines in the middle carriage caught fire February last year, the middle car was taken out for repairs and it ran around as a two car set for a while.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,717
Location
Glasgow
Hi

After a long time (over 15 years) away from the hobby I am just getting back into the swing of things.

My apologies for what may seem a dumb question but do coaches within sets of DMU's or EMU's change between sets. This may be due to a failure of lets say the centre coach of a 3/4/5 car sets or maybe one of the coaches on the west coast line sets?

Would the whole set be withdrawn or a spare replacement coach (if they exist of course)used?

Regards

Very rarely if a vehicle or vehicles are damaged due to an accident or whatever, sometimes undamaged vehicles from the damaged set will be inserted into other sets which may also have a damaged vehicle but not the same one. It's not common and it's done normally only within the same class of train.

It's not like BR first generation DMUs where as long as the multiple working code was the same, any vehicle from any class could be added or removed from sets on a frequent ad hoc basis. Most units now have fixed bar couplers between intermediate vehicles which also precludes changes to set formations, units now are designed as fixed sets for the most part.
 

theblackwatch

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2006
Messages
10,714
As others have said, reformations are less common nowadays. One example which has uccurred in the past couple of weeks is the removal of the centre car from 144021, making it a 2-car set
 

themiller

Member
Joined
4 Dec 2011
Messages
1,056
Location
Cumbria, UK
I was at Kings Cross last year and noticed a 180 cobbled together from vehicles from 2 (or more) sets. This was when they were having dire problems with them.
 
Joined
10 Jan 2018
Messages
276
Class 313 unit, 313034, ran as a 2-car set as its centre car (71246) was used on Class 316 prototype EMU. During this time the unit became 750v DC third-rail only and operated on the now closed Croxley branch. I think the traction motors got burnt out and proved unsuccessful.

One of the Class 377/4 four-car units, 377442, lost its MSOL vehicle following fire damage. As a result the unit was converted to Class 377/3 three-car set and renumbered 377342.
 

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
7,807
Location
Dalton GA USA & Preston Lancs
So in this era have we lost flexibility/compatibility compared to say 20 years ago? I remember Merseyrail units losing a vehicle and being inserted in Southern EMUs - was that 507/508?
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,397
So in this era have we lost flexibility/compatibility compared to say 20 years ago? I remember Merseyrail units losing a vehicle and being inserted in Southern EMUs - was that 507/508?

What do you mean? There’s not many other instances of this coach swapping taking place with second-generation EMUs, and there’s hardly a need for it anyway.

Might also be worth pointing out that for the most part, it is usually easier to remove intermediate coaches from DMUs. Most/all vehicles (depending on type) are independently powered.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,274
I think swapping driving cars to make one good unit from two after front end or cab window damage is fairly common. Eventually they’d nearly always swap back though there have been units misformed for a few years.

There’s little or no likelihood of a purpose built spare vehicle being available, unless at some stage a unit is partially written off to donate some.
 
Last edited:

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,397
Many multiple units have equipment spread throughout the vehicles so removal of one vehicle may mean loss of the only 'widget' on the set.

Indeed what I was referring to, particularly in the case of EMUs.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,028
Location
West Wiltshire
So in this era have we lost flexibility/compatibility compared to say 20 years ago? I remember Merseyrail units losing a vehicle and being inserted in Southern EMUs - was that 507/508?

You are thinking of the class 508 sets which ran on SW London services in early 1980s
One of the middle cars was removed, the 3car set went to Merseyside, and the 4th car was moved to the 43 units of 455/7 (which only had 3 new cars, unlike the other 455s)
 

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
7,807
Location
Dalton GA USA & Preston Lancs
You are thinking of the class 508 sets which ran on SW London services in early 1980s
One of the middle cars was removed, the 3car set went to Merseyside, and the 4th car was moved to the 43 units of 455/7 (which only had 3 new cars, unlike the other 455s)
Thank you for that reminder. I had forgotten all that. I avidly read Rail Enthusiast and Modern Railways in the 1980s but stopped when I moved to the USA until 2010. It just seemed things were more flexible in those days. Obviously Loco + coaching stock had even more flexibility than DMU/EMUs. Perhaps that is just my perception.
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,445
Location
Yorkshire
When 156468 & 490 were damaged in the 1995 Ais Gill crash the good cars from each unit were formed together for a while. As neither contained a toilet they were confined to the Doncaster - Adwick shuttle. 150209 is formed of the surviving vehicles from 150209 & 212. Again neither has a toilet although it is in for refurb at the mo and so may have one fitted.

Many 150/2 units were split in the 90’s and the individual vehicles were formed in the middle of 150/1’s to form 3 car units. All are reformed back as 2 car units.

Northern’s 3 car 158’s have a centre car from a diffferent unit from the ex TransPennine 158 fleet.
 

Nick Ashwell

Member
Joined
20 Dec 2018
Messages
389
At least once didn't FGW run a Class 153 in a Class 150 set when one of the end cars was damaged? Numbered as a Class 153/9 IIRC
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,445
Location
Yorkshire
153399?

In the past there have also been 153+1 x 156 or 158 vehicle.

I worked a formation with a 153 + 1 vehicle of possibly 156489 in Northern Spirit days.

Also in the early days of the 158’s there was the 6 x 158/6’s created using 1x156 + 1x158 vehicle as the 158’s weren’t operating track circuits in leaf fall.

In the early days of the 156’s some 3 car sets were formed by splitting one set and inserting the vehicles into another 156. Most famously at Inverness for the Kyle and Far North lines but less well known at Neville Hill for S&C services before the platforms were extended to take 4 cars.
 

TheSel

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2017
Messages
855
Location
Southport, Merseyside
You are thinking of the class 508 sets which ran on SW London services in early 1980s
One of the middle cars was removed, the 3car set went to Merseyside, and the 4th car was moved to the 43 units of 455/7 (which only had 3 new cars, unlike the other 455s)

My memory is hazy, but I'm sure Merseyrail reformed a 508 into a four car set for a brief trail, maybe around 10 years ago? Not successful - soon reverted to type.

Otherwise, here in Northern territory, perhaps the current pairing of 57209 / 57212 is worth a mention, if only because of the consequent absence of a toilet on this set?
 

Attachments

  • 57209 - 150209 - Liverpool Lime Street (hybrid set, with 57212).jpg
    3.5 MB · Views: 35

PeterC

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2014
Messages
4,073
Thank you for that reminder. I had forgotten all that. I avidly read Rail Enthusiast and Modern Railways in the 1980s but stopped when I moved to the USA until 2010. It just seemed things were more flexible in those days. Obviously Loco + coaching stock had even more flexibility than DMU/EMUs. Perhaps that is just my perception.
They definitely were more flexible. I have seen all sorts of combinations on 1st generation DMUs including one formed of 3 driving cars.
 

bnsf734

Member
Joined
15 Oct 2007
Messages
563
Location
Nuneaton
They definitely were more flexible. I have seen all sorts of combinations on 1st generation DMUs including one formed of 3 driving cars.

There was a working I heard about a few years ago (in the classic era) when a 6 car (2x 3 car) Edinburgh to North Berwick peak service was split at North Berwick to return on 2 different services. The first set departed OK but when the driver attempted to start the engines of the other set he discovered it was formed of 3 trailer cars!
 
Joined
10 Jan 2018
Messages
276
Otherwise, here in Northern territory, perhaps the current pairing of 57209 / 57212 is worth a mention, if only because of the consequent absence of a toilet on this set?

52209 (150209) and 52212 (150212) DMSL vehicles were written off in separate accidents in the late 1980s. As a result, 57209 and 57212 were later used as centre cars on Centro Class 150 units during the 1990s and 2000s and later on GWR Class 150/9s.

Today 57209 + 57212 is now part of unit 150209. Hopefully when the comes for its refurbishment one of the vehicles will then have a disabled toilet fitted.
 

delt1c

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2008
Messages
2,125
There was a working I heard about a few years ago (in the classic era) when a 6 car (2x 3 car) Edinburgh to North Berwick peak service was split at North Berwick to return on 2 different services. The first set departed OK but when the driver attempted to start the engines of the other set he discovered it was formed of 3 trailer cars!
If that was the case how was it driven to North Berwick? Scr didnt have many DTC's.
 

delt1c

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2008
Messages
2,125
1st gen DMU's tended to be semi "loose". EMU's tended to more fixed formations. However they were still versatile. There was 302 which had a 504 DTS, also 309 which had an ex 123 Buffet car. Then if 1 car was defective it could be replaced. Now a whole unit is taken out of service, yes this certainly is progress.
 

sd0733

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2012
Messages
3,544
For TfW, best example I can think of would be 175107. It's formed of three carriages set but the engines in the middle carriage caught fire February last year, the middle car was taken out for repairs and it ran around as a two car set for a while.

Quite a few 175s are good examples of chopping and changing, 175109 is currently formed of coaches from 3 separate units, whilst I think its 175004 is actually the 2 outer coaches from 109, there are quite a few others too.

The 350 fleet also has quite a few mixed sets running round, 3 of the /1s are mixed up from when were damaged new and 3 /2s from a run of incidents a few years ago.
 

tomwills98

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2018
Messages
292
Location
Bridgend
Quite a few 175s are good examples of chopping and changing, 175109 is currently formed of coaches from 3 separate units, whilst I think its 175004 is actually the 2 outer coaches from 109, there are quite a few others too.

The 350 fleet also has quite a few mixed sets running round, 3 of the /1s are mixed up from when were damaged new and 3 /2s from a run of incidents a few years ago.

175109 is currently showing as 50704, 56759, and 79705, and 175004 is 50759 and 79759. Some proper Frankentrains going on there
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,340
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
The Southern Region in the 1970s and 1980s were quite blase about re-formations, but their stock was mostly Mk1s and so were easily interchangeable. The Weymouth electrification period saw many very temporary units, for example, and a number of 4CEPs were reduced to 3CEPs for use on the south-eastern section. 3D unit 1309 gained a Hastings unit vehicle for a while in the late 1980s too.

6456245729_af49faf59a_o1100.jpg 7582131666_fc7c140077_o1100.jpg 7313531780_6c8d578a43_o1100.jpg 7439880912_fcfd9190d1_o1100.jpg
 

GLC

Member
Joined
21 Nov 2018
Messages
298
A driving cab on 314203 was written off, and was replaced by the driving cab from a 507 permanently. This gave 314203 the distinction of being the only 314 with a bin available for passenger use incidentally!
 

IamTrainsYT

Member
Joined
8 Dec 2018
Messages
1,073
Location
Glossop
As others have said, reformations are less common nowadays. One example which has uccurred in the past couple of weeks is the removal of the centre car from 144021, making it a 2-car set
Was given to heavily corroded 144008, the centre car of 144021 was also corroded
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,397
A driving cab on 314203 was written off, and was replaced by the driving cab from a 507 permanently. This gave 314203 the distinction of being the only 314 with a bin available for passenger use incidentally!

That’s news to me but it might be Wikipedia inaccuracy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top