ENCTS and ‘split ticketing’ just before 0930

[Sprinter153]

By virtue of having a disability which means I am medically unfit to drive, I hold a Derbyshire ENCTS (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) card. This permits me free travel on most buses in England 0930-2300 weekdays and all day Sundays and bank holidays.

This morning I boarded a trentbarton service at 0926 and requested a single ticket to a few stops away to enable me to use my pass and continue my journey on the same bus. My request was denied by the driver who threatened to withdraw my pass and made some vague comments about ‘that sort of thing’ not being allowed. I was required to purchase the full single fare for the whole distance of my journey. I couldn’t travel any later due to needing to get to a hospital appointment.

After the fact, trentbarton’s travel centre is adamant that the driver took the correct course of action and my intention to ‘split ticket’ constituted misuse of my pass.

I have reviewed the terms and conditions which came with my pass and I cannot see anything to back up this point of view, merely a statement that the pass is valid ‘for all local bus journeys between 09:30 and 23:00 Monday to Friday and at all times on weekends and public holidays’.

Does anyone here have any insight into the validity (or lack thereof) of trentbarton’s claim? I cannot find anything to back their view up.

I have concluded it is a case of them preferring to receive an entire fare rather than the smaller fare and an ENCTS journey rebate from my council, although that would be a prime case of taking advantage of the elderly, disabled and vulnerable people to whom these passes are issued!

Any insight anyone can offer would be very welcome.

 

[Eyersey468]

I can't comment on Trent Barton but at East Yorkshire we've always been told that pass holders are permitted to pay up to the half 9.start time then use their pass from there.

 

[Ianno87]

Could you pay the single fare up to a stop that you know is fairly busy and likely to stop to let passengers off.

Get off, join the back of the queue and re-board using your pass

 

[wazztie16]

I can verify that the driver was correct, I was a driver for TB for a few years recently, it's in the drivers handbook, I'm not sure whether it's a term of the bus pass or not, but the driver was definitely correct.

I even had to show the handbook page to another driver once as they didn't believe me.

 

[Busaholic]

By virtue of having a disability which means I am medically unfit to drive, I hold a Derbyshire ENCTS (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) card. This permits me free travel on most buses in England 0930-2300 weekdays and all day Sundays and bank holidays.

This morning I boarded a trentbarton service at 0926 and requested a single ticket to a few stops away to enable me to use my pass and continue my journey on the same bus. My request was denied by the driver who threatened to withdraw my pass and made some vague comments about ‘that sort of thing’ not being allowed. I was required to purchase the full single fare for the whole distance of my journey. I couldn’t travel any later due to needing to get to a hospital appointment.

After the fact, trentbarton’s travel centre is adamant that the driver took the correct course of action and my intention to ‘split ticket’ constituted misuse of my pass.

I have reviewed the terms and conditions which came with my pass and I cannot see anything to back up this point of view, merely a statement that the pass is valid ‘for all local bus journeys between 09:30 and 23:00 Monday to Friday and at all times on weekends and public holidays’.

Does anyone here have any insight into the validity (or lack thereof) of trentbarton’s claim? I cannot find anything to back their view up.

I have concluded it is a case of them preferring to receive an entire fare rather than the smaller fare and an ENCTS journey rebate from my council, although that would be a prime case of taking advantage of the elderly, disabled and vulnerable people to whom these passes are issued!

Any insight anyone can offer would be very welcome.

I've just read through the government advice to authorities administering the ENCTS , easily available online, and this issue is, regrettably, not broached anywhere, which may of course be deliberate! By the same token, if you board a bus at 10.55 p.m. and haven't completed your journey by 11 p.m. it'd be invidious for TrentBarton to start demanding part payment for your journey, so I guess there's nothing you can do about it, short of getting off the bus and getting on again before it speeds away, although you might find the driver wouldn't allow that either.

 

[PhilStockley]

In practical daily life, most operators and drivers will have no issue with 'split ticketing' in the way you describe.

In legal terms, I think trentbarton could offer a strong justification for their position. Deep within the bowels of the legislation, section 145 of the Transport Act 2000 (as amended by the Concessionary Bus Travel Act 2007) describes the right to free travel for a permit holder "who travels on an eligible journey on an eligible service", and then goes on to define an eligible journey as "a journey on one public service vehicle (in one direction)" (my emphasis).

I suspect that the intention of this clause was to make it clear that if you have to change buses and the second leg of your journey starts after 0930, you're fine. However, this can also be interpreted to refer to any single journey and the basis for trentbarton's argument would presumably be that if you don't leave the vehicle (and arguably even if you do and immediately reboard, as per Ianno87 above), you are only making *a journey* (and not several journeys) and therefore if that journey starts outside the times of validity, it's not valid in its entirety.

As with many elements of legislaton, it's all a matter of interpretation and no-one could really know for sure unless the issue is ever tried in the courts (and even then with no guarantee of clarity), but it seems to me that there is logic in tb's approach, no matter how unfriendly it may seem.

 

[ChrisPJ]

You’d think this would be a business opportunity for TB to exploit and promote. Get a modest fare pre 0930, get a concession payment post 0930, spread the pass holder demand a bit, and maybe grow the market rather than lose customers to other modes. On the other hand I guess there’s the risk of over-staging.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I have seen the same problem elsewhere in the country.

Stagecoach in and around the Lake District apply a similar policy (or used to when observed). There was a 77 service which departed Keswick at 0920 and ENCTS holders would try to buy a single to the caravan site between Catbells and Portinscale, rather than paying the eye-watering single fare to Buttermere (nearly the price of an all-day explorer ticket).

More discriminatory was applying the 'no split ticket' rule to the 73 placing journey from Carlisle to Keswick, which departed Carlisle at 0905 (well before twirly time) and Dalston at 0920. I suspect ENCTS users drove to Dalston and then tried to buy a single from there. There seemed to be a discussion each time I caught it. The service no longer operates, perhaps preventing it becoming popular was the strategy to allow its removal.

 

[Busaholic]

Of course, you could confine your bus travels to London or Cornwall (but nowhere in the vast expanses between) and be fancy free twenty four hours a day, although you'd be hard pressed to find buses anywhere in Cornwall at 3 a.m.

 

[deanmachine]

If you do that, what's to stop the other 30 concessionary holders getting on just before 9:30 doing the same thing? The "twirly rush" is bad enough already without half the bus coming to the front at 9:30 to get another ticket.

 

[robk23oxf]

There's nothing wrong with split ticketing, it's just down to company policy or even regional policy in the case of the big groups.

 

[Whistler40145]

In Blackpool, a 50p fare is charged to Disabled ENCTS holders before 09:30 on Blackpool Transport services

 

[geoffk]

Never tried to do this but, living in Greater Manchester and, before that West Yorkshire, where services are relatively frequent, it's not been an issue. I'll ask around to see what others in this area think.
Also there's no 23.00 cut off time in the evening here, which would be a nuisance. I never understood why this is in the terms and conditions, especially as it doesn't apply on Saturday night!

 

[Mwanesh]

You can try and get a disabled pass which offers unlimited travel at any time. Try going to the council offices. I know there are 2 types of pass.

 

[Busaholic]

You can try and get a disabled pass which offers unlimited travel at any time. Try going to the council offices. I know there are 2 types of pass.

The English national scheme for disabled people has exactly the same time restrictions as the age-related scheme, although individual councils may have additional schemes which would only be available in those areas, though I'm pretty certain they'd be few and far between.

 

[markymark2000]

Here is the Stagecoach Conditions of Carriage and though you weren't on a Stagecoach bus, I think this might be how most big operators view it.

https://www.stagecoachbus.com/conditions-of-carriage

When you make payment to the driver or conductor, you should ensure that you are given a new ticket issued from the ticket machine which corresponds with the amount you have paid and is valid for your entire journey. If you wish to have your ticket loaded onto an existing StagecoachSmart card, you must present this upon payment. There is a £1, non-refundable charge for all new StagecoachSmart cards issued on the bus.

If you get a good driver though and the route is irregular, they may allow you to board and then 'pay' (tap your pass) in a few stops when it becomes 09.28.

The only other thing you could do is faff around for 2 minutes and then tap your pass. 09.28 almost all bus companies machines accept concessionary cards from.

 

[wazztie16]

Here is the Stagecoach Conditions of Carriage and though you weren't on a Stagecoach bus, I think this might be how most big operators view it.

https://www.stagecoachbus.com/conditions-of-carriage



If you get a good driver though and the route is irregular, they may allow you to board and then 'pay' (tap your pass) in a few stops when it becomes 09.28.

The only other thing you could do is faff around for 2 minutes and then tap your pass. 09.28 almost all bus companies machines accept concessionary cards from.

0925 is the actual start point of passes, as it allows 5 minutes for boarding time to depart at 0930.

Faffing around, imo, will only annoy the driver enough to get them to report you and potentially refuse you service next time.

 

[TheWalrus]

Here is the Stagecoach Conditions of Carriage and though you weren't on a Stagecoach bus, I think this might be how most big operators view it.

https://www.stagecoachbus.com/conditions-of-carriage



If you get a good driver though and the route is irregular, they may allow you to board and then 'pay' (tap your pass) in a few stops when it becomes 09.28.

The only other thing you could do is faff around for 2 minutes and then tap your pass. 09.28 almost all bus companies machines accept concessionary cards from.

That is not the advice that should be given to passengers with a concessionary card. That is delaying a service for everyone else which is, I believe, illegal, then you will complain when the bus is late.

 

[transmanche]

I couldn’t travel any later due to needing to get to a hospital appointment.

In Tyne & Wear, Nexus allow ENCTS pass holders to travel before 09:30 if they are attending a hospital appointment and can show an appointment card/letter. Do they not offer the same concession in Derbyshire?

 

[markymark2000]

0925 is the actual start point of passes, as it allows 5 minutes for boarding time to depart at 0930.

Faffing around, imo, will only annoy the driver enough to get them to report you and potentially refuse you service next time.

09:28 the machines click on in Cheshire West and Merseyside. Perhaps all areas are different then.

Faffing around I admit is probably not the best idea unless the bus is infrequent (hourly or less). More than hourly, chance it with the driver (as I say, some are nice and do let you tap your pass in a few stops when the clock hits 09.30) or wait for the next bus. If it's an hourly bus then you can kind of understand it a bit more as people can get lonely and if then 2 stops up the road everyone can use their pass, it is a little unfair and for that reason drivers may allow it.
If the bus is every 10 minutes though, just wait for the next bus. It's quite funny where I live as we have an every 10 minute service and elderly get on with their pass in one hand and bus fare in another. They try the pass, see what the driver says and then when they get told it's too early, they pay.

 

[L401CJF]

Unheard of on Merseyside, its common practice to pay to wherever the bus should be at the time the pass becomes valid then scan your pass there. Also worth noting that the Merseytravel issued ENCTS Orange (Disabled) passes have no time restrictions in Merseyside so can be used before 0930. The Cheshire issue ones have the same restrictions as yours, with the exception of Cheshire 'Blind' passes, which are valid any time.

 

[Harpers Tate]

On a normal stage carriage service there would be absolutely NOTHING that a bus driver (whether under his company's direction or otherwise) could do to prevent you from ringing the bell at the "0930+" stop, getting off and then getting right back on again with your ENCTS pass. Forcing you to actually do so is something I would categorise as "jobsworth".

 

[philthetube]

my thoughts as well, don't let go of the bus when you get off though.

The problem I see from the operators view is that all passengers split ticketing, and there could be quite a few on infrequent services, would have to go to the front of the bus to use their passes at the same time and this could cause delays, or loss of revenue if not done.

 

[Geordie driver]

Been a while since I drove a bus, but both tyne and wear and Northumberland would not allow split ticketing. Seems a bit pointless I would never charge anyone who asked.

How about financing the scheme properly and get rid of the arbitrary time restrictions, it's not like all the twirlys are going to get on at the busy times.

Like I said, if a concessionary pass holder tried to pay before 09 30 I would tell them the had a hospital appointment and could get on free.

Mind, you could use your library ticket on my bus.

 

[Busaholic]

How about financing the scheme properly and get rid of the arbitrary time restrictions.

Hear! Hear!

 

[Andyh82]

Bus fares tend to ramp up quickly and then flatten out, so all this messing about is likely to result in almost paying the full fare to their final destination anyway.

I’ve never quite understood why pass holders have to get the first available bus at 0930 just to go into town to the shops. You’re retired so relax!

 

[221129]

On a normal stage carriage service there would be absolutely NOTHING that a bus driver (whether under his company's direction or otherwise) could do to prevent you from ringing the bell at the "0930+" stop, getting off and then getting right back on again with your ENCTS pass. Forcing you to actually do so is something I would categorise as "jobsworth".

They can then refuse you onwards carriage.

 

[Harpers Tate]

They can then refuse you onwards carriage.

I doubt that such a response would fall within the Traffic Rules that apply to Hackney Carriages. Unless the vehicle is full or otherwise legitimately unable to pick up.

 

[richard13]

I think this piece from Stagecoach is probably very true in the general sense; "Many fares and ticketing conditions vary locally and, therefore, each Stagecoach local operating company publishes a comprehensive ‘Guide to Tickets’." Others may not publish their interpretation, and you may need to ask.

Stagecoach general T&Cs states "When you complete the journey for which you have paid or the validity of your pass or other relevant documentation expires, you must leave the bus or pay a fresh fare to your intended destination". This is what I generally expect, but ...

I know on certain rural services it is a regular event for many passengers to go back to the driver and scan their passes at the 09:30 point.
Devon allows passes anyway before 09:30 where the next journey is not until after noon. It used to be a more generous list. However these are infrequent and sparsely used rural services and not frequent urban ones.

Stagecoach SW Falcon leaflet specifically states that "a through ticket must be purchased for the full length of the journey, if you wish to break your journey you must get off and catch a later coach" (The service is hourly). Trent Barton does not permit break of journey on single or returns. What constitutes a break of journey? I think on frequent services this is more the generally accepted policy of get off and catch the next journey. In some situations it will be policy so you can't use it as a way of jumping the 09:30 queue, where there is a regular capacity issue - you would need to get off and join the back of the queue. Other commercial considerations will also apply.

Buses do not allow you to buy single tickets in advance of time or place and so it is not the same as rail travel. Buses have traditionally expected you to pay for the full journey at the time of boarding. However their have always been classic examples of the whole bus alighting at a boundary stop and queuing up to pay for the rest of their journey. Rail tickets can be purchased in advanced and split ticketing would not work if you had to get off and go to the Booking Office and buy the continuing ticket, as the train would have left in the mean time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt that such a response would fall within the Traffic Rules that apply to Hackney Carriages. Unless the vehicle is full or otherwise legitimately unable to pick up.

Er, a bus isn't a Hackney carriage?